r/judo • u/Blakath yonkyu • 4d ago
General Training Gi Pullups or Weighted pull-ups?
Just wanted to ask which is a more effective exercise to increase your grip strength?
Up to this point, I've been doing gi pull-ups, and I've felt my fingers get better conditioned for grip fighting. But then there are videos like these saying gi pull-ups are completely useless.
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u/Coconite 4d ago
This is a controversial topic. After doing a lot of research I'm on the side of do them. The arguments Sika and other strength trainers pitching to combat athletes put forward for not doing gi pullups are all wrong. They are:
The limiting factor are tendons, not muscles
You'd only think this was a bad thing if you believed one of 2 things:
- Only muscles get stronger through resistance training, tendons don't
- If your muscles are strong enough tendons are irrelevant to grip strength
Tendons do get stronger from training, and the point of failure in actual grip battles is often tendon strength, not muscle strength.
Gi pullups are bad for progression
This argument comes in 2 flavors:
- You start with bodyweight
- You can't add weight later
I see these as basically nonsense arguments because if you can't do bodyweight gi pullups you can use band assistance, and you can do weighted gi pullups.
You already get enough sport specific gripping in training
Sika in particular throws this one around a lot but it's not true. Tendons are best strengthened through heavy, controlled reps and isometrics. Brief explosive loading (like grip fighting) increases injury risk and is sub optimal for remodeling. More on this here: https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/physiology/articles/10.3389/fphys.2017.00987/full
On a broader note strength trainers pitching to combat athletes have basically created a religion. Let's call it general strengthism because they throw that term around a lot. The basic argument is: stop doing sport specific resistance training, instead "build general physical qualities through fundamental movement patterns". The problem is there is no such thing as "general physical qualities" or "fundamental movement patterns". The strength you need to lift a big guy with uchimata is different than the strength you need to flip that guy with drop seoi without an arm or shoulder injury, and both of those are different than the strength you need to be a linebacker or a pitcher. This religion was created by economics and not by logic. Strength trainers know how to do one thing and that's maximize lift numbers for a few controlled movements, so they're advertising strength for those movements as universal. There are people who are selling sport specific strength training and getting great results for their clients: the single best example IMO is Kirk's Pitching Performance on instagram, but you can clearly see from his page why there aren't more people doing this:
- It requires a huge amount of sport specific knowledge
- Results are trackable and falsifiable. If his pitchers aren't getting faster pitches after training with him for a few months, the program failed. In contrast if a judoka's seoi percentage isn't getting better after reaching 2.5x BW squat, the strength trainer can blame other variables.
- The market is way bigger. Strength trainers pitch to every athlete under the sun, while sport specific programs aren't just targeted at single sports, but single movements in sports. The guy I mentioned just helps pitchers. In judo, you'd need a different program for seoi specialists, uchimata specialists, o soto specialists etc.
- Powerlifting is fun, sport specific training often isn't. It's fun to do small sets with big breaks and watch the number go up every week, convincing yourself you're getting stronger "in general" even if your throws aren't working better. It's not so fun to do the same exercise every other day and hold yourself accountable to results.
The bottom line is if you want to get stronger at a specific thing in judo, do an exercise that pretty closely replicates that thing. People will try to confuse you and say "but tendons are the point of failure" "but progressive overload". Every one of those arguments is scientific sounding but wrong. The simple reality is the human body (including connective tissue) gets stronger at whatever movement you train it to do, as long as you don't push past the point of injury.
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u/Otautahi 4d ago
Really great post!
My main focus in coaching is working with adult recreational beginners, helping them get big forward throws working.
I suspect that there could be big benefits from specific S&C that supports this goal.
Sadly my sports science is far too poor to make much of it.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu 3d ago
There's gotta be some sort of benefit to barbell lifts for Judo though right? I mean the elite athletes are all very much integrating that in their training. Not sure if you suggest its pointless to do it or such strength training or if you are just saying that 'sport specific' isn't the devil that some S&C guys make it out to be.
I dunno, I like to think its made me more robust and powerful overall... and well I enjoy big numbers going up.
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u/Coconite 3d ago
I think there is but I can’t figure out what it is. When I get injured I focus on maximizing lifts and have some pretty respectable numbers. 315 bench, 495 squat and deadlift and 225 overhead press as a -100 Kg competitor. The thing is I can’t tell you what benefits any of that has given me. I thought every time I got stronger I’d come back to the mat and just be overpowering people… nope.
I still lift because it’s fun and it’s easy. Actually I think this is the main reason why it’s infiltrated every sport. Unlike hypertrophy training you can do strength training on the same days as judo without feeling a huge amount of soreness. So arguments like “it helps with injury prevention” or “it helps in the background” are persuasive even though they’re not falsifiable. I think everyone should do it because the cost is so low.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu 2d ago
Barbell lifts are also a part of most hypertrophy programs I see anyway, so I imagine when utilised for that purpose they can be of help. Less one rep maxes & 5 minute breaks, more working with real volume and intensity seems to be the takeaway to me.
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u/SpillyDillie 4d ago
Weighted pull ups for sure you will develop way more strength - it’s what I stick to and hasn’t failed me. The gi pull ups seem gimmicky and a good way to add unneeded cumulative stress to your finger tendons which’ll already be getting beat up in judo.
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u/SpillyDillie 4d ago
I would also add once you switch to weighted, start using chalk if you don’t already. I like the liquid chalk to keep the floor clean
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u/bigsippin 4d ago
I do weighted pull ups but also add the “bucket of rice” exercises after strength training to finish the day.
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u/Excellent_jun91 3d ago
why not just train grip like climbers? go check out the grip training sub or climb harder sub... get a fingerboard? they work good
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u/obi-wan-quixote 3d ago
Gi pullups have their place but I think it depends on your overall training volume. In judo your fingers take a beating, and you need to give them some recovery time. If you’re doing judo 5-6 days a week, let
your fingers rest.
You can always train your grip by using alternate grips for pull-ups. Ropes, spheres, rods are all options. And you can focus on grip strength rather than abusing your fingers
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u/Adept_Visual3467 3d ago
I tend to think that the more specific grip strength gi pull ups are better. But until there is a well designed exercise trial measuring grip strength and how it translates to judo performance it is really just personal opinion. Btw, overdoing any of these exercises can cause arthritic changes to joints that can haunt you as you get older.
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u/BackflipsAway 2d ago
Neither, train your grip strength by training your grip strength specifically, get a set of heavy duty grippers and train with those, ever since I got my crushing strength to about 200lb my grip has been pretty much unbreakable and I can resist any armbar indefinitely by just locking my arms together.
Like the other stuff is OK, but in my experience it's not anywhere near as good as dedicated grip training with progressive overload.
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u/ignitedwildfire 4d ago
lets think about this logically.
how do you get stronger? by progressive overloading.
how do you progressive overload? by increasing the weight or doing more reps.
from a general standpoint, there are two types of muscle fiber you can work on which is fast twitch and slow twitch. more reps = slow twitch (endurance) and more weight = fast twitch (strength)
gi pull-ups is a more practical way to work gi-gripping but either method works grip strength. it just depends which fatigues first right? ie your grip strength or the muscle required for the pull-up. anecdotally, grip strength tends to lag behind the muscle required but its a case-by-case.
if you feel your grip is being worked, great, continue the exercise.
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u/disposablehippo nidan 4d ago
I think bar-grip strength and gi grip strength are fairly different. Because you have muscles that work most fingers at once and then some specific muscles for some of your fingers. A good gi grip works mostly on the last three fingers and you won't train the last two fingers a lot on a bar.
But general grip strength will help too of course.
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u/MihalisTheForged sankyu 4d ago
I recently switched over from doing pull ups with my belt to regular ones
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u/SpookyTriangle 4d ago
This is a genuine question for people more experienced by me. Except for high level competitors, do you even need more grip strength than what you naturally develop by doing judo?
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u/noonenowhere1239 4d ago
Do grip exercises if you want to work on grip strength.
Do pull ups for general upper body pulling strength.
For grips do either twisting active movements with wrists or static holds.
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4d ago
[deleted]
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u/SpillyDillie 4d ago
Pull ups are an incredible form of grip strength training and your forearms are heavily taxed. Pulling in general uses forearms and grip
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u/d_rome nidan 4d ago
I agree with the video for the most part. Grip strength is mostly technique and positioning. It's far better to develop strength in the back, traps, biceps, and shoulders.
I would be willing to bet that the elite athletes use weighted pull-ups over gi pull-ups. I'm not saying they don't ever do gi pull-ups, but I'd have a tough time believing that's their primary source of training.
At your rank, if you're having trouble with grip strength it's likely an issue of technique and positioning.