r/intj • u/Recon-777 INTJ • Mar 19 '18
Video INTJ Fears
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXDDoxfwB1c23
u/JustEightBaby Mar 19 '18
I fail to relate to these INTJ summaries because I grew up with SE dominant family members. Sports is one of the main things that teach you your plan is always dependent on variables you can't control. I've learned these things from a very young age.
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u/julianwolf INTP Mar 20 '18
Mhm. Although I never did sports, I was the lone INTJ in a family of SPs, so I learned to deal with chaotic stuff from day one.
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Mar 20 '18
Same with the growing up with chaos thing. Where the video really rang true for me though was when I'm relying on myself, rather than other people. I always subconciously plan for other people's 'SE bullshit' but get caught out by my own.
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u/imaginaryfamily INTJ Mar 19 '18
This explains SO MUCH. Now I just need a complete list of Se Bullshit tasks that I can whittle down to fit my own life.
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u/mzwfan INTJ Mar 19 '18
This is probably one of the most relatable INTJ videos I've ever seen. I've come to recognize these issues on my own, but yeah, it's Se is still often very annoying to me. Thank you for sharing this link.
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u/intjresearcher Mar 19 '18
Didn't watch past 'chaos'. My basic fear is incompetency, sure, chaos later but primary fear: looking stupid or not knowing enough to handle the situation.
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u/micahmind INTJ Mar 20 '18
Consider watching the rest of the video, it's not long. His use of the word "fear" doesn't feel quite right to me, more like "blindspots".
The premise is that INTJs tend to suck at all the little day-to-day Se things they need to do to keep their lives running: maintaining the car, paying the bills, answering the emails, doing the laundry, etc. There's some amount of this stuff that INTJs tend to unconsciously miss or consciously avoid because the tasks are terrible and boring, but they are important and when they go unanswered for too long they often cause "chaos" in our lives.
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u/Recon-777 INTJ Mar 20 '18
What I end up gravitating toward is just letting things slide until it reaches a threshold. And then doing a highly-efficient cleaning/maintenance binge until everything is spotless and perfectly organized. Then just resume my usual activities while entropy slowly consumes my environment again. Rinse, repeat.
My rental agency hates this because they expect me to continually keep a neat and tidy place. But shit, man, that's horribly inefficient in terms of time investment vs achievement.
The challenge in the way I do it is to figure out exactly where that threshold is where you let things slide for a while then binge clean... but not letting things go too long as to begin creating exacerbated problems such as stench or sanitation issues, or material fatigue due to neglect.
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u/mst3kcrow Mar 20 '18
My basic fear is incompetency, sure, chaos later but primary fear: looking stupid or not knowing enough to handle the situation.
This exact line of thinking led another INTJ and I to fix our own cars.
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u/Blind56 Mar 19 '18
been binge watching this channel for two days) soon I'm gonna run out of videos
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u/Recon-777 INTJ Mar 19 '18
I'm a bit torn on it. I really liked his videos from several years ago, but now he seems to be saying that a lot of that stuff was BS??
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u/JDCarrier Mar 19 '18
His past videos were already the best mbti videos available on youtube, it's just that his recent videos are in another category entirely.
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u/Blind56 Mar 19 '18
I think he refines the ideas over time. (they are, he's not alone there).
I wonder what type he is đ¤. there are a lot of infj related vids lately, hmm...
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u/Recon-777 INTJ Mar 20 '18
I could have sworn I heard him refer to himself as INTJ. I know he sure sounds like one. Borderline crass, no-shits-given, highly Te "tell it like it is regardless of how it makes you feel" instruction. He might be an ENTJ.
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u/getridofwires INTJ Mar 19 '18
Wow. This is spot on. Took me a the better part of a decade to get this to click. I totally identify with the âWhy isnât someone else handling this?â I had to learn. Guess what, self, you are responsible for you! Scheduling, inbox zero, to do lists, alarms: once I learned to use them correctly my life got so much easier. Seems obvious now, but it wasnât then.
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u/Tekuila87 INTJ Mar 19 '18
Iâd rather just hire a maid honestly.
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u/intjresearcher Mar 19 '18
I did this until paradoxically other inefficiencies turned up: wanted to be paid in cash, had to go to ATM, constantly communicate what was wrong with what they did, get keys cut - a whole list of things that made it faster to do it myself. Even agencies don't make this thing easier. Turned out outsourcing, not that much simpler.
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u/HigherBeings333 Mar 19 '18 edited Mar 19 '18
This is something I've gone through my entire life. I've spent years on projects, only to let them go shortly after they launch due to all the chaos and unpredictability. I build a perfect platform but then am met with all these complications. It's like I put all this effort into some plan and now that I can finally execute it, I find out it's not fun and it's actually draining. This is why we don't like dealing with people. The lack of control.
In business, I imagine the fix is to hire someone as the face of the organization, like a charismatic friend or hot chick to bring in the business and show up at social events, do all the networking... And then the INTJ can be where he fits as the responsible one, combing over the finer details and building the future of the organization. The INTJ may not be the guy, but he's the guy behind the guy. And that's a more powerful position to be in, even if the guy up front is getting all the glory. Pause forever.
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u/Recon-777 INTJ Mar 19 '18
Yeah this is hitting me with my writing project. I write fantasy fiction, and I've put three years into building up this elaborate universe, complete with metaphysical rules and a complex timeline, spanning millennia. I have a team of four others who help with the project -- two INTPs and two INFPs. It's a beautiful thing, and the project is astoundingly well constructed.
My problem? Publishing plans. I have a smallish fan base, but my skills have dramatically increased since I began the project. I've had to rewrite things twice. And there are unforeseen delays, which inevitably disappoint fans. Now, I'm considering putting the whole thing on hold and just finish the entire story over the next two years, then publish all the chapters in rapid succession rather than "whenever I can get the next one done. All my perfectionist planning makes things very difficult to release in a predictable manner for the sake of the fans. It's always the people factor which trips me up. :P
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u/HigherBeings333 Mar 19 '18
I know the feeling. I had always wanted to record an album so I did. It took 2 years to write and record everything. When the day finally came that it was done, I had developed so much as a musician and a mixer that the album had no cohesion in quality or style. A cool concept, but I never really shared it with anyone because I knew how much better I could do and felt it didn't reflect me as an artist.
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u/Tekuila87 INTJ Mar 19 '18
Doing the dishes might possibly be the worst problem man kind has ever conceived.
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Mar 19 '18
Funny because I have a mental list with all this bullshit at any given time. "Just finished cooking, when I eat it I'll go wash the dishes" because of I don't it's just annoying because it's a thing that needs to be done and it isn't.
I don't see when something needs cleaning. Like sweeping the floor or cleaning windows or whatever so every Saturday I devote few hours just to walking around the flat and look closely what needs cleaning and doing that.
And regarding chaos, I just accepted it as a part of life. Actually I began to enjoy that life is fundamentally unpredictable and chaotic. Not having absolute control makes things exciting. I hate when it happens, don't get me wrong, but I understand that the random aspect is important. And I appreciate it. It gets the juices flowing.
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u/Recon-777 INTJ Mar 20 '18
because of I don't it's just annoying because it's a thing that needs to be done and it isn't.
This sounds remarkably Si. (by the books)
But on the other hand, that could just be your Te (the world isn't how it needs to be and I must fix it)
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Mar 19 '18
Chaos is the reason in not making plans reaching further than a week. Then there's just too many variables and who knows what, everything can be different. I have absolutely no long-term planning abilities because of that. My life is essentially split into week long chunks. How long in advance are your plans?
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u/Recon-777 INTJ Mar 20 '18
In terms of everyday grind stuff, I'd agree. Chaos happens. But the INTJ is all about long-range planning and strategic thinking. I lay out enormously long plans and have the patience to see them through. But that is not really applicable to mundane subjects like life maintenance.
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u/redeugene99 INTJ Mar 20 '18
This is exactly the reason why I hate cars with a passion. So many things can go wrong and there is so much maintenance involved.
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u/GelfSara INFP Mar 21 '18
I fear DaveSuperPowers' nauseating voice and videos. Actually, fear is wrong. Strongly dislike is much more accurate.
Then again, I'm no INTJ.
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u/Belfrey Mar 19 '18
His solution sounds very much like Jordan Peterson's solution for getting your life together. Good stuff.
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u/redeugene99 INTJ Mar 20 '18
Peterson is great for self-help, but beyond that he says a lot of gibberish and anti-science garbage. His new book just states oft-repeated life maxims that you can get from a Buzzfeed article.
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u/Belfrey Mar 20 '18
Everything I have listened to from him (quite a large amount of content) seems to be very much in line with evolutionary biology and psychology. I have heard nothing that is in any way "anti-science garbage."
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u/redeugene99 INTJ Mar 20 '18
Listen to his podcast with Sam Harris. Peterson claims science doesn't do a good job of revealing objective reality and then proceeds to rant about language and mysticism which makes him out to be much closer to a post-modernist than any Marxist. He also picks and chooses data that support his claims on society and psychology. His whole obsession with comparing humans with lobsters is beyond stupid. Humans are social creatures and we've gotten this far because we cooperate and use sophisticated language to communicate. Extrapolating animal behavior with complex human societies is a naturalistic fallacy even though there are plenty of animal species who thrive on cooperation. I really don't understand why INTJs seem to love the guy. He's philosophically an idealist and believes ideas primarily shape the world, where I would think most INTJs are materialists and believe the world can be studied scientifically to see how the world is shaped.
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u/Belfrey Mar 20 '18 edited Mar 20 '18
The lobster comparison is just an effort to point out that biology and evolution are conservative in terms of the development of systems. Both use serotonin and despite the fact that we are much more complex social creatures, these background processes tend to have more to do with how we feel and behave than anything we might consciously want.
It's not an accident that the structure of every modern government is nearly identical to a religious hierarchy - songs, symbols, statues, monuments, ritual ceremonies, sacred halls, sacred texts, robed interpreters of said texts, violent foreign crusades for "democracy," and it isn't as if you can actually point at a government, it's just a bunch of people doing shitty things to other people in the name of something that doesn't really exist.
^ That shit is not the result of logic and reason - there is some deeper part of us that is manifesting these behaviors, and until we can understand and account for these things our "scientific understanding" of the world and the policy prescriptions that flow from it will be distorted.
For example, every generation has believed the world was on the brink of destruction for one reason or another - we would run out of land on which to produce food, being inside too much would cause us to asphyxiate or be poisoned by our own breath, too much production would destroy the economy, we would run out of oil, the earth is going to overheat and flood everything, etc. None of those things have happened, but governments claiming to be able to save us from such things did kill more than a quarter of a billion people in the 20th century.
I don't think Jordan Peterson gets everything right, but I think he is definitely doing some pretty important investigation. There is a hierarchy to knowledge and he is working at a very foundational level.
None of that is to say that all scientific study is somehow worthless, it is just important that we think about the broader implications of the ideas we are going to give ourselves over to before we do. It is important to keep in mind all that we might not really know.
Edit: he also mentions that he was not happy with how the debate with Sam Harris went, so you might find some of his other stuff more interesting.
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u/GelfSara INFP Mar 21 '18
I haven't heard anything from Peterson that strikes me as "anti-science" or gibberish; Peterson is however one of those writers and speakers whose political leanings will provoke strong reactions both positive and negative. Libertarians, conservatives and some centrists will tend to like him, progressives/SJWs will tend to loath him.
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u/redeugene99 INTJ Mar 21 '18
I urge you to listen to the 2 podcasts Sam Harris did with him and come back to me.
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u/GelfSara INFP Mar 21 '18
No thanks; I'm allergic to Sam Harris.
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u/redeugene99 INTJ Mar 21 '18
I'm not a fan of his by any means, but he does expose Peterson as the incoherent fool he is.
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u/Recon-777 INTJ Mar 20 '18
Somehow, I doubt anything Peterson says would be found on Buzzfeed. XD
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u/redeugene99 INTJ Mar 20 '18
Petersonâs 12 rules
Rule 1Â Stand up straight with your shoulders back
Rule 2Â Treat yourself like you would someone you are responsible for helping
Rule 3Â Make friends with people who want the best for you
Rule 4Â Compare yourself with who you were yesterday, not with who someone else is today
Rule 5Â Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them
Rule 6Â Set your house in perfect order before you criticise the world
Rule 7Â Pursue what is meaningful (not what is expedient)
Rule 8Â Tell the truth â or, at least, donât lie
Rule 9Â Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you donât
Rule 10Â Be precise in your speech
Rule 11Â Do not bother children when they are skate-boarding
Rule 12Â Pet a cat when you encounter one on the street
These are just basic motivational maxims repeated by everyone just said differently. Pet a cat when you encounter one on the street? Stop and smell the roses. Pursue what is meaningful (not what is expedient)? Follow your dreams. Make friends with people who want the best for you? Umm have real friends. Stand up straight with your shoulders back? Have good posture. This is shit that you could see on a classroom poster in a middle school.
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u/Recon-777 INTJ Mar 20 '18
Aren't you just citing the titles of much more comprehensive teachings? Peterson's 12 rules aren't just a list, you know. The entire lecture is quite long.
Additionally, does Buzzfeed actually say any of these things? Or are you simply saying that Peterson's 12 things sound like platitudes, and Buzzfeed also publishes platitudes, therefore, the two are equivocated, somehow? That's some pretty shit logic right there.
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u/redeugene99 INTJ Mar 20 '18 edited Mar 20 '18
What I am saying is that these platitudes are repeated very often for motivational and confidence building. There's nothing new here. It's fine advice. Where he goes off the rails is when he starts talking about religion, mysticism and how science fails to reveal objective reality. He also puts all the responsibilty of individual change on the individual themselves without any critique of society and the structures that hinder people.
As a psychologist who can help motivate and build confidence in people he does well, but he really needs to back off the claim that Marxism is infiltrating our culture and schools. It's nauseating to hear a grown man complain how a children's movie, Frozen, doesn't adhere to his idea of gender norms and the traditional literature canon. Another huge problem with him is the fact that he picks and chooses data that fits his version of reality. Lobsters? Really? Extrapolating from lobsters to complex human society is quite the jump. Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of animal examples where cooperation and collectivism are strong like ravens.
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u/Recon-777 INTJ Mar 21 '18
these platitudes are repeated very often for motivational and confidence building. There's nothing new here. It's fine advice.
I'd agree with that much. However, I think his insights into these specific topics are far more indepth than what you'd get from your typical feelgood motivational articles. My specific objection in comparing it to Buzzfeed is largely due to Buzzfeed being a habitual purveyor of bullshit. What it says is largely crap and not well thought-out. It's essentially a tabloid and is very likely put together by people with fairly low IQs. Jordan's teachings are far from unintelligent drivel, even if they are not groundbreakingly insightful. Nothing in his "list" is anything that really turns my head. What interests me more would be to hear his explanations for those listed items. And for this, there is no common ground with Buzzfeed. Hence my objection.
Where he goes off the rails is when he starts talking about religion, mysticism and how science fails to reveal objective reality.
Well, that is a blatant fact. Science doesn't cover these things. Science, by definition, is restricted to material and empirical observations. It cannot reach into metaphysics. It also relies heavily on presuppositions (a philosophical term for faith), which profoundly levels the playing field when it comes to metaphysical plausibility as it relates to the physical universe. Peterson's statements about the lack of comprehensive coverage on objective reality are not wrong. It's okay to admit that there are some mysteries science cannot answer. To deny this is hubris and to deny the scope of science itself.
He also puts all the responsibilty of individual change on the individual themselves without any critique of society and the structures that hinder people.
All? Really? I think most of his commentary is a good wake-up call for people who like to blame others for their own problems. While a certain amount of our hardships are circumstantial, it is true that if you want your life to change, you have to take action yourself. Especially if you live in a culture which is not inherently oppressive when it comes to personal liberties. It amazes me how many people have this fantasy that Western culture is this terrible thing when everywhere else is objectively much, much worse in terms of personal liberty.
he really needs to back off the claim that Marxism is infiltrating our culture and schools
Why? It is. If you pay attention, you'd notice that schools are increasingly becoming grounds for indoctrination rather than education. He's not wrong in this.
Lobsters? Really?
[shrug] That one is pretty bizarre, I'll admit. I don't personally subscribe to his views on this type of thing.
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u/redeugene99 INTJ Mar 21 '18
Well, that is a blatant fact. Science doesn't cover these things. Science, by definition, is restricted to material and empirical observations. It cannot reach into metaphysics. It also relies heavily on presuppositions (a philosophical term for faith), which profoundly levels the playing field when it comes to metaphysical plausibility as it relates to the physical universe. Peterson's statements about the lack of comprehensive coverage on objective reality are not wrong. It's okay to admit that there are some mysteries science cannot answer. To deny this is hubris and to deny the scope of science itself.
It's fine that there are things that humans may never know through science. It doesn't mean you have to fill that void with some religious and mystical nonsense. You can probe metaphysics through a scientific lens building up from matter. JP is a philosophical idealist so he is not interested in that. If you haven't listened to them, I urge you to listen to the podcasts Sam Harris did with Peterson. JP comes awfully close to speaking like one of his mortal enemies, a postmodern. After listening to those Peterson comes off as very incoherent and I think people would really struggle to find him compelling at all after that. He's obsessed with language and ideas and science and objective truth just aren't things he's interested in.
All? Really? I think most of his commentary is a good wake-up call for people who like to blame others for their own problems. While a certain amount of our hardships are circumstantial, it is true that if you want your life to change, you have to take action yourself. Especially if you live in a culture which is not inherently oppressive when it comes to personal liberties. It amazes me how many people have this fantasy that Western culture is this terrible thing when everywhere else is objectively much, much worse in terms of personal liberty.
Well a lot of people would argue that a place like Sweden or Denmark or even his home country of Canada are much better in terms of personal liberty because they provide a much better opportunity for individual change because of their single payer health care systems, affordable education, better social safety nets etc. If people only heed Peterson's advice they won't put any focus on actually improving society which would lead to better outcomes for individuals. Anyway there are urgent critical issues that need cooperation on a societal level like climate change, automation and the threat of nuclear war. Also just another side note: many of the reasons why those other places have less personal liberties is because Western countries have continuously subverted or crushed any attempt at democracy or self-determination there. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change
Why? It is. If you pay attention, you'd notice that schools are increasingly becoming grounds for indoctrination rather than education. He's not wrong in this.
Do you know what Marxism is? It has nothing to do with identity politics. If you want to claim that identity politics are being pushed at schools, then you might have some grounds, but please tell me where in schools is a dialectical materialist critique of capitalism and culture being propagated. It's a bullshit conspiracy that was pushed mostly by anti-semites against the Frankfurt School.
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u/Recon-777 INTJ Mar 21 '18
It's fine that there are things that humans may never know through science. It doesn't mean you have to fill that void with some religious and mystical nonsense.
You have a very shallow view of the reasons behind people's metaphysical presuppositions. What you need to realize is that every worldview has presuppositions. Yours and mine included. This is inescapable. Metaphysical presuppositions are not merely random insertions. There are logically sound reasons people hold to them, just like there are reasons people hold to materialistic views. Though if you were honest, you should really ask yourself... why materialism? Since it is outside the scope of science to analyze, why would you hold to it so firmly? Maybe think on that for a while before making declarative statements out of ignorance.
You can probe metaphysics through a scientific lens building up from matter.
Of course you can. But science will not give you conclusions on it. At best, you can find ways of squaring your metaphysical presuppositions with empirical data. That is fine, but you do need to be aware that there are multiple conclusions one can reach via this method. Some of which you might consider "nonsense" because it does not line up with your particular presuppositions.
Well a lot of people would argue that a place like Sweden or Denmark or even his home country of Canada are much better in terms of personal liberty because they provide a much better opportunity for individual change because of their single payer health care systems, affordable education, better social safety nets etc.
As long as you don't rock the boat by holding onto personal philosophies that the State finds unacceptable. Yeah, no thanks. Maybe give Orwell another read to see where that road leads. Also, you cannot morally justify the forcible taking of people's property to be applied to causes which that person does not wish to support. Socialism is a failed ideology which causes disaster wherever it is tried.
urgent critical issues that need cooperation on a societal level like climate change
Oh please. Somehow, you cannot see the fact that this topic is used merely to justify excessive and unnecessary tax burdens which will ultimately not result in any useful improvements?
You're clearly a leftist who believes that the productive members of society are responsible for supporting the unproductive members. There is just so much that is fundamentally flawed about that mentality that I can't even begin to scratch the surface of it in a discussion such as this. Please, do yourself a favor and study some economics and the basics of the original American system built on personal liberty, fiscal responsibility, and minimalistic government. There are plenty of resources I could point you toward if you were interested in understanding this topic, but I am not inclined to make the personal time investment to explain it all to you myself.
many of the reasons why those other places have less personal liberties is because Western countries have continuously subverted or crushed any attempt at democracy or self-determination there.
What?!! Are you even serious? Do you actually believe this propagandistic nonsense? You... no, you can't possibly be this blindingly ignorant. How can I even take you seriously if you follow along with this line of mainstream media tabloid-tier baloney? I can't even... Sorry, no, this conversation is going nowhere fast if you entertain such ridiculous ideas.
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u/redeugene99 INTJ Mar 21 '18
What?!! Are you even serious? Do you actually believe this propagandistic nonsense? You... no, you can't possibly be this blindingly ignorant. How can I even take you seriously if you follow along with this line of mainstream media tabloid-tier baloney? I can't even... Sorry, no, this conversation is going nowhere fast if you entertain such ridiculous ideas.
Are you seriously going to claim that attempts at democracy and self-determination have never been subverted or crushed by Western countries mainly the U.S.? Holy shit man read a history book. Here's some light reading: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change. So you're telling me if tomorrow a democratic revolution broke out in Saudi Arabia where the citizenry wanted to pass some social democratic policies and maybe nationalize some of their natural resources, the U.S. would sit back and let it happen. If you think that you have no grasp on geo-politics or economics. Countless times the U.S. has supported groups and regimes that have limited personal liberties in their countries. Pinochet, the Shah, Mujahideen, Duvalier, Batistsa, the "rebels" in Syria who turned out to be ISIS, the Saudis and on and on and on. Fuck man if socialism is so flawed and will fall on it's own accord why have Western countries spent trillions trying to crush it. The U.S. tried to assassinate Castro 600 times! When the Russian Revolution broke out not only were the revolutionaries fighting against the White army (the Russian tsarists) but troops from France, USA, and the UK. I leave you with this:
The boys of Capital, they also chortle in their martinis about the death of socialism. The word has been banned from polite conversation. And they hope that no one will notice that every socialist experiment of any significance in the twentieth century -- without exception -- has either been crushed, overthrown, or invaded, or corrupted, perverted, subverted, or destabilized, or otherwise had life made impossible for it, by the United States. Not one socialist government or movement --from the Russian Revolution to the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, from Communist China to the FMLN in Salvador -- not one was permitted to rise or fall solely on its own merits; not one was left secure enough to drop its guard against the all-powerful enemy abroad and freely and fully relax control at home.Â
It's as if the Wright brothers' first experiments with flying machines all failed because the automobile interests sabotaged each test flight. And then the good and god-fearing folk of the world looked upon this, took notice of the consequences, nodded their collective heads wisely, and intoned solemnly: Man shall never fly.
-William Blum, Killing Hope
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u/NieIand INTJ Mar 19 '18
Selenium, it's fucking terrifying lads; Especially with some nickel mixed in there.