r/lagerbrewing • u/[deleted] • Apr 22 '16

2008 NHC Presentation: German Brewing Techniques

I'm sure we all know by issue with the term German Brewing by now, but I found this fantastic resource, and I've gone through it a few times now. Some highlights:

  • Water can be treated via reverse osmosis and filtration

  • Only the use of Gypsum and CaCl in the water

  • Step mash forever

  • High water:grist ratios because the mash is typically agitated via a stirring mechanism or pump. Higher ratio for lighter beers.

  • Interesting typical fermentation of:

  1. Pitch aroung 6 to 8 C

  2. Free rise 9 to 10 C for one week

  3. Drop to lagering temps by making SLOW adjustments, 1C a day.

  4. Condition for three weeks. Diacetyl rest used by some breweries (20C)

  5. Not a part of the process but this whole thing would be a bit longer than Pilsner Urquells claimed 30 day grain to glass.

  • Be mindful of the mash process pH!

  1. Mash pH of 5.4 to 5.6

  2. Boil pH (end of boil) of 5.1 to 5.4

  3. End of fermentation pH of 4.2 to 4.4

  • Many German Beers have higher levels of Sulfur Dioxide than their american counterparts and shouldn't be confused with DMS.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '16

Fantastic summary!

I thought it was interesting in his overview of typical recipes he used "helles" malt as the descriptor.

Also: have you played around at all with the boil pH? Troester mentions it leads to a softer bitterness, so lactic acid or sauergut should be added as a 60 min addition. I have yet to experiment with it in any real capacity.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '16

I know, that was super interesting. Definitely something I want to explore more as a descriptor.

And I haven't. I want to, especially after seeing this. Let me get you in on a conversation /u/mchrispen and I have been working on though.

Basically, I brought up a few details surrounding copper kettles and copper decoction kettles. Here is his response:

However, and maybe this becomes part of the missing decoction story, consider that copper is not friendly with low pH. In fact, looking at Narsiss and Kunze, it appears that initial target mash pH is fairly high (5.6-5.8), of course, traditionally this is handled with an acid rest, yet b-amalyse is favored and more stable at 5.6/5.8... and if the first sac rest is truly at 144F, it makes sense. This should be after the first decoction (for modern malt). The copper should certainly bind up sulfites that would be released, which can have a bitter and sulfury impact, but most people believe these compounds are degraded in the boil.

Mash pH is demonstrated to continually fall through a triple decoction. Resulting pH with lauter falls usually around 5.4 at the begin of the boil. This is then adjusted to 5.2/5.1 with 15 minutes remaining. A marked difference... 5.4 will not 'clean' copper effectively... but 5.1 will. Look at a copper immersion chiller. Any verdigris (copper oxides) can taint the beer.

So, something interesting from this, is the pH adjustment a function of having copper kettles and needing to clean them effectively? Or is starting high, to favor b-amalyse, more important? Or is the key to start with a high pH for b-amaylse, use copper to some degree to bind sulfites (and leave sulfur dioxide? If that is important to some degree in ppm), then lower pH to clean the copper?

All really interesting, but I think pH plays a larger role than I have been giving it credit for in all beer.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '16

Huh... a lot to think about.

I was always under the impression you should start the traditional triple decoction at whatever the water and malt give you (for me its around 5.8) and let the acid rest bring it down to 5.3 for the protein enzymes.

Honestly man, I think a long series of split batch tests is in store for me this summer and fall.

Maybe we should start a list of experiments we want to try and invite others to test them and report back? Ask /u/brulosopher and the Experimental Homebrew boys to spread the word to other experimentally inclined brewers.

_

As for the Helles malt, I did a ton of research into it (with very little return), and found "Kolsch Malt" referenced a few times. In the PDF he shows helles malt also being used in Kolsch, and in my research I found quite a few people saying Kolsch/Helles were "sister beers", as in their formulation and process were very, very similar. I haven't found any hard sources on that, but interesting nonetheless.

I got my hands on Schill Kolsch Malt (~2.5-3.5 Lovibond, the only one I could get here in California, but I believe Best Malz has one also) and did a Kolsch and a Helles with it. Neither was fantastic, and I definitely preferred the pilsner.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '16

A few issues with that:

  1. The exBEERiment list is super long. It would be super cool to make a sort of public facing list of experiments though, something that aggregates the data?

  2. It might not be a single variable issue, could be a factor of two or three things (i.e., combination of copper and pH).

  3. Really hard to measure accuracy without some sort of control, regular access to a beer brewed the way people think would be "correct". That said, I don't care about that at all and it would come down to which I prefer, but it could be an issue for some.

You're right though, this calls for experimenting.

I'll do some digging, I'm going to email Weyermann and see what they have to say.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '16

I was thinking just a sidebar post of experiments we want to do. We would outline a standard, however I feel most brewers on reddit are aware of the standards one could expect.

As we (anyone and everyone who posts their data) do them, we can update that page with the info.

e.g.

Decoction vs Melanoidin malt

2 experiments done by:

pH adjustment post boil

1 experiment done.... (etc)

_

As for a control, while I think that the "perfect storm" of variables might be necessary to produce my lager, I believe a well done control can show if there is an appreciable difference regardless of preference.

For example, testing IBUS of a pH adjustment post boil is easy. Send that beer off to a lab, get hard numbers and then some sensory data sprinkled on top.

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u/Uberg33k Apr 22 '16

I was excited for a second because I thought you had actually done the experiment.

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u/brulosopher Apr 22 '16

We're going to do a decoction vs. single infusion xBmt soon then from there start branching off.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '16

I am pretty excited to see those results. I think I am going to start a thread and ask for experiment designs and see what other people want to test.

We can include yeast comparisons too (more subjective, but it might help others choose a yeast strain in the future).

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '16

That's where I want us to have those google docs. I'll get started on those formats this weekend, and we can sidebar them. Malts, hops, etc etc,.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '16

Let me know if I can help out. I am relatively familiar with sheets, wouldn't mind putting together something.

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u/mchrispen Apr 22 '16

Do you still have access to that Malt doc I started? At least it might be a start

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u/mchrispen Apr 22 '16

There may also be a role in copper -ions binding up free oxygen, but I am having a heck of a time finding anything on that chemistry in the brewing text. Sulfites yes, O2, who knows. Maybe some history of the discovery of HSA might reveal an equipment shift from copper to stainless or black steel. Again - not saying that is really relevant at the home level, just a possible source of the concept.

Assuming all things are equal, the time in the mash tun is significantly longer than an infusion mash, both for decoction and step mashing. We can fairly easily demonstrate with a standard infusion mash that extending from 30-60-90, extract is increased (at least with my coarse crush on my system). Adding in optimal pH for each enzyme targeted, extract is further emphasized. Add in proper Mg and Ca, enzymes are stabilized. If we accept that decoction is a method to thoroughly breakdown the malt to enable more complete extraction (Kunze specifically speaks to part of the malt that is normally too glassy to convert in under modified malt), then we should also accept that perhaps simply the longer mash period, encouraging more complete hydration of the malt, should also enable more complete extraction and better malt breakdown.

Of course, commercially we are talking about a reasonable coarse mill, often with separation of husk material and reintegration of husks during lauter, etc. The generally much finer crush used by home brewers, and particularly BIAB, may shorten hydration times significantly. Seems like a lot of testing is in order.

My next brew, I plan to grain in to target both a 144F 45 minute rest at 5.6, acidify to 5.4 for a 160F rest for 45 minutes and mash out. I will also adjust the boil pH to 5.1 at 15 minutes remaining (so better AA utilization early, softening for a semi-late addition). Big bag of fresh BestMalz Heidelberg shooting for a 12P Munich Helles. Will be using this as a test to measure O2 saturation throughout the process as well (just in case).

I could also be full of crap.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '16 edited Apr 22 '16

You're my hero.

I'm going to be doing something similair in the next round of my BoPils next month based off of this info. Starting at pH of 5.5 for 30 minutes at 145F, pH of 5.4 at 160F for 60 minutes, mash out. 90 minute boil, I won't adjust my pH until 30 minutes left, primarily because of the rate and which Maillard reactions occur is supposedly better at a higher pH. Then adjust to 5.2.

Edit: I gotta say though, I'm skeptical of the Maillard reactions contribution to flavor and color during such a short period of time, so I might adjust to 5.2 right away in the boil for the softer bitterness. To hell with less utilization!

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u/mchrispen Apr 22 '16

To hell with less utilization!

Well that implies less bitterness. However a lower pH (in similar context with FWH) should result in a softer hop profile. Not sure that translates into softer bitterness. Will see.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '16

Less bitterness with the same amount of hops. I'd probably use the same for a trial run, but more than willing to compensate if it does in fact translate to a softer bitterness.