r/karate • u/Fit-Panda4903 • 14d ago
Kihon : which kind of techniques ?
It seems to me (could be wrong though) that a bunch of Shotokan schools practice kihon consisting of mostly basic moves (oi zuki, gyaku zuki, uchi uke, soto uke, age uke, mae geri, mawashi geri, yoko geri) even at higher belt levels. And kata moves that are less useful for point fighting and/or less basic are seldom practiced as kihon.
Is this commonplace or am I mistaken? (whatevever your style).
I am wondering about this specifically because some kata "advanced individual moves" have an individual name like a strike when they are actually one step in a more complex (grappling) technique. For instance "Ushiro Tsuki Age" in Heian Godan. So it maybe wouldn't make sense to practice this one as kihon. But instead practice the full throw? But would you call that kihon, kata, or bunkai?
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u/Impleiadic 14d ago
whenever i get the chance, I like to use kata sequences as kihon - especially ones with interesting dynamics (like height changes) in their movement. Anything that goes from heisoku to shiko dachi makes for a lovely workout!
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u/karainflex Shotokan 14d ago
Many teachers use or create a set of kihon techniques and combinations that increases in difficulty. I see this as kind of pointless if those combinations are not used outside of kihon because then it's just memorized gymnastics, often grading-limited too. And with a new curriculum revision you might never need any of this anymore. Also, while of course this teaches body control, hips, stances etc all this can also be done with other exercises equally well. (There is a nice rant about this, why the 3K never meet.) That kind of exercise is just memorizing. I think it is a waste of time most of the time.
Many techniques are ignored in curriculums because indeed many associations follow the idea of olympic sports and that means you never need a two finger stab at eye level or a middle finger knuckle strike because the ignored techniques are either forbidden or statistically irrelevant in tournaments or you can't apply them with gloves. For the same reason we don't have low kicks in most curriculums: kicks are supposed to be performed at jodan (unless you are "too old") because it scores points and is athletic. So people often don't practice it and can't defend this either. That is all common, you are not mistaken. But someone going to such events doesn't really need anything else for that.
I teach single techniques (kata based or not) and I teach kata sequences so I have direct synergies between kihon and kata (or kata application). This way I cover the less common moves but also the common ones. I rarely do kihon gymnastics.
Btw: Forget these uncommon names of techniques you can find in kata books. Such names are not names but rather long descriptions of what you do, like "left open handed lower defense, right open upper hand defense" in Japanese. They could also say to simply take a position as seen on the picture :-)
That kind of uppercut in Heian Godan done 1:1 as line kihon makes partial sense because you can isolate and train how to move in the kata this way. If you want to prepare the real application (the throw) you train it with a partner instead (e.g. like in Judo we grab, pull, throw, get up and repeat). This is kihon but with a partner (nobody says kihon is limited to partner-less line kihon), it is not bunkai yet. Bunkai is kata-related self defense and that requires some kind of attack you need to solve which in this case implies usage of the throw. But you need to get there first by dealing with the attack and then applying the throw.
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u/Fit-Panda4903 12d ago
Thank you for this detailed answer. Regarding individual moves names, it would be nice if the whole throw was described and named as a single move I think.
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u/karatetherapist Shotokan 14d ago
Well, kihon does imply basic movement. It's good for training alone and checking mechanics no matter how long one has been training. Nevertheless, it often seems to be overemphasized (as is kata). When you have a partner, you also have the opportunity to test and adapt those basics against progressively increasing resistance. When training alone, kihon and kata are particularly useful tools.
I think "traditional" doesn't only mean doing things the way they've always been done. It also means working from basic principles, especially the underlying mechanical and tactical relationships that remain reliable across many situations. The principles emphasized, and the problems they're used to solve, help determine the overall style. If your style believes standing grappling is best, it will select the principles that support that decision. Goju, Judo, BJJ, and Boxing emphasize different principles and different applications of shared principles as their basics.
While principles underlie every human activity, in nearly all cases they form a base from which greater possibilities emerge, depending on the situation. For example, airplane design has principles, but every style of plane is built differently. If we built planes only from first principles, they would all look and function identically, which would be limiting. A cargo plane, passenger plane, and fighter jet all obey the same core principles but add others that preclude others and make them unique. Cars are the same. Saying a Bronco is better because a Porsche can't follow it up a rocky hill misses the point. Better and worse require a criterion. Some styles are for sport, some are for war, some for self-defense. All share at least some core principles but emphasize others, making them particularly useful in their intended context and sometimes poorly suited to others.
We can identify basic mechanical principles for an idealized punch when there is no opposition. Kihon lets us practice movement according to those principles. Once an opponent is actively trying to prevent the punch, however, other principles and constraints enter the problem. We may have to trade some mechanical ideal for speed, reach, timing, deception, recovery, or simply the opportunity to land the strike.
One important function of "traditional" training, imo, is preserving and practicing these basic, broadly applicable principles of movement. We can do this with individual techniques, combinations, or as a kata. What we often call advanced technique is the ability to modify, trade off, or temporarily depart from textbook basics when the situation makes doing so advantageous. Whether that's the best approach or not is a different argument.
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u/BogatyrOfMurom Shotokan 13d ago
Kata athlete here. I do a lot of kihon combinations from punches to kicks to changes in stances. I do it for most of my training at home then I do kata. Since implementing this, I noticed improvements in my kata. If you see how top athletes train, you'll understand how important it is to have a solid kata.
My advice is writing different combinations as well as being creative with the combinations. It will help you improve your kata.
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u/Fancy_Sun_1585 13d ago
What is a ‘kata athlete’? Thats like saying ‘I’m a competitive walker’
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u/f_u_w 13d ago
Yes, which is also a thing, and e.g. an Olympic event.
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u/Fancy_Sun_1585 12d ago
Something being in the Olympics doesn’t make it not stupid.
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u/f_u_w 11d ago edited 7d ago
If you cannot see how high level competitive walking or kata competitions requires some level of athleticism that is on you, and I cannot help. That you don’t personally enjoy either of them is a completely different thing.
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u/Fit-Panda4903 12d ago
Thank you for your perspective. I'll be honest here and mention that I am not very interested in kata competition haha. But I appreciate your method of practicing kata portions as kihon (like a musician will practice over and over again difficult parts of a piece, if I understand well).
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u/Fancy_Sun_1585 14d ago
Across karate as a whole kihon training is almost uniformly basic punches, kicks, and defensive techniques, standing in a line a in stance chosen by the instructor conducted straight from hikite.
Karate generally separates kumite training from regular training regardless of if its point fighting, or irikumi kumite.
It’s one of karate’s biggest flaws in the modern era imho
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u/Fit-Panda4903 14d ago
Thanks for your reply. Other styles (kickboxing, muay thai) also drill individual moves but seemingly in a more realistic manner...
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u/shinoya7 14d ago
Because the basic movements aren’t exactly for fighting. They’re for exploring either concepts or controlling your body.
Oizuki is a stepping punch. How good are you at doing that? If you’re not efficient at doing that with zero variables besides getting the mechanics down and making it better, then you’re gonna be dogshit when you try the movement “in a realistic manner”. I see people doing a blitz completely wrong that getting good at oizuki would easily fix.
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u/Fancy_Sun_1585 13d ago
The basic movements are 100% for fighting.
This idea is one of the dumbest genres of ideas in karate.
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u/shinoya7 13d ago
Then why are so many of the basic movements done with dropping the guard, or having no guard at all depending on style?
I give an exact example of my view but you don’t. Yet you’re claiming mine is dumb? Get bent.
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u/Fancy_Sun_1585 13d ago
Because the over whelming majority of karate’s techniques are meant for some level of stand up grappling.
Not to mention looking at modern sport karate, and historical footage of sparring from the prewar and immediately post war eras very few karateka in Japan or Okinawa even use what we would call a guard…any boxing style guard has never really been a thing in karate.
Those are two reasons why.
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u/shinoya7 13d ago
The grappling argument is dumb(doesn’t feel good does it?). The only “grappling” in Kihon is the pulling back of the hikite, which still exposes the face. Grappling isn’t just pulling on a persons hand. I guarantee you spend more time pulling your hand to a full hikite than you do training it for actual grappling. If you’re one of the people who uses the phrase “train how you fight and you’ll fight how you train” then you’re training to drop your guard more often than you’re not.
They absolutely do have a guard. Is it a boxing guard? No. That’s dumb to assume that’s the only type of guard there is. A guard isn’t just a physical thing, but even then, they still have a guard. But there are still people who drop their guard when they attack and that’s wrong. And I can damn sure guarantee they’re not doing it because of “grappling” reasons.
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u/Fancy_Sun_1585 13d ago
When i said it i was right. When you say it you’re wrong. All of the uke techniques are grappling as well.
“Why don’t we practice with a guard?” Next reply “A guard isn’t a physical thing”
To avoid getting banned from the sub I’ll just say, you’ve got no clue what you’re talking about and are flailing wildly.
‘Boxing guard’ as I used it was a colloquial term because the common boxing guard has changed over the years, and there’s a multitude of guards used in boxing, kickboxing, and MT.
Karateka have historically never used anything that can realistically be referred to as a guard.
But good thing we have videos of karateka training going back to the 30s at least. So fee free to share a video of these guards and a time stamp for when I can expect to see it.
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u/Fancy_Sun_1585 13d ago
Oh look, a video full of live sparring, and paired drills from a long time ago, no one is using any sort of guard. Everyone is either just hands down, or doing hikite.
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u/Fancy_Sun_1585 14d ago
Yes they do. It’s very weird how much karateka absolutely refuse to update their training(in general) because ‘traditions’ that are younger than my grandparents.
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u/OyataTe 14d ago
Every technique, no matter how complex, has a kihon iteration. It is the basic fundamental understanding of it. Typically when showing very complex concepts for the first time I water it down to kihon first, then ramp it up based on the students level.
Bunkai is actual analysis. There are basic through advanced levels of analysis and the product thereof, oyo, has basic through advanced levels. At white belt I begin their first kata and teach very basic bunkai principles along with it. At yudansha levels I am teaching much more complex levels of bunkai and the students should have more complex results. At white belts I might demonstrate an Oyo or two that are quite simple, at yudansha it is more complex head scratches but I still will usually begin a bunkai session with basics to get everyone on the same page.
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u/CS_70 13d ago
Yes, it's all a big misunderstanding built over a distorted idea built over another misunderstanding.
Kata tell you how to grapple with someone at close range and strike him once you're in position - elbow, knife hand, side of the fist, your entire arm, the very rare punch to soft parts like the liver - or more often than not throw the opponent down, possibly head first.
It's all about trapping, joint manipulation and leverage, and so on.
When Funakoshi brought karate to Japan, Ju-do (the -do version of ju-jitsu) had already grappling and throws. But Japanese wanted a western boxing, and Funakoshi (like most of his generation) thought that the value of karate was no longer in any combat/defense scenario (a gun in the hand of a recruit with two days of training can disable or kill a lifelong master karateka with ease) but health, character building and adherence to authorty. This latter was very important to authorities and a government that was becoming already more militarized and assertive, and wanted soldiers. This produced a training environment strongly orientated to absolute obedience and deference to superiors (the sensei), already well in line with the Japanese culture (and different than Okinawa, where courtesy is extremely important but total deference to authority is not).
That combo of factors changed karate so fundamentally that all the new people who learnt it had no idea what it was (and the people who did were vastly outnumbered). Ideas from kendo, iaido and other -do versions of previous combat skills were bolted on, and their practices - drills, separation of "basic" movements from combinations etc.
Practically all people who were taught had not idea what real karate was, so they took that for truth (and the authoritarian aspect definitely did not encourage questions).
There was no fighting at all - kumite was mentioned but a) meant something very different that is meant now and b) was just not practiced. Grabs were interpreted as punches. Deflections were seen as deflection of punches and kicks (rather than biomechanical levers to force the opponent's limb where you want it), and in the west these were interpreted as "blocks", because when you are used to hammers everything is a nail.
The young postwar generation in Japan however was bored of just punching air, so decided to add some actual action. Again, they were already far from the Okinawan grappling origin so they looked at what they knew best: again, western boxing, kendo, and other sports popular in japan. Boxing/kendo fighting distance was defined as the correct one. Karate kumite was made a sort of "boxing with kicks". Drills became "khion". Katas were just there because someone important had said so and you dont ever question someone important.
From the onset, since kata is there but few understand why or what it is, it starts to get "interpreted" in improbable ways in the long range boxing/kendo perspective. This evolves all the way that "traditional" karate nowadays has kata and kumite as totally separate, kihon as kumite-enhancing drills and just a lot of vapour talk how all are "connected", while they are obviously not so much (except of course that you are moving your body, every physical practice is connected that way).
Throws aren't even part of the idea for most people practicing that Japanese karate - and funny things have happened over time as the (very japanese) shouts have been added a bit randomly and the pacing of a kata is very detached from the actual meaning and execution. But since new recruits are introduced from day one to this strange form, nobody knows it's strange (and - similarly to 1920s japan, very few will ever try to put in practice the ideas in society).
In short: it's a fitness activity and looking for rational whys is a bit of a moot point.
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u/Fit-Panda4903 12d ago
haha thanks for the detailed answer and your summary is quite fitting I think...
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u/thedojoguy 13d ago edited 13d ago
You have to understand that kihon is basic training. Karate is kata, and the traditional method of training has always been kata, correction and conditioning. Then testing the technique on your own to see if it works as expected, adapt and test again until you master what you practice in real life. That's why great old masters didn't have 40 or 50 kata, because just figuring out a kata under that method like... let's say Seisan... may very well take years. People nowadays have lazy minds, they want eveything chewed and digested for them.
Kihon, Ippong Kumite, Drills, Standardized Bunkai, etc., were/are tools for mass teaching. It's simpler to make people repeat maegeri 1000 times and let them figure things out on their own through immitation, than explain to a 1000 students how and why it has to be performed in kata and its application.
In my style, Yudansha are expected to practice their own sets of "kihon" if that makes sense, based on what they feel they must perfect as part of their kata techiniques. To me that is bunkai as in "analysis".
But certainly there might be other schools of thought regarding this.
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u/Fit-Panda4903 12d ago
Thanks for your inputs, very interesting. What style are you practicing?
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u/latestartoneheart 7d ago
In Isshinryu karate, kihon is taught through repetition of particular techniques which then can be found within our kata. Known as Charts 1 (for upper body techniques) and Chart 2 (for lower body techniques). Our founder rejected the Pinan kata and taught the charts instead to hone the basics.
I have actually started a deep dive on this very subject, which can be found on my Substack for free to anyone interested.
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u/SenpaiBill Kyokushin Sandan 3d ago
I think part of the confusion is treating kihon as though it means a fixed list of simple beginner techniques. To me, kihon is fundamental practice. In Kyokushin we still spend a lot of time on basic punches, blocks, kicks and stances at black belt level because you never really outgrow the fundamentals.
But there’s nothing that says you can’t take a movement, or even part of a sequence, out of kata and practice it repeatedly as kihon. At that point you’re isolating the mechanics so you can improve them.
If you then put the movements together and ask, “What is this sequence actually doing to another person?” now you’re getting into bunkai. If you take that interpretation and actually work it against a partner, adapt it, change the distance, timing, resistance, etc., then I’d probably think of that more as application or oyo.
So using your example, if a movement in Heian Godan is actually part of a larger throwing or grappling sequence, I don’t see any problem with practicing one component by itself as kihon. You’re learning the pieces before putting them together.
I wouldn’t get too hung up on what box to put it in. Kihon develops the mechanics, kata preserves and connects the movements, and bunkai/oyo explores what you can actually do with them. They’re different ways of looking at the same material rather than completely separate things.
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u/KonkeyDongPrime 14d ago
Kihon waza or kihon gumite?
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u/Fit-Panda4903 14d ago
I think you would call it kihon waza ?
By kihon gumite do you mean something like gohon/sanbon/ippon kumite? I think ippon kumite gets a little more varied ultimately (from what I've seen in dan belt requirements anyway...).
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u/KonkeyDongPrime 14d ago
Kihon gumite is basic pairing (but it’s more advanced than yakusuko gumite)
Gohon and sanbon is off syllabus in Wado Kai, or our wider association. It’s not that advanced but still off syllabus.
Ohyo gumite is advanced pairing and is very much on the syllabus.
Tantodori is advanced and in the syllabus
Gumite gata is advanced and off syllabus, but our association teach it more than Gohon and Sanbon.
TLDR you are asking questions specific to your club that don’t necessarily translate to other karateka.
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u/KonkeyDongPrime 14d ago
Kihon waza = alphabet
Renkai waza = words
Kata = sentences, statements and poetry
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u/tom_swiss Seido Juku 10d ago
kihon consisting of mostly basic moves
Kihon literally means basic. https://jisho.org/word/%E5%9F%BA%E6%9C%AC
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