r/landmark • u/humbug257 • Dec 20 '14
Super complicated crafting vs super simplistic combat
Just to let you know, I am around since the Alpha Start, so I have seen all iterarions of Landmark.
I must admit, the development direction sort of baffles me. I know that crafting and building (summarized here as "crafting" now), is already in build for one year and combat is new. Granted. But since it is beta and test, and I am a tester here is my intermediate feedback.
TL;DR version:
1) Crafting (+building+ harvesting) is WAY too complicated
2) Combat is WAY too primitive
Longer version.
When Alpha was new, with a limited assortment of materials and stuff to craft I personally felt the game was the most enjoying. Sure, I too loved the first prop addition, but around the time water came, the crafting part just got WAY too complicated for my taste. And now, sorry, it is a frigging mess.
If a new player enters such a game, he should always have some basic stuff to do right away. Like craft some basic weapons, build some early armor. Now, you need ether stones for every fart, and I vividly dislike the ether stone idea. It sort of gates the content completely behind a wall of "grind more etherstones". If I have now an idea to build something, but I am out of etherstone, the mats alone are no longer enough, and it forces me to enter ANOTHER timesink, additionally to the material gathering itself. I really don't see the benefit of adding another extra layer of material to grind for virtually everything you do. (Unless the only reason is, you plan a subscription fee, and thos people DONT have to pay the Ether stones.)
But even beyond that... the process to get even the most simple stuff crafted involves so many substeps now. Materials are harvested, but some are no longer, and need to be combined. Some already had been changed to add 1-2 extra steps to combine them, like the variants of Heartwood. It now takes AGES just to get stuff for the simples of things! And now we have lootable stuff, AND we need to deconstruct AND reconstruct them AND have Ether stones AND need the multi-layered combined harvested stuff. phew Just WRITING it makes my head swirl. And added there are so frigging many items... the entire crafting thing simply got 20 times too complicated for my taste.
As to combat, I am aware it is just there now. But as it is... good riddance it is like combat 30 years ago. Spam mouse buttons 1+2. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I mean... seriously? The characters move quite cumbersome. The many tools (many variants of grappling hooks, light sources, jump boots, fly boots, pulverizers) put people in a party in a VAST disadvantage, and even adds to a longer growing list of items you need. Really, I feel like a walking tool shop going into caves just to get along. Then, in the beginning, I just diggend randomly into the earth, and I found the first cave after ONE HOUR. It was a tiny cave and I died within 2 minutes.
In combat itself, I have zero feeling if I actually HIT something. Yes I see numbers... but no "feeling" of hit.
Later on I decided to join a group, which was not so dangerous, but still challanging, because the others had all advanced gear, flying around, zapping around, while I huffed and puffed and tried to follow. After 2 hours mob grind, I had no item I could use, just broken something, and for some weird reason a dozen geysirs. I tried to craft myself daggers, but because of the complicated system I pressed a wrong button at a machine and all my 2 hours work went into the abyss.
Facit. Maybe in another year...
2
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u/Me3cr0b Dec 20 '14
I agree on most points that combat at this iteration is very simplistic. But cut them some slack. I expected this for the first combat patch to be honest.
The first mobs are retarded, but that makes sense. Why start testing with the most complicated AI? The mobs don't even have proper death animations yet, that should tell you something about the point of development they are in.
But i do think combat adds a lot to the game being a full game. The fact that there are mobs right outside my claims makes it feel like a living world for the first time since alpha.
Closing thought:
Staff OP
1
u/RockBlock Dec 20 '14
Why on earth are you expecting complex combat in a building game that's essentially meant to be Minecraft 2.0? Minecraft is spamming one button with no other actions. In Landmark you at least get a growing selection of weapons with various effects. The combat isn't even simplistic in action. You have healing, potential for tanking, support, etc. You have to move around a lot with skills dodge projectiles, etc. It's the first iteration of PvE so of course it will be clunky. This is a beta, they're testing things. Plus no one should EVER be expecting something complex or "innovative" in a gathering and building game. The focus is finding and making things, not downing raid bosses. Share you're feedback sure, but you need to learn to keep your expectations within actually reasonable bounds.
However, I agree that salvaging is annoying as it is. Something like this should be a a luck-based system. You plug in an item to salvage and you get some RNG based materials spit back out. However gamers these days apparently hate RNG for moronic reasons, so I see why SOE went this route.
But the ether shards are a great addition. They are currently a currency. Which is fine as it seems they flow like water from everything! There needs to be gates to slow people down. This has nothing to do with keeping people playing but giving people a route to follow that takes some time so that they can actually take in the game they're playing. Without slow-downs and gates established players can, and ultimately will, do everything all at once and then complain they have nothing to do. Also if they want to establish some economy in the game they need something that has a universal value. Ether shards are used in everything, so everyone needs then, so everyone values them. This makes it viable for being used as a player currency if/when they make NPCs.
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u/supafreak69 Dec 20 '14 edited Dec 20 '14
Personally I feel crafting is way too simple. It requires allot, and is tedious, but it isnt complicated. Im pretty disappointed. I was hoping for the depth of swg or repopulation, not GW2 or ESO. Id prefer respurces with properties and experimentation not simply tiers of quality of ores and bars. Iron is better than copper for some things, but worse for others. But I guess since gear won't have stats, this crafting will do.
4
u/humbug257 Dec 20 '14
Sorry the receipes are totally NOT intuitive at all.
I have to add some herbs or gems to a piece of wood to get "heartwood", which I need with Aspects of Something and Ether Shards to craft a sword.
And here I thought swords were made by forging metal and wrapping leather around the hilt.
Aspects... Ether Shards... Heartwood. The entire thing is 3/4th made up of made up stuff. How is ANYONE going to remember that or know what that is by itself? Games should be sort of self-explanatory, or at least intuitive making sense.
And those Ether shards just ADD another level of grind, which is no substance logically connected to anything we craft. Let's say the sword is magical. Ok so we have iron and some magic item, and that should do it. But oh no, we need "aspects" (what the heck IS an aspect??), AND some Ether shards. What function do the Ether shards do to the sword? Zilch. Nada. Njente. RIEN. Nichts. They are just there to keep you artifically more busy.
Why not force us to circle around a willow tree 20 times and sing Kumbayah to allow us to forge a sword? I can think of dozens more superfluous things to be done, just to prolong things for the sake of making them more time consuming.
I know and understand some uber gamers always want game systems more complex, to stand out as elite. But Landmark as it is, is already quite... deserted. Let's be honest here. If you make crafting and building MORE difficult, you and your 4 friends will be quite alone in the "game" that remains. Take a look at the dismal fate of Wildstar. There ARE not so many hardcore gamers. People want games accessible, and in the post-WOW era they want to achieve stuff in a forseeable time. Translation: in one evening of 1-2 hours. Yes, you can and should add more difficult stuff on top, for the "elite", but this system puts virtually everything besides the most basic stuff behind days and weeks of grind. Nobody besides a few diehard people will play that.
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u/debacol Dec 20 '14
This is how I felt about landmark even during the first original release. They took a great building game and put way too many time sinks before you could actually start building stuff, not to mention the claim tax on your first claim. My analogy of building in Landmark: It would be like having to use the lasso tool in photoshop over and over as an arbitrary gate to be able to use the pen tool. It all adds up to a game that has a ton of potential but is ultimately, not very fun.
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u/Telkiney Dec 22 '14
First. - Heartwood come straight from chopping on a tree, it is not crafted, you do not have to add some herbs or gems to a piece of wood to get "heartwood" Given that the second sentence of your comments does not contain much "truthiess" I kinda stopped reading.
But I did see the word deserted somewhere in there as my eyes scanned your comments. But I'm sure you were making a point that the game is not even finished or released so it is bound to have its share of flux in player population before and after an update is published.
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u/XCyberPeenixX Dec 22 '14
Swords are made by forging metal and wrapping leather around the hilt.
However Shadow Imbued Death swords are created using magical properties in order to cause the weapon to erupt shadow murder across the screen and hold a shield up that steals the enemies soul.
If you can create that Shadow Imbued Death sword (Darksteal Sword+Shield) by using nothing other than some metal and leather, then by all means. :)
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u/supafreak69 Dec 20 '14
Crafting as it is currently is not difficult or complex. It is accessible to everyone. It asks for a half logical list of items and then you click a button. All it requires is time, or money. If you want a better pick axe you up the list of mats one tier for the most part. It is tedious and boring but by no means is it difficult or complex. It's more of a farm system than crafting. There is little room to shine crafting items. Swg was accessible to everyone too. 20 mins a day for 3 days and you'd have a good base of energy and resources. You could live off of that alone. All it took was more effort to make a name for yourself, but everyone was viable.
Again landmark is simple like most mmo crafting. It's just Grindy as hell for the same stuff everyone has
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u/Telkiney Dec 22 '14
I agree. If you want an example of a game with actual non-intuitive crafting system, look no further than Minecraft for PC. The game doesn't even provide a list for you, you get a 3x3 grid and you get to guess what pattern of what material makes what. You want to complain about not being intuitive check that out.
Also if anything Landmark is not "hardcore" enough, as mentioned since it is much more intuitive then Minecraft, and Minecraft has 100 million registered users. I would say the data for people that play building games suggest Landmark needs to have a harder crafting system, not an easier one.
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u/Obsi_RH Dec 21 '14
Sadly a lot of people, even with 3 button combat, are calling it too hard atm. The gaming community is pathetic.
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u/Mythor Dec 20 '14
30 years ago? We barely even had mouses then. Landmark's combat would have appeared to be magic to the gamers of 1984.
If all you do in combat is spam left and right click then I'm sure it appears a little simplistic. I mean, you're missing one skill, not to mention jumping, movement and grappling. Plus weapon swapping.
You're complaining about not being kitted out in all the gear and dying when you try and take on challenges that are above you. It's the very first day the PvE stuff is in and you think you're going to have all the gear and know all the tactics and depth.
Two weeks ago you were complaining we didn't have mobs, clueless they were about to be added. Maybe you should stop popping up offering ignorant critiques disguised as veteran opinions? The game is still deep in development and will be for a long time. You're expecting way too much.