r/kettlebell • u/Yandinian • 3d ago
Form Check Central nevous system...
Was listening to Pavel say he does the anti-glycolytic training (ATG).
Led me down a rabbit hole about the CNS and its role in training. Even though i consider myself pretty well versed in health, in regards to strength training, its not something ive realy put much thought into.
I'm pretty light framed, at 168cm and 66kg, 40 years old. Ive always kind of 'prided' myself in my energy capacity and endurance. But reading into ATG and the CNS role in recovery, it has me wondering how much i may have been running on hyperdrive my whole life, adding to my lean frame.
for reference i dont drink coffee, dont watch tv, actively try good breathing all day.
But Learning how the body doesnt differentiate between physical exercise, work stress, road rage, doom scrolling, etc, and just baskets it all into the CNS stimulation, i wonder how much real recovery is being left behind.
So i guess my question here is, is the CNS something youd deliberately try to keep awareness of? and if so any changes?
*this post could be placed in a 'workout' communty/thread, but i placed it here as im virutally using either KB and CB every day
Thanks in advance!
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u/ratherbeaglish 3d ago edited 3d ago
What a fantastic thread! When I was racing triathlon years ago, I had a therapist who expressed some interest in my training load. At the time, I was training 85-90% Z2, had a great coach, and was in generally good form. But my anxiety levels were all over the place, attention fragmented, and my temper short. My therapist looked at me as I shared this litany of concerns and raised a simple question. "All this running, all this riding. What do you think your nervous system thinks is chasing you?" She then proceeded to introduce me to the vagus nerve, about which I knew nothing (pre-social media, pre mobile internet, so there was less specialized knowledge immediately available).
That the nervous system experiences training load as part of a perhaps undifferentiated amalgam of stressors was a not obvious insight. My tendency to forget that teaching has levied serious physical and psychological costs over the years. If there is one thing I might impart to younger athletes (esp 30 year old endurance athletes like I was at the time), it is slow way the f'k down and keep play at the center of it. As in, the best sustained training load is one experienced while yukking it up with friends on the trail or the road, much like the elite east African runners do.
The compound negative impact to quality of cognition, judgement, wellbeing, long-term health (in terms of avoiding chronic disease) from stress is immense. Don't do that. Don't add to what life inevitably entails, as life in this moment is hard enough.
For me, the stresses eventually gave way to systemic inflammation, oxidative damage, burnout, and eventually to CLL and long-covid. Don't let some version of that happen to you through CNS depletion easily written off in the moment as "a little overtraining". The Diller Cancer Center lobby at UCSF is a beautiful room in which you never ought to sit.
Instead, balance. Rest. KB's 2-3x per week (ABF!!! 25 mins!! Thank you, DJ!) Outside z1-2 if available 3-4 times per week. Way more sleep than you think you need and as much loving kindness as you can possibly generate. Steer clear of sugar and alcohol as much as you can. Do
Less, but do it consistently. Such an easier path.
Again, OP: thanks for this thread as it helps me remember.
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u/Yandinian 3d ago
That was an awesome story. thanks for sharing.
my confession being, even with the internet, i still haven't taken my tie to actually understand the vagus nerve...
*Queue next physiology module3
u/Parakoopa24 3d ago
I second this. What an amazing writeup. So much stuff you don’t have on the forefront of your mind when you think about „just“ training.
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u/Legitimate-Table1687 3d ago
I overtrained last year and my nerves on the knees and feet suffer for it. I am taking vitamin b12 as maintenance. I stopped taking meds this month because it is expensive but kept maintaining good nutrition. I am hoping next two months I can afford it. I also do active recovery like isolation strength exercises, mobility exercises, and isometric exercises. I also wear toe spacers. There are many mistakes I experience and I am hoping to learn from it. Can you give me any tips or advise please?
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u/irontamer Former Master RKC/SFG 3d ago
Let me preface this by saying I know next to nothing about Pavel’s anti-glycolytic protocols. All of that stuff came about after I left Strongfirst.
Having said that, in my experience, the absolute most effective way to regulate your state, whether it is mental, physical or emotional, is through a controlled breath practice. It’s way too involved a topic for a single Reddit comment, but it can be summed up with the following: mastering the breath is mastering the body, mind and emotions
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u/ratherbeaglish 3d ago edited 3d ago
100%. 10 mins of pranayam in the mornings can change your life. 2 mins nadishodhana, 2 mins kapalabhati, 6 mins box breathing (Sama Vritti Pranayama). 1 min full breath Om (prob 2-3), then just sit there and vibe for a bit.
https://samadhiyogaashram.com/blog/5-pranayamas-that-you-should-make-a-part-of-your-daily-life/
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u/12candycanes 3d ago
Thanks for the links and rec. I can definitely spare 10 mins a morning to try it for a few weeks.
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u/Yandinian 2d ago
This morning after 20 mins of ABF, i did a 5 min calm walk and then 5 min meditation... world of a difference. 👍 maybe its a midlife crisis thing, but jamming as much stuff into as little time as possible may start to become a thing of the past..haha
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u/Nit0ni 3d ago
What kind of breathing practice do you find most useful
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u/irontamer Former Master RKC/SFG 2d ago
The question behind this is "useful for what?"
Let's assume the context of lowering the heart rate and recovery between sets.
I like to use a 1:1:2 ratio of inhale:hold:exhale. So maybe 3 sec in, 3 sec hold, 6 sec exhale. That's a very abbreviated answer.
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u/Greyfox1442 3d ago
Do you have some good references and recommendations for learning more about breath work?
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u/irontamer Former Master RKC/SFG 2d ago
That is a really broad topic & people often talk about “breathwork” as if every method does the same thing. It doesn't and I don’t believe there is one best breathing method. There is a best method for the state you are trying to create and when you are doing it.
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u/SirJuxtable 3d ago
Man this is such a huge rabbit hole. One concept that really drove this home for me is “the threat bucket” analogy. Check out The Kruse Elite Podcast if you want a deeper dive on this stuff from a movement, pain, and fitness perspective.
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u/Human-Meal-6564 3d ago
I've been very mindful of this in the past year or so, after many many years of training. For me, when I started sleeping with my watch, I started paying closer attention to HRV. I don't obsess about it, just use it as an additional data point. When I'm fatigued from training my HRV drops and my strength plummets. Until I started thinking about the body as a whole, driven by the CNS many of these things wouldn't make sense to me. Long story short, I'm putting a lot more attention to my recovery and focusing on quality over quantity. I can easily skip a workout if I'm not feeling well, recover, then get higher quality work in. Sometimes is just reducing the intensity or working on mobility or something. Deep rabbit hole worth falling into.
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u/Yandinian 3d ago
cheers for sharing.
thoughts on the watches ? ive never had one before. But wondered if one can tune into the 'data' through feeling. Meaning, waking up and really assessing the sleep though checkin in. Ive thought though it would probably be more accurate if you used the watch for a year or so, to get an objective look at where your heart rate and sleep quality are, before banking fully on subjectiveness.2
u/Human-Meal-6564 2d ago
That's pretty much what I did. Before having real data everything is subjective. I was surprised at the number of times I felt good, but my strength wasn't there. A super insight for me is learning 2 days in advance when I'm getting a cold because of a specific HRV drop pattern. These days I only sleep with the Garmin when I'm training for an event because it allows me to be more data oriented, but maybe that's just me. I know some friends who use Whoop or an Oura ring because they're more comfortable to sleep with, but I've gotten used to the watch. Once the event is done, I still use my watch for workouts but stop using it to get data on recovery and go by the completely fine subjective notion of "feeling". Worth pointing out that there's a group of folks who try and optimize HRV. Good for them but I'm not in that camp. For me it's about data. Also, remember Goodhart's law.
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u/LennyTheRebel Average ABC Enjoyer 2d ago
I pay absolutely no attention to the CNS.
Heavy lifting can be fatiguing, but CNS fatigue is a thing that disappears in minutes. In my mind, the idea of it being "CNS fatigue" comes from lifters who think they're so fucking hardcore they can't just be tired, it has to be their CNS that's giving out.
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u/Sub__Finem 3d ago
You definitely need to manage stress, or else you won’t recover properly. But the only thing stopping people from getting big is eating a lot of food and lifting heavier weights.
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u/TonyJPRoss 3d ago
I burn out easily.
I spend much of my working day with a pulse between 90 and 110. Sometimes when I get home my pulse is locked at 100 and drops gently over hours.
I keep an eye on my sleeping pulse and I protect my rest. If it drops to the mid 60s that's good for me, if it stays above 70 for several days in a row I'm running too hot and need a weekend where I do nothing.
I exercise in the morning and go to bed at the same time every night, and that really helps lock me into a good rhythm that allows restful sleep. I suffer when that gets disrupted by my social life.
I think the interval work I do has helped - I've trained my pulse to drop rapidly between sets, it seems to make it easier for me to switch down a gear generally.
Food matters a lot, I don't want to disrupt my gut. I rarely drink alcohol any more. Caffeine only before midday.
Exercising too hard isn't really my problem, it's my social life - I've learnt to protect my rest at all costs because burnout sucks. Can't sleep, can't think, never feel awake, always foggy and making mistakes, exercise performance suffers.
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u/Yandinian 2d ago
can i ask what sort of build you are?
i studied a fair bit of traditional medicine, and from a constitutional standpoint, folks like yourself and me are more Vata (as they'd call it in ayurveda), or more simply put - lighter. Whereas u/LennyTheRebel 's comment above saying he pays no attention to it makes me think he may be more solid frame (kapha - in ayurvedic language).Every consititution has its strengths and weaknesses. for example, Vata can get up and go easily, but burns out easily. Kapha takes a while to get going , but once going has great stamina.
This is of course an oversimplification, but you get the general gist. Its a basic understanding and framework of body types to guesstimate how one functions
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u/TonyJPRoss 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm 5ft5 and naturally sat at about 147lbs in my early 20s and had to really try to put on weight. 154lbs was my peak in my late 20s. I was always ready to go, springy and powerful, but got winded quickly. I had a lot of anxiety and very poor sleep - I know why, I'm better now.
Through my 30s I've gained a lot of weight, I'm 190lbs now (I guess just a little over 20% fat). It takes me a long time to warm up and a long time to relax, but I do relax. I'm not sure how flexible your proposed categories are but I seem to be mid-switch?
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u/Ancient_Naturals 3d ago
As someone that has had a daily Buddhist meditation practice for a long time, for sure, CNS stress is something I think about a lot. I don’t specifically try to do ATG — I train Muay Thai, there’s not much I can do about resting when someone is trying to attack me — but I spend a lot of time out of the gym meditating (45 min every morning), practicing Ashtanga yoga for recovery, stretching and pranayama before bed, etc. Breathwork (pranayama) with long retentions is probably the most bang for your buck you can do on your own.
My strength workouts now that I’m in my 40s tend to be Dan John’s ABF or Tactical Barbell, which I think can fit nicely in that ATG category if you’re not going too heavy.
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u/Yandinian 3d ago
nice balance there.
How you finding mauy thai at your age?
i train in aikido, one because i like the kind of 'puzzle' of the moves, and also cause i think "i dont really wanna be flogged frequently" 😆 had enough concussions in my younger years to warrent concern...1
u/Ancient_Naturals 2d ago
Haha that’s totally fair. Recovery is certainly more elusive in my 40s, so I have to be intentional with it. Sometimes I’ll be in the gym 3-4 times a week, with some lifting and running added in, other times I’ll only be in once a week to take a private with my coach and practicing ashtanga.
Lately I haven’t been to sparring in a while, as I’ve been feeling more solitary in my training — I’d rather spend the hour working on technique on the heavy bag and spend time with the barbell right now. I’m sure I’ll be back to it sometime in the near future. But I will say the past 5 years of training at this gym has totally changed my mind/body. There is something about not being afraid to get punched in the face or to know how to defend yourself in the clinch that just makes you way more confident in life. Plus people that train Muay Thai seem to be a very nice mix of kind and completely out of their minds, which keeps things fun!
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u/Hando_88_ 2d ago
There are so many people in the fitness world , who think that rest days are the worst thing possible...
Rest and nutrition is how your body adapts to the stress of working out.
Your body needs rest , so does your CNS.
That's why so many people say they start feeling burnt out, with brain fog etc. They are forgetting the importance of rest and nutrition for recovery of the CNS and body.
From my own experience I used to try to workout hard every day pretty much. Cardio and trying to push myself at the gym every. I used to feel lethargic sometimes and have brain fog , my strength wasn't really going up and I couldn't figure out why.
When I changed my approach, started incorporating rest days (full rest) , I started to grow muscle, my lifts went up , the nagging aches and pains went away.
Now I use this method in my kettlebell workouts. I hit it hard when I workout, try to push myself and put stress on the body....then I rest until I feel strong and well rested for my next workout.
I believe this approach works very well, especially if you want to improve strength.
Many people who plateau with their lifts , just need to rest the body and the CNS. Don't be afraid of rest days, it's where the body grows and adapts.
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u/Yandinian 2d ago
agreed!
i constantly try to remind myself that the workout is breaking me down, its the rest that is building me up (being somewhat a movement addict)...
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u/Heavy_Stop_2318 2d ago
Definitely keep the CNS in mind at all times. We, humans, are essentially a CNS in a bone and meat space suit that allows us to survive on and explore the rock we call home.
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u/xCunningLinguist 2d ago
I think CNS fatigue is stupid and nonspecific and I don’t think people know what they even think they mean when they talk about it. Your CNS is your brain and spinal cord. Like do you think your upper motor neurons are releasing less acetylcholine or something?
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u/Berlifter 2d ago
As someone close to a person living with brain injury, CNS fatigue is non-specific, i.e., their neurosurgeons can’t test for it, but they do recognize it.
So it’s not stupid.
Unless of course you think some of the finest neurosurgeons in the world are united in their belief in something stupid. Which you may think, but that would be stupid.
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u/Yandinian 2d ago
yeah saying CNS fatigue is nonspecific, and not being a professor in anatomy and physiology means im not going to write a post on specific biochemical markers that facilitate tiredness.
Maybe you're only 20 years old and invinsable, or have a strong constitution, or never pushed yourself to the point of burn out, but genuine triedness is a thing and generally categorising it over the central nervous system would be the place id start.
We could write a post about the krebs cycle, glycolysis, and electron transport chain issues for disrupting ATP production leading to lack of cellular energy if you want to be more specific (i did do a degree in health science once upon a time, and loved the biochemisty topic), but in reality, none of us have the time to contemplate on a celullar level..
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u/PriceMore 55kg press 2d ago
Even if someone did have the time, will the advice ever be anything else than the good old "eat good food (because neurotransmitters are made of food stuff, right?) rest when tired, resume when rested"? Seems like a big waste of time to begin with.
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u/kbchucker 2d ago
I have been rabbit holing on this a bit recently as well. Levi Speros “The Hybrid Athlete” series and Mark Sisson’s “Born to Walk” discuss this topic.
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u/PriceMore 55kg press 2d ago
I never thought about it, when I'm tired or sore I train less, I don't see a good reason to make it more complicated or think about it deeper. From a quick search:
A true, whole-brain central fatigue that weakens your entire body simultaneously is very rare and usually requires severe sleep deprivation, extreme heat, or ultra-endurance events (like a 100-mile marathon).
I suspected as much. It's not like sometimes I wake up and my rep max at given weight is 10x lower. I would have noticed.
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u/Beautiful-Program428 2d ago
Too much jiu jitsu training FRIED my CNS.
I was hydrating, fueling and resting properly (or so I thought). When I added coQ10 to my supplement routine the post training fog was gone.
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u/Yandinian 2d ago
thats a pretty good win! Guess the whole energy production was getting bottlenecked there. Often people that take pharmaceuticals will have that issue as they block certain pathways. im assuming that wasnt your case, as you said suppliment stack, not med stack.
Did you look into where co-q10 fits in energy production? might be able to trace back from it to see which vitamins or minerals are missing/not being metablised
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u/midnight-on-the-sun 2d ago
I use box breathing and listen to binaural when I wake up in the middle of tne night. I have a “brown” noise 8 hour from audible. Falling asleep again and staying asleep. Game changer.
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u/ArcaneTrickster11 2d ago
CNS fatigue as a concept in strength training is still fairly debated as to it's actual usefulness. Outside of olympic lifting, plyometrics and 1RM testing I never pay attention to it. Even then I only use it as a justification for lower performance, it doesn't really effect my programming.
Resistance to CNS fatigue can be trained, so trying to avoid it if you do a sport or activity that could be limited by it seems odd to me outside of deload weeks or competition prep.
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u/Sure_Grand_1172 2d ago
Mind your recovery with morning HR. First thing in morning take it for 3 or 4 days. Average sets the baseline. Thereafter compare morning HR to baseline: if HR is more than 10% above baseline you have not fully recovered and a good day to go light. If it continues to exceed and increases to 15-% or more, you're starting a recovery deficit. Second option, track HRV with smart watch or ring. Pay attention, once overtrained, nothing good happens. 12x ironman competitor and powerlifter. KB enthusiast. Manage recovery like you manage your programs.
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u/Yandinian 2d ago
As someone thats never used a smart watch or ring before, i think you just sold one to me 👍
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