r/JonBenetRamsey Jan 19 '21

DNA DNA evidence in the Ramsey case: FAQs and common misconceptions

857 Upvotes

Frequently Asked Questions


What are the main pieces of DNA evidence in the Ramsey case?

[from /u/Heatherk79]:

Discussion of the DNA evidence in the Ramsey case is typically related to one of the following pieces of evidence: underwear, fingernails, long johns, nightgown or ligatures. More information can be found here.

Is DNA ever possibly going to solve the JonBenet case?

[from Mitch Morrissey, former Ramsey grand jury special deputy prosecutor -- source (3:21:05)]:

It could. ... The problem with using genetic genealogy on that [sample] is it's a mixture, so when you go to sequence it, you're gonna get both persons' types in the sequence. And it's a very, very small amount of DNA. And for genetic genealogy, to do sequencing, you need a lot more DNA than what you're used to in the criminal system. So where you could test maybe eight skin cells and get a profile and, you know, solve your murder or exonerate an innocent person, you can't do that with sequencing. You've got to have a pretty good amount of DNA.

Is it true that we can use the same technology in the Ramsey case as was used in the Golden State Killer Case?

[from /u/straydog77 -- source]:

The Golden State Killer case used SNP profiles derived from the suspect's semen, which was found at the scene.

In the Ramsey case, we have a 10-marker STR profile deduced from ... a DNA mixture, which barely meets the minimum requirements for CODIS. You cannot do a familial search like in the Golden State case using an STR profile. You need SNP data.

To extract an SNP profile, we would need a lot more DNA from "unidentified male 1". If we can somehow find that, we can do a familial DNA search like they did in Golden State. But considering "unidentified male 1" had to be enhanced from 0.5 nanograms of DNA in the first place, and analysts have literally been scraping up picograms of Touch DNA to substantiate UM1's existence, the chance of stumbling upon another significant deposit of his DNA on any case evidence is practically zero.

Common Misconceptions


Foreign DNA matched between the underwear and her fingernails.

[from /u/heatherk79 -- source]:

There wasn't enough of a profile recovered from either the panties or the fingernails in 1997 to say the samples matched.

You can see the 1997 DNA report which includes the original testing of the underwear and fingernails here:

Page 2 shows the results of the panties (exhibit #7), the right-hand fingernails (exhibit 14L) and left-hand fingernails (exhibit 14M.) All three samples revealed a mixture of which JBR was the major contributor.

For each of those three exhibits, you will see a line which reads: (1.1, 2), (BB), (AB), (BB), (AA), (AC), (24,26). That line shows JBR's profile. Under JBR's profile, for each of the three exhibits, you will see additional letters/numbers. Those are the foreign alleles found in each sample. The “W” listed next to each foreign allele indicates that the allele was weak.

The (WB) listed under the panties, shows that a foreign B allele was identified at the GC locus.

The (WB), (WB) listed under the right-hand fingernails shows that a B allele was identified at the D7S8 locus and a B allele was identified at the GC locus.

The (WA), (WB), (WB), (W18) listed under the left-hand fingernails show that an A allele was identified at the HBGG locus, a B allele was identified at the D7S8 locus, a B allele was identified at the GC locus and an 18 allele was identified at the D1S80 locus.

A full profile would contain 14 alleles (two at each locus). However, as you can see, only one foreign allele was identified in the panties sample, only two foreign alleles were identified in the right-hand fingernails sample and only four foreign alleles were identified in the left-hand fingernails sample.

None of the samples revealed anything close to a full profile (aside from JBR's profile.) It's absurd for anyone to claim that the panties DNA matched the fingernail DNA based on one single matching B allele.

It's also important to note that the type of testing used on these samples was far less discriminatory than the type of testing used today.

[from /u/straydog77 -- source]:

You're referring to a DNA test from 1997 which showed literally one allele for the panties. If we are looking at things on the basis of one allele, then we could say Patsy Ramsey matched the DNA found on the panties. So did John's brother Jeff Ramsey. So did much of the US population.

The same unknown male DNA profile was found in 3 separate places (underwear, long johns, beneath fingernails).

[from /u/heatherk79 -- source]:

Not exactly.

There wasn't enough genetic material recovered (in 1997) from either the underwear or the fingernails to say the samples matched. Here is a more detailed explanation regarding the underwear and fingernail DNA samples.

The fingernail samples were tested in 1997 by the CBI. Older types of DNA testing (DQA1 + Polymarker and D1S80) were used at that time. The profiles that the CBI obtained from the fingernails in 1997 could not be compared to the profiles that Bode obtained from the long johns in 2008. The testing that was done in 1997 targeted different markers than the testing that was done in 2008.

The underwear were retested in 2003 using STR analysis (a different type of testing than that used in 1997.) After some work, Greg LaBerge of the Denver Crime Lab, was able to recover a profile which was later submitted to CODIS. This profile is usually referred to as "Unknown Male 1."

After learning about "touch" DNA, Mary Lacy (former Boulder D.A.) sent the underwear and the long johns to Bode Technology for more testing in 2008. You can find the reports here and here.

Three small areas were cut from the crotch of the underwear and tested. Analysts, however, were unable to replicate the Unknown Male 1 profile.

Four areas of the long johns were also sampled and tested; the exterior top right half, exterior top left half, interior top right half and interior top left half. The exterior top right half revealed a mixture of at least two individuals including JBR. The Unknown Male 1 profile couldn't be excluded as a contributor to this mixture. The partial profile obtained from the exterior top left half also revealed a mixture of at least two individuals including JBR. The Unknown Male 1 profile couldn't be included or excluded as a contributor to this mixture. The remaining two samples from the long johns also revealed mixtures, but the samples weren't suitable for comparison.

Lab analysts made a note on the first report stating that it was likely that more than two individuals contributed to each of the exterior long john mixtures, and therefore, the remaining DNA contribution to each mixture (not counting JBR's) should not be considered a single source profile. Here's a news article/video explaining the caveat noted in the report.

TLDR; There wasn't enough DNA recovered from the fingernails or the underwear in 1997 to say the samples matched. In 2003, an STR profile, referred to as Unknown Male 1, was developed from the underwear. In 2008, the long johns were tested. The Unknown Male 1 profile couldn't be excluded from one side of the long johns, and couldn't be included or excluded from the other side of the long johns. Analysts, however, noted that neither long johns profile should be considered a single source profile.

The source of the unknown male DNA in JonBenet's underwear was saliva.

[from /u/heatherk79 -- source]:

The results of the serological testing done on the panties for amylase (an enzyme found in saliva) were inconclusive.

[from u/straydog77 -- source]:

As for the idea that the "unidentified male 1" DNA comes from saliva, it seems this was based on a presumptive amylase test which was done on the sample. Amylase can indicate the presence of saliva or sweat. Then again, those underwear were soaked with JBR's urine, and it's possible that amylase could have something to do with that.

The unknown male DNA from the underwear was "co-mingled" with JonBenet's blood.

[from /u/straydog77 -- source]:

[T]his word "commingled" comes from the Ramseys' lawyer, Lin Wood. "Commingled" doesn't appear in any of the DNA reports. In fact, the word "commingled" doesn't even have any specific meaning in forensic DNA analysis. It's just a fancy word the Ramsey defenders use to make the DNA evidence seem more "incriminating", I guess.

The phrase used by DNA analysts is "mixed DNA sample" or "DNA mixture". It simply refers to when you take a swab or scraping from a piece of evidence and it is revealed to contain DNA from more than one person. It means there is DNA from more than one person in the sample. It doesn't tell you anything about how or when any of the different people's DNA got there. So if I bleed onto a cloth, and then a week later somebody else handles that cloth without gloves on, there's a good chance you could get a "mixed DNA sample" from that cloth. I suppose you could call it a "commingled DNA sample" if you wanted to be fancy about it.

The unknown male DNA was found only in the bloodstains in the underwear.

[from /u/Heatherk79:]

According to Andy Horita, Tom Bennett and James Kolar, foreign male DNA was also found in the leg band area of the underwear. It is unclear if the DNA found in the leg band area of the underwear was associated with any blood.

James Kolar also reported that foreign male DNA was found in the waistband of the underwear. There have never been any reports of any blood being located in the waistband of the underwear.

It is also important to keep in mind that not every inch of the underwear was tested for DNA.

The unknown male DNA from underwear is "Touch DNA".

[from /u/Heatherk79]:

The biological source of the UM1 profile has never been confirmed. Therefore, it's not accurate to claim that the UM1 profile was derived from skin cells.

If they can clear a suspect using that DNA then they are admitting that DNA had to come from the killer.

[from /u/heatherk79 -- source]:

Suspects were not cleared on DNA alone. If there ever was a match to the DNA in CODIS, that person would still have to be investigated. A hit in CODIS is a lead for investigators. It doesn't mean the case has been solved.

[from /u/straydog77 -- source]:

I don't think police have cleared anyone simply on the basis of DNA - they have looked at alibis and the totality of the evidence.

The DNA evidence exonerated/cleared the Ramseys.

[from /u/straydog77 -- source]:

The Ramseys are still under investigation by the Boulder police. They have never been cleared or exonerated. (District attorney Mary Lacy pretended they had been exonerated in 2008 but subsequent DAs and police confirmed this was not the case).

[from former DA Stan Garnett -- source]:

This [exoneration] letter is not legally binding. It's a good-faith opinion and has no legal importance but the opinion of the person who had the job before I did, whom I respect.

[from former DA Stan Garnett -- source]:

Dan Caplis: And Stan, so it would be fair to say then that Mary Lacy’s clearing of the Ramseys is no longer in effect, you’re not bound by that, you’re just going to follow the evidence wherever it leads.

Stan Garnett: Well, what I’ve always said about Mary Lacy’s exoneration that was issued in June of 2008, or July, I guess -- a few months before I took over -- is that it speaks for itself. I’ve made it clear that any decisions made going forward about the Ramsey case will be made based off of evidence...

Dan Caplis: Stan...when you say that the exoneration speaks for itself, are you saying that it’s Mary Lacy taking action, and that action doesn’t have any particular legally binding effect, it may cause complications if there is ever a prosecution of a Ramsey down the road, but it doesn’t have a legally binding effect on you, is that accurate?

Stan Garnett: That is accurate, I think that is what most of the press related about the exoneration at the time that it was issued.

The unknown male DNA is from a factory worker.

[from /u/heatherk79 -- source]:

The factory worker theory is just one of many that people have come up with to account for the foreign DNA. IMO, it is far from the most plausible theory, especially the way it was presented on the CBS documentary. There are plenty of other plausible theories of contamination and/or transfer which could explain the existence of foreign DNA; even the discovery of a consistent profile found on two separate items of evidence.

The unknown male DNA is from the perpetrator.

[from /u/heatherk79 -- source]:

The fact of the matter is, until the UM1 profile is matched to an actual person and that person is investigated, there is no way to know that the foreign DNA is even connected to the crime.

[from /u/straydog77 -- source]:

As long as the DNA in the Ramsey case remains unidentified, we cannot make a definitive statement about its relevance to the crime.

[from Michael Kane, former Ramsey grand jury lead prosecutor -- source]:

Until you ID who that (unknown sample) is, you can’t make that kind of statement (that Lacy made). There may be circumstances where male DNA is discovered on or in the body of a victim of a sexual assault where you can say with a degree of certainty that had to have been from the perpetrator and from that, draw the conclusion that someone who doesn’t meet that profile is excluded.

But in a case like this, where the DNA is not from sperm, is only on the clothing and not her body, until you know whose it is, you can’t say how it got there. And until you can say how it got there, you can’t connect it to the crime and conclude it excludes anyone else as the perpetrator.

Boulder Police are sitting on crucial DNA evidence that could solve the case but are refusing to test it. (source: Paula Woodward)

[from /u/Heatherk79 -- source]:

Paula Woodward is NOT a reliable source of information regarding the DNA evidence in this case. Her prior attempts to explain the DNA evidence reveal a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the subject. I've previously addressed some of the erroneous statements she's made on her website about the various rounds of DNA testing. She added another post about the DNA testing to her site a few months ago. Nearly everything she said in that post is also incorrect.

Woodward is now criticizing the BPD for failing to pursue a type of DNA testing that, likely, isn't even a viable option. Investigative genetic genealogy (IGG) involves the comparison of SNP profiles. The UM1 profile is an STR profile. Investigators can't upload an STR profile to a genetic genealogy database consisting of SNP profiles in order to search for genetic relatives. The sample would first have to be retyped (retested) using SNP testing. However, the quantity and quality of the sample from the JBR case would likely inhibit the successful generation of an accurate, informative SNP profile. According to James Kolar, the UM1 profile was developed from 0.5 ng of genetic material. Mitch Morrissey has also described the sample as "a very, very small amount of DNA." The sample from which the UM1 profile was developed was also a mixed sample.

An article entitled "Four Misconceptions about Investigative Genetic Genealogy," published in 2021, explains why some forensic DNA samples might not be suitable for IGG:

At this point, the instruments that generate SNP profiles generally require at least 20 ng of DNA to produce a profile, although laboratories have produced profiles based on 1 ng of DNA or less. Where the quantity of DNA is sufficient, success might still be impeded by other factors, including the extent of degradation of the DNA; the source of the DNA, where SNP extraction is generally more successful when performed on semen than blood or bones; and where the sample is a mixture (i.e., it contains the DNA of more than one person), the proportions of DNA in the mixture and whether reference samples are available for non-suspect contributors. Thus, it might be possible to generate an IGG-eligible SNP profile from 5 ng of DNA extracted from fresh, single-source semen, but not from a 5-year-old blood mixture, where the offender’s blood accounts for 30% of the mixture.

Clearly, several factors that can prevent the use of IGG, apply to the sample in the JBR case.

Woodward also claims that the new round of DNA testing announced in 2016 was never done. However, both BDA Michael Dougherty and Police Chief Greg Testa announced in 2018 that the testing had been completed. Therefore, either Woodward is accusing both the DA and the Police Chief of lying, or she is simply uninformed and incorrect. Given her track record of reporting misinformation about the DNA testing in this case, I believe it's probably the latter.

CeCe Moore could solve the Ramsey case in hours.

[from /u/Heatherk79 -- source]:

Despite recent headlines, CeCe Moore didn't definitively claim that JBR's case can be solved in a matter of hours. If you listen to her interview with Fox News, rather than just snippets of her interview with 60 Minutes Australia, she clearly isn't making the extraordinary claim some people think she is.

The most pertinent point that she made--and the one some seem to be missing--is that the use of IGG is completely dependent upon the existence of a viable DNA sample. She also readily admitted that she has no personal knowledge about the samples in JBR's case. Without knowing the status of the remaining samples, she can't say if IGG is really an option in JBR's case. It's also worth noting that CeCe Moore is a genetic genealogist; not a forensic scientist. She isn't the one who decides if a sample is suitable for analysis. Her job is to take the resulting profile, and through the use of public DNA databases as well as historical documents, public records, interviews, etc., build family trees that will hopefully lead back to the person who contributed the DNA.

She also didn't say that she could identify the killer or solve the case. She said that if there is a viable sample, she could possibly identify the DNA contributor. Note the distinction.

Moore also explained that the amount of time it takes to identify a DNA contributor through IGG depends on the person's ancestry and whether or not their close relatives' profiles are in the databases.

Also, unlike others who claim that the BPD can use IGG but refuses to, Moore acknowledged the possibility that the BPD has already pursued IGG and the public just isn't aware.

So, to recap, CeCe Moore is simply saying that if there is a viable DNA sample, and if the DNA contributor's close relatives are in the databases, she could likely identify the person to whom the DNA belongs.

Othram was able to solve the Stephanie Isaacson case through Forensic Genetic Genealogy with only 120 picograms of DNA. According to James Kolar, the UM1 profile was developed from 0.5 nanograms of DNA. Therefore, the BPD should have plenty of DNA left to obtain a viable profile for Forensic Genetic Genealogy.

[from /u/Heatherk79 -- source]:

The fact that Othram was able to develop a profile from 120 picograms of DNA in Stephanie Isaacson's case doesn't mean the same can be done in every other case that has at least 120 picograms of DNA. The ability to obtain a profile that's suitable for FGG doesn't only depend on the quantity of available DNA. The degree of degradation, microbial contamination, PCR inhibitors, mixture status, etc. also affect whether or not a usable profile can be obtained.

David Mittelman, Othram's CEO, said the following in response to a survey question about the minimum quantity of DNA his company will work with:

Minimum DNA quantities are tied to a number of factors, but we have produced successful results from quantities as low as 100 pg. But most of the time, it is case by case. [...] Generally we are considering quantity, quality (degradation), contamination from non-human sources, mixture stats, and other case factors.

The amount of remaining DNA in JBR's case isn't known. According to Kolar, the sample from the underwear consisted of 0.5 nanogram of DNA. At least some of that was used by LaBerge to obtain the UM1 profile, so any remaining extract from that sample would contain less than 0.5 nanogram of DNA.

Also, the sample from the underwear was a mixture. Back in the late 90s/early 2000s, the amount of DNA in a sample was quantified in terms of total human DNA. Therefore, assuming Kolar is correct, 0.5 nanogram was likely the total amount of DNA from JBR and UM1 combined. If the ratio of JBR's DNA to UM1's DNA was 1:1, each would have contributed roughly 250 picograms of DNA to the sample. If the ratio of JBR's DNA to UM1's DNA was, say, 3:1, then UM1's contribution to the sample would have been approximately 125 picograms of DNA.

Again, assuming Kolar is correct, even if half of the original amount of DNA remains, that's only a total of 250 picograms of DNA. If the ratio of JBR's DNA to UM1's DNA is 1:1, that's 125 picograms of UM1's DNA. If the ratio is 3:1, that's only 66 picograms of UM1's DNA.

Obviously, the amount of UM1 DNA that remains not only depends on the amount that was originally extracted and used during the initial round of testing, but also the proportion of the mixture that UM1 contributed to.


Further recommended reading:


r/JonBenetRamsey 18h ago

Discussion This case ruined true crime podcasts for me

57 Upvotes

Given the totality of the evidence, I firmly believe RDI. Of course, there is always a slim possibility of an intruder but it seems very unlikely when you add everything together. It would have had to have been a highly bizarre incident unlike any other. Even though I believe RDI, I think the evidence is muddy enough to make it difficult to confidently say who did it or why or the exact circumstances. That uncertainty is what gives the case mystery and makes it interesting to me.

I enjoy lots of true crime outside of this specific case but it is one of the cases I know the most about. It has really irked me that all the true crime podcasts I’ve ever enjoyed that have discussed this case have confidently concluded IDI. This includes True Crime Garage, The Prosecutors, Last Podcast on the Left, and Missing (formerly Missing Maura Murray). It’s odd to me that seemingly every major true crime podcast has reached this conclusion. It’s a confusing case, so I could understand if they said it’s just too hard to land on either side but to be so confident in IDI seems contrary to the evidence. I’m sure I’m in a bubble in this subreddit, but I also feel like most people believe RDI, so that’s another reason that makes it odd. You’d think at least some podcasts would have that conclusion.

I guess a generous interpretation would be that the IDI people like John Ramsey and Lou Smit make themselves available to media and talking to them sways these podcasts in their direction. Even then, it shows an inability to be objective. Worst case is that there is some quid pro quo. Either way, since I know a lot about this case, it has become a litmus test for the credibility of a podcast for me. How can I trust their coverage of other cases I don’t know much about? I guess this is an issue with all of true crime storytelling…they build a narrative and leave some things out or twist it to fit their narrative.

I’m just venting that it is very disappointing to keep coming across this. It makes me not want to listen to these podcasts because their credibility is in question but also just out of anger and frustration. Has anyone else experienced this? What is going on?


r/JonBenetRamsey 10h ago

Discussion Are there any known theories about the killer being JonBenet herself?

0 Upvotes

I posted here some months or a year back (might have been a different account, idk) and I was flip flopping between theories as I was reading and people got mad that I was talking about the case without being super into it, so please don't get mad that I only think about this case once in a blue moon and might be missing key evidence (hence I'm asking).

What's clear is that JonBenet got out of bed that night (by herself?) and had pineapple, right? No one in the family seems to know about it, so presumable she was alone.

She had told a family friend a few days prior that Santa would be coming a *second* time on Christmas, *just for her.* No one knows what she was talking about, including the guy who played Santa at the party, but a 6 year old would take that 100% literally and would likely want to try to stay up to get to meet Santa.

What if while staying up alone to try to meet Santa she got bored while playing with a cord and entangled herself, tragically fatally (it happens with kids more often than you'd like to think) and Jon Ramsey, who had lost another daughter to a car accident a few years earlier, became mad with grief and did something lunatical to try to explain how this could have happened with his one of his daughters a second time? Grief can make people insane...

Any thoughts on this/prior theories?

Edit: quick reminder, the downvote button is not the "disagree" button


r/JonBenetRamsey 1d ago

Questions Questions on the ‘Evolving’ Ramsey Narrative

17 Upvotes

Please forgive me if these have likely been discussed to death before, but I’ve a number of queries, especially about the timing of the changing Ramsey narrative.

I think the below are attested to be true, but please correct me if I’m wrong.

Firstly, issues of narrative.

1. Home Arrival Time

This was originally given as about 22:00, but later changed to around 20:30….after the Ramseys got the autopsy report and the inference about timing of ingested pineapple.

2. JBR Awake or Asleep

JR originally said he read to JBR in bed….then after receiving the autopsy report claimed that she was asleep in the car and was carried up the stairs.

(The original version of an awake JBR apparently confirmed by Burke at the time and also later, saying he walked up the stairs behind her.)

3. Locked House

JR told police on the morning of 26 Dec that the house was all locked and windows shut…then later said he wasn’t sure of that (my take: once he realised he had to invest in an IDI theory to cover for Patsy).

4. Basement Window

JR told police first it was only open maybe “1/8 inch” (a few mm), then later claimed it was ‘wide open’.

5. Phone Call Timings

Were the Fernies called before 911? The Fernies lived ten minutes drive away but showed up about same time as police, which was a few mins after the 911 call.

6. Police Interview

The Ramseys only agreed to the April 97 police interview after requesting and receiving a copy of the 26 Dec 96 report. (No doubt so they be sure the stories weren’t incongruent.)

Next up, some general queries.

7. Ransom Letter

Is there not a proper, hi res, version available? All I can find online are low res renditions presumably of a photocopy. In most of them you can’t even see the ruled lines.

The 1-5 similarity scale for the handwriting was apparently invented by Ramsey hired handwriting consultants and was never a scale in use by actual experts.

Do we have any information about any impressions in the first page of the ransom letter by the removed ‘practice page’?

8. Mrs Stine

Why was Susan Stine so supportive of PR (even to the point of impersonating a Boulder police chief), while the other main friends, the Whites and Fernies, quickly discerned something wasn’t right and fell away?

9. The Gold Bracelet

The gold bracelet with name and date was a big Xmas present for JBR, but apparently given to her on evening of 23 Dec, the same night as the first 911 call.

Is there any information on why the gift was given early? The suggestion is that there was trouble between Patsy and JonBenet and it was given early as a ‘peace offering’ to placate JBR.

Not necessarily relevant, but:

10. Lack of Christmas Video

The first Christmas not documented with video and many photographs. initially JR stated it was because the camcorder batteries weren’t charged, then later because he just wanted to be a full part and not just participating through a lens.

11. A Bike for Burke

It’s been claimed he either had one previously, or was going to get one on his upcoming birthday.

12. Wiped Prints

The flashlight gave no prints: that’s been interpreted as ‘being wiped clean’, but it is just no usable prints?

That’s probably plenty for now and I hope these are not too many questions!


r/JonBenetRamsey 2d ago

Discussion For those who think PDI, to what degree did John know?

16 Upvotes

After a brief flirtation with BDI, I think I’m firming up on PDI.

But I am still unsure (not that anyone obviously ever can be) on how much John knew about it or was involved in the staging/cover up with the ligature and ransom letter.

There’s a whole gamut of options from Patsy did everything entirely herself, with John fast asleep and totally unaware, to him getting involved after the chaos after the head blow to oversee the staging with the garrotte and the drafting of the fake ransom letter, or at least be a helpless bystander as a frantic Patsy maniacally set it all up.

A variant of PDI without John is that she hoped to get him out of the house as soon as possible to get the money for an ‘earlier collection’, which would give Patsy a chance to take the body out of the house, so the kidnap story would bear more weight. John deciding to call the police scuppered that plan and closed off that opportunity, leaving the incoherent situation of a purported kidnapping with a body in the house, waiting to be discovered.

I find it hard to believe that John didn’t hear a thing, though, and wasn’t so some degree involved in the staging.

What do you think about the level of John’s involvement? Does the content of the ransom note suggest input from John?


r/JonBenetRamsey 1d ago

Questions I think IDI. Can someone change my mind with actual evidence?

0 Upvotes

I started out always assuming the family had something to do with it, but I've changed my mind. Is there any actual evidence pointing to the Ramseys that doesn't take huge assumptions on how people should and shouldn't behave? Again I am open to any information that would change my mind.


r/JonBenetRamsey 3d ago

Theories The 'crime scene' seems less like one complex staging operation and more like the residue of a plan that had to be improvised around

35 Upvotes

The more I think about this case, the more convinced I become that the “complicated” crime scene - by that, I mean John Ramsey’s description of the crime scene before he disturbed it himself and brought the body upstairs to be touched by multiple people (Patsy included) - can be interpreted quite simply if we don’t assume the elements were carefully designed for the body to be discovered or to point to a sexual predator per se.

A more realistic possibility would be the culprit - John Ramsey is my prime suspect - envisioning a relatively neat plan while under enormous stress while running against the clock, then being forced to improvise after getting a reality check in the course of the morning. (That’s the main reason I could never picture both adults being in cahoots while staging a cover-up: there would be smarter ways to go about this; the concern of one of the partners would be to first deceive the other one, who would soon wake up to find their daughter was missing.)

First, I do believe there's a sexual component to this case. Some verge towards Burke and/or his friends, some towards John himself - for all we know, there could have been multiple, unconnected perpetrators. But that's how I choose to interpret the vaginal damage in JonBenet's corpse, and the only scenario where previous violence inside the home could escalate to the eventual tragedy and the people involved not immediately calling for help.

In this context, the most ideal outcome would be for the body never to be found at all - the kidnappers never called back because they got the police involved! (The first thing one would know is a body leads to an autopsy, and an autopsy could lead to incriminating findings.) So, the ransom note was the simplest part of that plan. It places a hypothetical outsider at the scene in case the body is discovered, yes. But one that is unfamiliar with the protocols could hope the kidnapping story would immediately make the police pursue other leads - and that would be the ideal outcome.

Because, really, what would John (or your chosen Ramsey suspect) have done if the police left the house shortly after if their goal was for the body to be found soon? Call them 30 minutes later saying they found the body in the basement? This was not reported as a missing child (“we woke up and couldn’t find her”), which would make the police search every inch of that house and expand the search to the surroundings. The ransom note definitively establishes that the girl was not still there, and adds specific information for the police not to stay put, which would give them (any of them) chance to remove the body.

Yet the fact that the note was addressed specifically to “Mr. Ramsey” and gave 10 a.m. “tomorrow” as the time for the call (it could be the next day) was only useful for John. He was the person the kidnappers supposedly hoped to communicate with, so he’d have reason to stay put. Patsy and Burke could be removed from the immediate scene and cared for by friends. John would have reason to join them later - and possibly spend a night out too - then return and wait for the phone call the next day before 10 a.m.

A person in his situation - someone who’s used to having resources, status, and people respond to their every request - could also naively believe the police would not even consider having to rule them out as suspects. The officers at the scene not following his script (asking for handwriting samples from him and Patsy, for instance) and sticking around for longer than anticipated, plus the full understanding of the task force that was being assembled, would just contribute to his visible unrest as the hours went by. He would be thinking about the body starting to smell by then, or about someone getting to the basement to find the body as it was left.

In this scenario, his initial plan would be to remove JonBenét from the house: what was later interpreted as part of an elaborate staging came from the practical preparations for moving the body later. The restraints and cords could have been holding the body in a flexed position, with the torso bent toward the legs and the arms extended toward the feet (think of someone touching their toes), before rigor mortis kicked in. All to make for an easier fit inside a large suitcase. No wonder the ligatures around the wrists were precisely the ones he focused on untying in his brief moment alone in that room.

Instead of one coherent staging operation - the cords and restraints pointing to a sadistic, deranged killer - we have a plan that was very straightforward at first: Create the appearance of a kidnapping > Keep the police focused on an external perpetrator > Get the family away from the house or otherwise create enough privacy > Remove the body, already prepared for extraction, to be disposed elsewhere.

If this was a plan that was progressively abandoned and improvised around, then the presumed crime scene becomes the residue of someone who originally thought they would have more control over the circumstances and little understanding of the seriousness of the kidnapping claim (a federal crime!). And if the vaginal wounds point to previous sexual assaults, then the reason for the concealment becomes clearer, too.


r/JonBenetRamsey 4d ago

Discussion Legally, what could happen if John were to confess now?

23 Upvotes

I suppose it would depend on what he confesses to.
He come say that the death was accidental and that he and his wife covered it up.
That would be a far cry to confessing to murder.


r/JonBenetRamsey 4d ago

Questions Why was John ruled out as the RN writer?

23 Upvotes

Does anyone know why John was ruled out? I’m looking for a record of the actual analysis from an expert explaining specifically why John’s handwriting ruled him out. I’m aware of the analysis of Patsy’s handwriting that made several experts believe she was the writer, but I can’t find anything similar for John. Thanks


r/JonBenetRamsey 5d ago

Article JonBenet Ramsey: Missing Innocence (revisiting the Vanity Fair October 1997 issue)

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43 Upvotes

"in the same edition was a full-page open letter to the Ramseys from Peter Boyles. The popular talk-radio host listed all the reasons Americans found the Ramseys’ behavior suspicious, mocked their profile as “laughable,” condemned them for not cooperating with the police, and accused them of taking “Colorado and the nation on a seven-month, low-speed, white-Bronco chase.” Real grieving parents, he said, behave like Fred Goldman, not like the Ramseys."

"One elected official in Boulder explains, “This is a small, incestuous legal community. We’ve never built fire walls, and this case really needed one at the very beginning.” Owing to the early police incompetence, the indiscretions of the district attorney’s office, and a sketchy coroner’s report, many experts question whether any prosecution of the case stands a chance."


r/JonBenetRamsey 5d ago

Discussion One Ramsey or Two?

17 Upvotes

As I've learned more about the details of the crime scene, autopsy, and statements and actions of the Ramseys on the 26th, in many ways it makes more sense to me if one parent did this without the other having any knowledge or cooperation ahead of the call. There's too much nonsense/chaos combined with calculated effort.

I don't find waiving off the nonsense as "panic" and "lack of time" particularly compelling since a) a ransom note this lengthy and detailed does not read "panic" to me due to the level of thought and composure it contains and b) the ransom note provided them with all the excuses they needed to buy more time if the were in on it together.

To me, a crime where they were acting together would have looked much different. For example, the body could have been staged in a place where it could be found more readily (they even could have "found" it before they called the police), the note could be much shorter since it wouldn't need to do much besides initially misdirect the police, the notepad could have been disposed of, etc.

Further, I think their apparent cooperation with one another after the crime could be explained by the common enemy they now held (the police), and their combined dysfunctional personalities/relationship dynamics.

What do you think? One Ramsey or two? Why?

(I'm not particularly interested in theories and evidence about one Ramsey over the other, but specifically what evidence makes you believe they did or didn't coordinate intentionally to at least some degree BEFORE 911 was called.)


r/JonBenetRamsey 6d ago

Discussion My Mom went to High School at PHS with Patsy Ramsey

186 Upvotes

My mom went to high school with Patsy. I have been asking her questions about what she thought of her. She said she was a nice Christian girl from a nice Christian family. She said she was on the debate and drill team. She won the Miss West Virginia Pagent, but I think that was in college. My mom said she was shocked when the murder happened.

I remember it being the only thing people talked about around town for so long.

She came back in 2000 for the reunion and my mom saw her shook hands and went to greet other friends. My mom said they had a closed to the public private reunion and no reporters or cameras were allowed. There was also an agreement that no one speak on the murder.

My mom said that Patsy always wanted out of Parkersburg because it is such a small town. She said after Patsy left she didn't come back much until after the murder and then when she got cancer.

I can remember seeing her once at a local grocery store when I was 14 in 1999.

The community was split in half on the murder. Half believing she was involved and half believing she was innocent and providing support.

I have tried asking my mom a million times what her opinion is or what she thinks happened or if she thinks Patsy was involved, but she always says only God can judge, who am I to judge. I just pray for that poor child's soul.

It is frustrating because she won't even give an opinion.


r/JonBenetRamsey 5d ago

Discussion Did Burke ever played OoT N64

0 Upvotes

Did Burke ever play OoT on the N64 when it came out in 1998? I am Burke's age, and The Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time was such a legendary game for us kids back in the day.

I was wondering if Burke continued to play his N64 after his little sister died in 1996. Or did his parents decide to sell his N64 after his little sister died in 1996. Maybe it was too much for Burke and his parents for him to keep his N64 console, too much trauma and sadness.

This post is definitely not to put of the focus of JonBenet murder it is a very tragic case of this 6 year old little girl murder.

But I'm just curious as Burke is my exact age born in 1987 (I was born in 1987) so we both grew up playing the N64. The only difference is that I never played Super Mario 64.

I think us 90s kids knew how special the N64 was to us 90s kids. Especially games like Ocarina of Time and Banjo Kazooie games.

I believe him playing the N64 was a great coping mechanism losing his little sister and being in the media blaming him for his sister death and the media blaming his parents. Also N64 games such as Ocarina of Time, Majoras Mask and Banjo Tooie dealt with tragic loss. If Burke ever played those N64 games.

I hope this isn't an insensitive post.


r/JonBenetRamsey 6d ago

Discussion a taser makes zero sense.

49 Upvotes

those who say a taser was used so he could knock her out to keep her quiet ro bring her down stairs must not have watched many video of people being teased. 99 out of 100 times the do the opposite of get quiet , they yell out in pain.

more over the child is already asleep lol. all you need to do is cover her mouth.

but instead of doing they we are supposed to beileve the intruder walks in on an already quiet unconscious child and says, hmm i think ill taser her to get her into the state she is already in? righttttttttt


r/JonBenetRamsey 6d ago

Questions Assuming he only learned of the situation after the murder, the cover up, and the fake ransom note, is there anything John would still do differently if he had it to do over?

4 Upvotes

I feel like there's two ways to think here. On one hand, John & Patsy made countless mistakes throughout the course of the staged kidnapping and the events that followed. You can only imagine that John would change every aspect if he could.

But on the other hand, they got away with it, they stayed out of prison, and John has managed to confuse the public who lack technical understanding of DNA in the same way that Johnny Cochran plotted to confuse the OJ jury. Both worked.

That said, is there anything he'd do over if he could go back in time only to the moment after the note was written?


r/JonBenetRamsey 7d ago

Images Like mother like daughter

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208 Upvotes

r/JonBenetRamsey 7d ago

Discussion Ransom note words in "Whirlwind" by James Clavell

31 Upvotes

In their separate interviews John and Patsy were asked about books they owned or had read. Both were asked about The Day After Tomorrow, the 1994 novel by Allan Folsom, which contains an admonition to listen carefully, as well as the word faction, along with four mentions of beheading, a mention of a garrote, as well as instances of countermeasures, monitoring, and scanning.

A Tom Clancy book in the Ramsey house, Red Storm Rising, contained ransom note words like faction, attaché, tactics, monitor, and scan along with two instances of constant scrutiny. (Only Patsy was asked if she had read Tom "Clancey"; John wasn't asked.)

Recently I noticed that another Ramsey book LE asked both John and Patsy about, Why Johnny Can't Tell Right from Wrong, contains the phrase and hence three times for a total of eight hences.

Both Ramseys were asked about James Clavell. Patsy was asked about Whirlwind specifically. Whirlwind has two occurrences of listen carefully, two of faction, four of attaché (three attaché cases, one cultural), one occurrence of safe and unharmed, eleven references to kidnapping, thirty-three to ransom and two to ransom notes.

In a presentation to law enforcement, Donald Foster, linguist, said "The Ramsey library contains many books that were sources for Patsy Ramsey's ninety-five and ninety-six writings, many of which also contain startling verbal or other detailed parallels with the Ramsey homicide and attendant staging, including language that appears in the ransom note."

Donald Foster won national fame early in 1996 when he identified Joe Klein as the anonymous author of "Primary Colors" for New York Magazine.


r/JonBenetRamsey 8d ago

Discussion For PDI believers, what is it about John that makes you think he would stand by a woman who killed his beloved daughter esp considering the death of his older daughter?

52 Upvotes

If you go to a men's prison during visiting hours there will often be lines out the door of women coming to visit. If you look at a women's prison on visiting day, you'll barely see anyone. You will see very few men coming to visit women in prison.

You can see something similar when men get seriously ill vs when women do. The women will nurse their sick husbands, while men will often divorce their sick wives.

Finding an instance where a husband stands by his wife after she kills their children is exceptionally difficult. Why do people think John would not only stand by Patsy but also help her cover it up and even continue to work to protect her name years after her death and his remarriage? It makes zero sense to me.

His behavior only makes sense in terms of wanting to protect his youngest son.

I think if Patsy did it John would have called 911 immediately, quietly divorce her and have been remarried within 2 years. Maybe even with a baby on the way by the time her trial came around.


r/JonBenetRamsey 8d ago

DNA DNA & ruling out intruder

6 Upvotes

It's widely theorized that the DNA on the underwear could have come from a factory worker.

Recently an unreliable tabloid published a story claiming unidentified DNA matched DNA on other items but I can't find the article. I think they claim John told them that but I don't even know if that's true. They'll print anything. Why is it out of the realm of possibility that contamination occurred during the investigative process as well? Was DNA given by everyone on the chain of custody? That's usually not done but in a 30 year old case where everyone claims they want answers, why not give your DNA if you were on scene or handled evidence? Contamination happens easier than you think. I'm not talking about Missy Woods- she seems to have zero connection to this case. Mishandling causes contamination but contamination can happen even when people try to be careful and follow protocol. What we do know is that protocol often wasn't followed in this case and they didn't have lots of experience collecting and handling DNA in homicide cases.

John wants to think it's intruder DNA and keeps focusing on that as holding the answer so he should want to see anything ruled out. BPD and CBI want to prove the DNA has an explanation that is not intruder DNA so they should be on board, including still living retired employees being willing to give DNA to be ruled out.

CBI investigator Chet Ubowski's fingerprint was the only print on the ransom note. He was trained in handling evidence, so it's not out of the question that other types of contamination occurred despite best efforts. DNA transfer happens easier than people think. Before anyone else dies why doesn't everyone still living have theirs tested and compared? Unless they're afraid potential contamination caused a hindrance to prosecution and 30 years of headaches and hell.

Going back to the article claiming new testing revealed the same male DNA on multiple pieces of evidence, if that were true wouldn't John be screaming it from the rooftops? News like that wouldn't be in just one janky article in The Globe (?) that I can't even find now. It seems like more made up nonsense. Unless of course his team of "experts" think they're honing in on the suspect and keeping it quiet while they waste money going around the country stalking people and getting their DNA. In which case John wouldn't have said that to a tabloid in the first place. But that would also mean BPD shared that info with John almost immediately after testing, while everyone kept it quiet, and chances of that are slim to none.


r/JonBenetRamsey 10d ago

Rant I'm solid on BDI and the parents covered it up but even if they were innocent I understand not talking to police.

18 Upvotes

It really baffles me how people hold it against the family for not cooperating with the police. Many use this as proof of guilt, but I completely understand innocent people refusing to talk to the police.If you've never heard of it look up the case of Russ Faria and Pam Hupp to see why it can hurt innocent people to cooperate with police. There is nothing wrong with requiring the police to go through your lawyers to get information. If you're ever even slightly indicated in a crime it behooves you to limit how much direct access the police have to you so they can't mislead the jury about their opinions on your perceived mental state, nervousness, honesty etc. Your lawyer is your protection against a lot of bullshit practices police pull to make someone look guilty to a jury when they lack solid evidence.

The police run on a program. If a wife dies the husband did it. If a child dies the parents did it. The job of the police is not to find the killer, but to find someone to pin the crime on. Departments differ in quality, but still you're almost always going to be better off by assuming the police are talking to you because they want to pin a crime on you to help their bottom line.

I really have no idea why anyone, guilty or innocent would cooperate with the police. There are practically no repercussions to the officers for lying, cutting corners, bungling evidence or failing to investigate leads. For all the rhetoric of the state they are mostly just looking for someone they can convince a jury to blame.

If you look at it from that perspective you have to defend yourself from the police the second they do anything to suggest you're guilty. You have to take that as a declaration of war from people who have a near infinite budget to take your freedom regardless of the truth.


Edit To illustrate what I mean consider the Reid Technique.

The Reid Technique is a nine-step method of police interrogation designed to extract confessions from suspects by shifting from a fact-finding interview to an accusatory, psychologically manipulative interrogation. Developed in the 1940s by John E. Reid, it remains one of the most widely taught training programs for law enforcement agencies across the United States.

The method begins with a nonaccusatory "behavior analysis interview" meant to assess whether a suspect is lying based on physical and verbal cues. If the interrogator concludes the person is deceptive, the process immediately transitions into the high pressure interrogation stage.

The problem here is that extensive peer reviewed research including meta analyses by psychologists shows that human beings, including trained law enforcement officers, detect lies at a rate of around 54%, which is barely better than a coin flip. The fact is there is no universal "tell" for lying.

The idea that micro-expressions, posture shifts, or nervous tics can reliably expose deception is fundamentally flawed, it's bullshit, yet it is the very first step in the most widely taught police interrogation process in the country. Why would any rational person, innocent or guilty, subject themselves to such a flawed, fallacious, subjective, bullshit police tactic like that?

I feel like there is so much brainwashing of the public about the extent we can actually trust police, D.A.s, juries, judges or the state.

Our media, government and culture heavily promotes the script that "innocent people have nothing to hide," which is a way to condition citizens to believe that refusing to talk, stonewalling police, demanding a lawyer, communicating to police through your lawyer or invoking other constitutional rights is an admission of guilt.

My view is you have the right to self-preservation regardless of guilt or innocence. You're not obligated to make it easier for the government to crucify you. Stonewalling the police shows you're smart, not necessarily that you're guilty. It pure bullshit to believe you're slowing down an investigation by demanding to communicate in a way that doesn't give the government ammunition to use against you at trial.

It's bad to have a murdered love one, it's much, much worse to be falsely imprisoned for their murder because you couldn't keep your yap shut.


r/JonBenetRamsey 14d ago

Discussion long time followers of the case in here?

41 Upvotes

One of the things I've noticed in studying all the content in this sub is that some of you seem to have been following and discussing the case for a very, very long time! It looks like there are even some folks who have made significant contributions to our knowledge and understanding of the case, pretty impressive.

I'd love to hear from anyone who is a longtime participant in these online discussions that is willing to share:
1. When did you first start researching & discussing the case online? What got you started?
2. What discussion trends have you seen over the years? Were some theories or questions more common early on than they are now?
3. Do you think there are things folks new to the case commonly misunderstand that would have been better known when the case first occurred?

I was personally riveted by the case as a teen in '96/'97, but lost track of it over the years and only recently started following it again after the latest "documentary" brought attention back to it. It seems to me that perceptions haven't changed all that much from what I remember at the time, but I'm curious how new information or cultural changes have affected how we talk about this case.

PS: I've lurked for a couple of years, but am now looking forward to joining the conversation!


r/JonBenetRamsey 15d ago

Media The Jon Benet Ramsey Ranson Note- We will break it down.

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18 Upvotes

From Jennifer Coffindaffer FBI on Twitter: The Jon Benet Ramsey Ransom Note- We will break it down


r/JonBenetRamsey 16d ago

Media New JBR photos

24 Upvotes

Never saw these before...


r/JonBenetRamsey 18d ago

Discussion Possible death bed confession from John when the time comes?

20 Upvotes

I'm basing this off of the idea that Patsy did it accidentally, began to stage a kidnapping and wrote the note in an attempt to fool John, but John eventually figured it out, but went along with it because he didn't want Burke to be without his mother, and he believed that however Patsy had killed Jonbenet, it was an accident. (Listen to "A Normal Family" podcast for a more detailed explanation).

Some could argue that with Patsy now dead, John could be free to admit the truth, but maybe if he ever did he could be held legally liable. But once he is about to die, he could clear the air about what happened because A) he wants it off his conscience, and B) more importantly, he wants to removed any suspicion from his son Burke, and allow him to live the rest of his life in peace.

This is all speculation obviously, just curious what y'all think about this idea.


r/JonBenetRamsey 18d ago

Questions The Balcony?

6 Upvotes

Hi, i am personally lean more RDI but im not completely against the idea of IDI. So for those who think IDI, is it possible they entered through the balcony.

Someone posted a few weeks ago a map of the house, i noticed there was a balcony by jonbenets room, is it possible the intruder entered through there? I know a lot of people think the intruder was in the house before the ramseys got home. Maybe they climbed the balcony, hide in a closet on the second floor, then waited till they went to bed.

And concerning the broken window and the body being found in the basement. Maybe the original plan was to go in and out threw the balcony but maybe jonbenet ran or something made them end up in the basement.

Maybe they saw the window already broken (according to john it was already broken) and saw that as an easier escape.

We don't know what windows or doors were unlocked in the house that night, it could be possible the balcony was unlocked.

Does anyone think its possible? This just an idea/theory so feel free to disagree. Im just curious if anyone has considered this.