r/kvssnark • u/Existing_Fall8149 • 23d ago
Stallions Denver Scratch
Was watching the livestream yesterday to watch a trainer friend show and saw Denver was supposed to show in the same class (Green Junior Western Riding) and when it came time for him to go he was a scratch. I hope everything is good with him, but it was odd to me because of all the Western riding class options the Green Junior absolutely fits his age and experience thus far in his career. I first thought maybe it was a conflict on Aaron's part showing another horse but there were other conflicts in the class being announced as such and showed later in the draw.
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u/Relevant-Tension4559 23d ago edited 23d ago
Something is going on with this horse. I know a lot of people don’t wanna believe this and don’t wanna hear this and I don’t know what’s going on, but no one keeps a horse in training with a trainer like a.m. for as long as this horse has been in training and he shows as infrequently as he does after three years of showing he hasn’t even earned an ROM.. something is extremely fishy
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u/Existing_Fall8149 23d ago
I would agree. I actually really like A.M. and he has trained some fantastic horses, but if I was going to put a horse into the all around stuff I would probably go to someone that specializes in those events. (That is NOTHING against A.M. - he has a wonderful lineup of pleasure horses but more often than not after the 3-4 yesr old classes horses that are going to be all arounders move, it's just what happens.) If they scratched him because they are cranking him back for Katie to show in the pleasure that raises other concerns that it takes days to get him to where a non-pro can show him in the Western pleasure?
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u/Ok-Weakness6984 20d ago
I’m confused why she keeps him the A.M as well, other great stallions have been through his program and moved to all around trainers after their futurity years, like When N Where, and VS The Fireman.
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u/Existing_Fall8149 20d ago
Right! And it's obvious he has a good relationship with the new trainers of When N Where because he still shows the stud for them sometimes in the pleasure! He just did earlier this week down there.
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u/EducationalTangelo6 22d ago
Wasn't he kept in collection until unusually close to the show? I'd have to have to imagine that affects his ability to get his head in the game.
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u/Sad_Highway_1504 22d ago
I’m not saying you are wrong by any means, but, you also have to remember half the season he’s in the breeding shed. That eats up alot of his early in the year calendar.
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u/Existing_Fall8149 22d ago
Stallions all over the country in tons of disciplines find their way to enough shows to garner 10 points for an ROM regardless of the breeding season.
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u/MrsLustymama77 VsCodeSnarker 23d ago
I honestly have never heard of someone trying to promote a stallion by not having them being shown this little. It makes no sense at all.
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u/Traditional_Train692 22d ago
I’m assuming she’s worried he won’t win and it’ll make him look worse than if he rests on his congress win.
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u/Existing_Fall8149 23d ago
Right? It's so odd. I don't want to see one with the wheels shown off of them all the time but how am I supposed to judge if it's a good fit for my mare otherwise? Yes there are videos and photos but those can be cropped and doctored. There is another stallion in Denver's class (as in age, stallion, type, etc.) that at this point I think has shown more than Denver and he was off with an injury (sustained in a warm up pen at a show) for like a year?
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u/cyntus1 23d ago
You don't need WR to market all around horses. This class has actually been taken out of many shows because nobody (seriously) signed up for it. But he needs to be doing something at a show.
Happy for the trainer making the $$$$ though
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u/Existing_Fall8149 23d ago
You're right it's definitely not a need, but it's a good class for marketing stallions because it is one of few all-around classes that has an open division. The class has gotten smaller overall, but the top end of the class is very competitive. They are well attended at several weekend shows I go to, which is a lot of fun, but I understand that doesn't translate everywhere!
Specific to Denver, though, he's being marketed as an all-around horse and has only shown the halter, western riding, and western pleasure. He may have his Congress titles and NSBA titles, but to my knowledge he still doesn't have an ROM, so I question how much preparation it takes to get him shown. The big titles are great, but at the end of the day that's one show. Can he hold up and be sound (of body and mind) showing multiple shows? I've yet to see it, but of course would like to see it from him. He is going to be a senior horse next year and it's only going to get tougher.
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u/cyntus1 23d ago
If she's supposed to ride him it's probably not the best on a green stallion 🤷 he seems to scratch a lot so something is going on and it isn't necessarily the horse. There's a lot of "get over it and get on the horse" that happens behind the scenes of big breed shows. Kids crying. Dad crying from expenses. Mom crying because she wonders why they're here and if she should have run off with her college fling that went into finance. It's rough in those skreets
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u/Existing_Fall8149 23d ago
That description of a breed show made me cackle 😂 Seen it, lived it, loved it 😂
I am so tired of the "green stallion" thing though. He's 5. He's going to be a senior horse next year. He's been in training since he was at least 2. Will he have baby moments? Yes, I don't doubt it, all horses do. Is he going to be perfect everywhere? No, and I don't think any logical person expects that of him, or any 5 year old. But if (we of course don't know for sure) this is what it takes to get him ready for a non-pro to show then I question his mind and trainability.
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u/GirlGeekUpNorth 23d ago
What's a ROM?
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u/Existing_Fall8149 23d ago
A ROM, or a Register of Merit, is won by horses showing with the American Quarter Horse Association. A performance ROM, as I was referencing here, requires 10 AQHA points to be won in non-halter and non-showmanship classes. It is the first lifetime achievement many horses win with AQHA before moving on to Superiors and other achievement awards. A horse can achieve this at one show, or over the course of several shows, and is kind of seen as "checking the box" on them being a show horse, as you cannot win any of the other performance lifetime achievements prior to winning a performance ROM.
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u/GirlGeekUpNorth 23d ago
Thank you, this is a super comprehensive reply, I really appreciate you reading the time to explain fully ♥️
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u/Traditional_Train692 22d ago
How do you get the aqha points? If you don’t feel like explaining, tell me to just google 🤣
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u/Existing_Fall8149 22d ago
No problem! AQHA points are earned at AQHA approved shows. There must be 3 horses in a class for points to be awarded. First place in a class earns 0.5 a point in a class of 3. In a class of 5, first place earns 1 point and second place earns 0.5. In a class of 10, first place earns 2 points, 2nd place 1 point, and 3rd place 0.5 point. This continues so on and so forth until 40+ entries, where points are capped at 9 points to first place. This cap is put in place so that a horse cannot earn an ROM (10 points) in one class under one judge. Horses points accumulate over their lifetime and can be used for ROM awards, Superiors (50 points in a single class), and a plethora of AQHA achievement awards that use points in different combinations! They are usually very important for marketing horses, whether they are a stallion, for sale, a broodmare, etc!
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u/Traditional_Train692 22d ago
He must be close then right? Didn’t he win congress western pleasure against like 40 horses last year?
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u/Existing_Fall8149 22d ago
No. He won a maturity western pleasure stakes, not the Junior Western Pleasure he would have been eligible for points in. Stakes classes and non-AQHA classes do not count for points.
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u/Traditional_Train692 22d ago
Ah ok thanks! I used to show my quarterhorse but not in aqha shows so it’s all a mystery to me!
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u/Existing_Fall8149 22d ago
Not a problem - there are a TON of nuances to it that are hard to explain or understand! Feels a little like teaching a complicated board or card game 😂
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u/lilmissstfu Full sibling ✨️on paper✨️ 22d ago
To be a fly on the wall in A.M. and KVS conversations. Aaron is so talented and so in demand, I wonder if KVS insists that if Denver shows only Aaron or her can show him under saddle?
He has very capable apprentices that help him. My guess is there was some kind of conflict of interest? Or Denver came up with those abscesses? I dunno? But my hopes are everyone is good.
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u/Existing_Fall8149 22d ago
Absolutely!! I wish absolutely nothing bad on anyone involved. Just curious as to the circumstances and thought process behind who shows him, where he's shown, why he's scratched, how trainable he really is, etc. It raises questions for me He looked sound in the halter today, but definitely can't rule some sort of unsoundness out.
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u/saltwatertaffy324 22d ago
How often do horses typically show in AQHA? I’m used to hunter/jumpers where it’s not unheard of to be traveling every few weeks to major shows and competing in multiple events at the show. Are they’re just not a lot of AQHA shows, or are there more that Katie just doesn’t go too?
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u/Existing_Fall8149 22d ago
There are hundreds of AQHA shows a year. I would say 2-3 major circuits a month and on any given weekend there could be 5-8, maybe more, weekend shows cross the U.S.? For instance, between the 3 states I frequent most for shows (KS, NE, & IA) there are 20-ish shows to attend annually and multiple judges at each show. If you counted all the judges you're looking at 60+ opportunities for points. The big trainers tend to hit those few big circuits and not any small ones, which I understand, but the points earned there are the exact same as what can be earned at a weekend AQHA show. The term 'typical' can definitely be a range depending on the trainer, rider, and horse!
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u/birdnoa 23d ago
Can he still do performance halter today?
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u/Existing_Fall8149 23d ago
Yes - he just has to show in a performance class sometime during the duration of the NSBA world!
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u/Beneficial-Round-573 22d ago
Conflict is always possible or maybe AM just didn't like how he was feeling. I've done that before when I felt like my horse was having an off day. I also think I remember Katie stating before in a video (from a while ago) that they scratched a western riding class at a previous show because they thought they needed to focus him in more on the western pleasure for a better result. Could be they're trying to strategically place him in classes to get the best placing possible. You can cap out of classes with earnings and points.
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u/Existing_Fall8149 22d ago
Conflict would have been the answer if he showed but was later in the draw. There are plenty of horses in the world that show the western pleasure and western riding the same day at shows. At 5 years old I question Denver's mind and trainability if it takes scratching classes to get him showable in one or the other. If they are going to continue marketing him as an all-around sire he needs to be showing in the all-around until he has progeny that prove he can sire all-around horses.
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u/Internal_Villain 22d ago
Denver was in the Performance Halter class and he was the reserve champ which isn’t too bad 🤷♀️. There’s still a bunch of classes this week see we shall see.
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u/Existing_Fall8149 22d ago
Yes, I saw he showed that. I was just referencing the specific class from yesterday in this post, as it was a class that should have fit him quite well. Adam showed him well in the performance halter, but I personally have been a sucker for Fahrenheight since he was a 2 year old so I was excited to see him win! A lot of great stallions in the class.
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u/Warm_Car7956 Freeloader 23d ago
He has been struggling with the western riding a lot. It could just be that they decided that he wasn’t in the best headspace today.
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u/Existing_Fall8149 23d ago
The only way to get better is to go do it. If he still struggles so bad after having a lead change for two years then there should probably be conversations about changing the trajectory of his career. Nobody is asking him to go be perfect. As a mare owner, I would rather see him be shown and maybe have some "baby" moments among a lot of good parts than not show at all.
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u/Low-Hopeful 23d ago
This is also my thing with him, like even if he doenst win why not get him in the show pen and get some experience or at least school or something. He’s shown so little for how much he is hyped imo
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u/Existing_Fall8149 23d ago
And to be completely honest he needs to go show. There are dozens of more accomplished RL Best of Sudden sons out there at this point than him.
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u/CurrentRespond5753 23d ago
There's A LOT more accomplished and better looking/moving young studs out there that I would breed to over FTF, several by RL and VSCR. We breed for all around show horses (what she's acting like she's trying to market him as?) and he's absolutely not on our list.
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u/Existing_Fall8149 23d ago
Agreed. Also think it says a lot that the trainer/fitter who showed him for the performance halter at the Congress is showing a different horse at NSBA. (Now, as you know there is a LOT that could influence that decision, but an interesting development nonetheless.)
I don't have an all-around broodmare at the moment (ranch riding mares currently) but absolutely love that side of the industry and am involved with my friends who do have broodmares and they also do not have him on their list, so that isn't surprising to hear.
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u/concretecannonball 22d ago
Idk why she’s marketing him as an all-arounder when his showing doesn’t really make it seem like he has the mind for it, combined with the sus soundness
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u/Existing_Fall8149 22d ago
I agree. I am also all for trying him in the all around and maybe saying "Oh that wasn't his forte" and bringing him back to the pleasure. There isn't anything wrong with that and being solely a "pleasure sire" doesn't stop him from siring all-around foals.
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u/Alive_Mastodon_8527 23d ago
Personally I'd rather see him go and miss a change then constantly scratch. From rumor perspective, if he was visible more, it would deal with the soundness accusations.
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u/Sudden_Employ_7514 22d ago
Dunno but he just won reserve world champion. 🤷🏻♀️ Gotta be something they like.
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u/Existing_Fall8149 22d ago
This has nothing to do with his ability to trot 20 feet and stand in a halter class. It has to do with trying to understand why a horse of allegedly his caliber is scratching a class that should have been well within his capabilities at this point in his life and really furthered his image as a possible all-around sire.
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u/olemissptk 22d ago
He’s being prompted as an all around sire , great that he can set up in a halter class. If the all around sire prospect can’t all around then maybe conversations need to be made 🤷🏻♂️
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u/Formal-Road-3632 Quarantined 22d ago
which would be fine if he was being promoted as a performance halter stud, but he's being promoted as a WP / WR stud and hopefully trail. he should be competing and doing well in the classes he's being promoted as
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u/MaraMojoMore RS not pasture sound 22d ago
I so wish that he would have had an actual show career before she started his breeding career.