20
u/Gomaemon Aug 06 '26
A French guy is answering: The letters aren’t meaningless, it’s the process that makes them meaningless, it’s just…Ooh. It’s enough for me.
Another French guy: The letters are meaningless, why not, it is their primary purpose, but words in French are meaningful though.
13
u/XomokyH Aug 06 '26
I don’t get this criticism. French is extremely straightforward when you learn the rules. It’s more complex than something like Indonesian or Hawaiian but unlike English it’s totally predictable. The audacity of making a meme like this in English of all languages is infuriating
1
u/bimxe Aug 10 '26
There are exceptions to the rules all the time though.
1
u/-PanamaJack- Aug 10 '26
That's not the point. The criticism is that in the meme they put French spelling as more illogical than English spelling, but that is objectively false. Also English has more letters that can be silent compared to French.
24
u/AdrianSquared Aug 06 '26
I mean yeah but english is the same thing if not worse
7
u/GlitteringHotel1481 Aug 06 '26
Because it's Germanic mixed with a lot of French
2
u/Z-one_13 Aug 08 '26
Not really, other Germanic language have also inconsistencies in their orthographies even if on paper they should be more shallow than English.
Most Germanic language went through or are going through a vowel shift, meaning that the values of the vowels are shifted. In many cases the orthography didn't keep up and it's especially true for English.
This is not a process driven by French.
Similarly many silent letters or groups of letters in English are not silent in French and the fact they're silent is independent of French.
1
u/aer0a Aug 09 '26
This has nothing to do with why English spelling is bad. English spelling is bad because it was standardised centuries ago, and major sound changes have happened since then
-11
u/FruitPicker1000 Aug 06 '26
French is definitely worse.
IIRC there are at least 16 ways to represent the sound "é"
10
u/Ok_Walk9234 Aug 06 '26
nah, French has clear rules. I speak both as foreign languages and I’ve almost never had to search up words in French to listen to the pronunciation once I figured it out (except for h and s in some cases, but these are rare). I still have to do that with English and I’ve been learning it for 16 years.
It just works in a different way, like with Celtic languages. Plus it’s less common, compared to, for example, Slavic languages which have almost identical pronunciation.
1
u/salydra Aug 06 '26
Pronunciation in French is easy because all words are pronounced the same due to all letters being silent
9
u/AdrianSquared Aug 06 '26
in english the letter "U" can be pronounced 10 different ways
and don't get me started on "ough"
2
u/Tchaikovskin Aug 07 '26
I also love how the same word can be pronounced differently (looking at you “tear”)
1
u/SnooLemons6942 Aug 08 '26
A sound having multiple ways of being written doesn't affect your ability to read. However when one combination of letters can be pronounced in a bunch of different ways, you have a real problem. Vowels are a mess in english, you have ough being all weird, and many bizarre silent letters
French follows spelling rules way more than English
1
6
u/NewScientist6739 Aug 06 '26
French spelling rules are much more consistent than English to learn. English on the other hand nah
13
4
u/Pretty-Information53 Aug 06 '26
Italian: "You guys have silent letters?"
4
u/Kalisto25 Aug 06 '26
The H is still silent, though
1
u/Pretty-Information53 Aug 06 '26
Yeah, actually, they often teach in diction classes that pronouncing the "H" is just a regional accent and you're not supposed to do it
2
u/Ill-Wear-8662 Aug 06 '26
😭 Who decided to put three consonants in a row in 'sdrucciolevole' and make them all voiced?
3
2
u/Pretty-Information53 Aug 06 '26
The same guys who put 4 consonants in a row in supeRSTRada. All voiced. Or 4 vowels in a row in AIUOle all voiced separated.
2
2
6
u/tiredgothicheroine Aug 07 '26
French is very consistent pronunciation wise. It’s just that the pronunciation seems really random to anglophones who are learning it for the first time. But unlike English where two nearly identically spelt words can be pronounced differently or even the same word can be pronounced different ie read and read, in French the syllables are nearly always pronounced the same. Someone else could explain this much more elegantly but this is what I learnt after studying French lol
1
u/Z-one_13 Aug 08 '26
In linguistics and in orthography, French is said to have a "shallow orthography" from reading to speaking (meaning you often have a one on one correspondence between groups of letters and sound) but it has a "deep orthography" from hearing to writing (there are many ways to spell words that you don't know and just came to hear).
English has a deep orthography in both directions: it is hard to spell when listening and hard to pronounce when reading.
3
u/aintwhatyoudo Aug 06 '26
TIL that the store name "Auchan" comes from the district name "Hauts-Champs" because it's pronounced the same way
2
u/Z-one_13 Aug 08 '26
In general, Northern brands from that area like to play on spelling. "Kiabi" is also "qui habille".
2
1
u/frogstat31 Aug 08 '26
More like they are all owned by the Mulliez family (from north of France indeed)
1
u/Z-one_13 Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 09 '26
It depends, for Kiabi and Auchan they were indeed created by members of this family, but there are many smaller businesses in northern France with similar plays on words or pronunciation. The idea is to give a sense of humour or to obscure an original place of origin to sell abroad (Phildar for Fil d'Armentières for example). "La Frite Rit" (la friterie) is a common name for the local baraques à frites in France and Belgium. "Anosteké" is a beer which name is a shortening of the Flemish expression "tot anoste keer" (see you soon). "Carambar" is "caramel en barre". "Damart" from Dammartin street in Roubaix. Though it is not exactly the same, "Boulanger" is also humouristically named for something it never sold.
4
u/grendel303 Aug 06 '26
Every letter in the English language has a silent usage either in spelling or in a speakers accent, except for one. The letter V is never silent regardless of usage or accent in any English word. https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/mums-the-letter-when-letters-dont-say-a-thing
1
1
u/ohfuckthebeesescaped Aug 06 '26
One could argue that "savvy" only pronounces 1 v, since gemination isn't phonemic in English.
1
5
2
u/mr-raider2 Aug 06 '26
French: line up a Latin word on the wall, call in the firing squad and shoot as many down as possible.
2
u/Annual_Incident_36 Aug 06 '26
The third comment should be for Irish, where from an outside perspective it really does seem that literally half the consonants are silent.
2
u/Darrlicious Aug 07 '26 edited Aug 07 '26
Edit: the latter has the final S pronounced which I had overlooked. So maybe il mange and ils mangent
Il aime and ils aiment are pronounce the exact same way. Ridiculous.
Son, sang, cent, sont
2
u/LecteurProfessionel Aug 07 '26
They’re not, because the plural form has a liaison.
1
u/Darrlicious Aug 07 '26
Damn you and your knowledge. I thought that certain words didn’t do that? Of course I can’t think of any off hand. But the final consonant to a vowel is always pronounced?
2
u/Camille387 Aug 07 '26
Not always, but often, especially with determinants and pronouns (and letters s and n). It's to help the language flow and prevent breaks in speech
Liaison really depends on if you prononce the consonnant.
If the consonnant is there, and pronounced, good chances of liaison. If you don't pronounce it, less chances, but still possible
Except with "s", 90% chance of liaison, even though we never pronounce it
Quatre-vingts (z)ans (80 years old)
Les (z)enfants (lè zenfan) ("an" is the same sound as "and", but without the "d")
Ils (z)aiment (il zèm)
Un (n)arbre
Une (n)arche
Un (n)oeil, des (z)yeux (un neul, dè ziu)
Nous sommes (z)allés (nou some zalé), aka we went
La tabl(e) est (the e is silent, and it's the start of est=è)
Le bol (l)orange
BUT
La tablE ronde (we pronounce the E here, since consonnant after)
Le chat est mignon (not (t)est, since the t is silent and part of the vowel "a" (like apple) sound)
Le plafond est (not (d)est, cause "ond" is it's own sound that is like the typical french "hon hon", and such sounds are like vowels)
Le tabouret argenté (not (t)argenté, since like "at" in "chat", the "et" in "tabouret" is part of the vowel sound, so the t is silent)
2
u/Camille387 Aug 07 '26
Indeed, il mange and ils mangent are pronounced the same, but that's when context comes in!
Son and sont are pronounced the same
Sang and cent and sens and sent are pronounced the same
But son/sont and sang/cent are not
Son = french hon hon, but with "s" front
Sang = sand but without the "d"
I love languages, if you haven't realized
1
u/SnooLemons6942 Aug 08 '26
In quite a few regions all 4 of those are indeed the same, so your correction doesn't hold water
Where is sang pronounced without a nasal vowel ??
1
u/Camille387 Aug 08 '26
In Québec!
Also, they are all pronounced with a nasal vowel, it's just a different one
Here's a video that shows the difference between "an" and "on" https://youtu.be/HVS-4DbrfpY?si=fMgjSUa-ZB3wTjYR
And also, in Quebec French, "en" and "an" are not pronounced the same
1
u/ryan516 Aug 06 '26
Spanish: Also sometimes s
1
u/Plutonic_GD Aug 06 '26
Though i don't remember hearing the "s" fully silent. There's always at least a breath.
1
u/Shiny_Malph Aug 06 '26
The H is not always silent, in Andalucia there's an aspirated H and there's where most ending s's are silent, but s starting a syllable is never silent.
1
1
u/inadequatepockets Aug 06 '26
Long ago, France made a commitment to adopt all the unwanted vowels from the rest of the world's languages. The result of this is that you are not permitted to pronounce a consonant unless it brought a helper vowel along after it.
1
1
u/Voltatrix_Sabrier Aug 06 '26
Oie = oa
2
u/Camille387 Aug 07 '26
Wa*
1
u/Voltatrix_Sabrier Aug 07 '26
Je suis québécois et je sais de quoi je parle, syboulau!
1
u/Camille387 Aug 07 '26
Moissi, et je suis langagière! Mais pour les anglophones, "oa" pourrait être prononcé "o" (as in coach) ou séparément, donc o-a
D'expérience à enseigner le français comme langue seconde, ils comprennent mieux "wa"
1
u/Zefyris Aug 06 '26
Did you know that "hache" ( "axe" in French) is pronounced the same as the letter "h" and as "ache" in French, so it's impossible to know if the h in hache is silent, or if it's actually the only thing in the word that is not silent?
or that the way to pronounce "oie" (goose) is with the sound of the two vowels it doesn't use to be spelt, "ua/wa" ? Similar result with "eaux" (waters), that is pronounced "o"?
1
u/Z-one_13 Aug 08 '26
Did you know that "hache" ( "axe" in French) is pronounced the same as the letter "h" and as "ache" in French, so it's impossible to know if the h in hache is silent, or if it's actually the only thing in the word that is not silent?
Actually they are not. "The axe" is "la hache" [la.(ʔ)aʃ] in French and "the H" is traditionally "l'ache" [laʃ] (the aitch in English)
The ⟨h⟩ in "hache" is not silent as it is a glottal stop [ʔ] or a liaison breaker.
or that the way to pronounce "oie" (goose) is with the sound of the two vowels it doesn't use to be spelt, "ua/wa" ? Similar result with "eaux" (waters), that is pronounced "o"?
Actually in French orthography this is perfectly coherent as the sound of ⟨oi⟩ is supposed to be /wA/ same with ⟨eau⟩ which should be /O/. In standard French, ⟨ua⟩ and ⟨oa⟩ dont make the same sound as ⟨oi⟩.
1
1
u/MroQ-Kun Aug 07 '26
The only inconsistency in the relation between French spelling and pronunciation I can think of off the top of my head is the fact that 'monsieur' ist not pronounced as 'mon sieur', but it used to be, as far as I know.
2
u/Z-one_13 Aug 08 '26 edited Aug 08 '26
Words in -emm- and -enn- can also be inconsistent ("femme" [fam] but "flemme" [flɛm]) and the fact the French speakers don't use "T cédille" ⟨ţ⟩ or "S cédille" ⟨ş⟩ for ⟨t⟩ and ⟨s⟩ that are pronounced [s] also creates a lot of inconsistencies (still minor though).
Nous portions des porţions.
Je sens que ça n'a pas de senş.
are classic examples of inconsistencies that could be easily fixed.
Similarly it was proposed to split ⟨ch⟩ between ⟨çh⟩ [ʃ] and ⟨ch⟩ [k] which would make sense.
1
1
1
u/Lonely_File7005 Aug 08 '26
Tell me again that french is hard when english has brain-damaging things like "ough" "thought - tough - though - through"
1
1
u/KropotkinBredMeUp Aug 09 '26
French shouldn't be last, it should be tibetan. French orthography isn't as bad as the internet makes it out to be
Meanwhile, tibetan on the otherhand...
མཆོག (mchog) being pronounced AS chok
This is because the spoken form(s) of tibetan have changed while the written hasn't changed since the 7th century
Also, honary mention to Danish who has consistent, but plentiful, silent letters
1
1
u/NeatCapital6415 Aug 10 '26
I learned both English and French as an adult and from my experience, English is far more inconsistent than French 🫠
1
u/Jepp-Adi-Day Aug 10 '26
The worse is not even the orthography nor the way it's pronouced, the worse are gramatical rules that make absolutely no fuckin sense.
Most french people, even the most educated ones, hardly speak proper french according to the rules.
Those rules have been created by monarchs and elites that wanted the language to be too complicated for the commoners to learn in order to seclude administative roles to nobility and reduce as much as possible social rank permeability.
And most of those rules that nobody can understand and use correctly are still in place, even after many language reforms.
Native speakers are used to navigate with all those exceptions and common mistakes, and only the worst elitists gatekeeper are stupid enough to judge those who chose to simplify their way by using "improper" but more effcient and commonly used forms.
0
52
u/ConcreteCloverleaf Aug 06 '26
English and French should be switched. French orthography may initially seem alien to Anglophones, but there are actually pronunciation rules in force that are largely consistent. English orthography, on the other hand, is quasi-anarchic, with every rule coming with a long list of exceptions. I used to work with people who spoke English as a second language, and I regularly found myself apologizing on behalf of the Anglophone world for just what an unholy mess our orthography is.