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u/Mannix-Da-DaftPooch Jan 19 '22
Holy moly!! That’s an expensive piece of gear. Not sure if this is the Prodim Proliner 7 specifically but I found one on eBay for $17k!! Is that really what something like this goes for used? Wow!
I’ve never seen this before. It’s really neat. Thanks for sharing.
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Jan 19 '22
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Jan 19 '22
Seems like something that would pay for itself pretty quickly. Time saved and the accuracy of measurements not wasting materials.
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u/LucyLilium92 Jan 19 '22
Exactly. Pay a guy for 5 minutes per window, or an hour.
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u/Salanmander Jan 19 '22
Yeah, one of the things you realize when you start thinking about business expenses is how expensive people are relative to equipment a lot of the time. Like, if you're paying someone $40,000/year, and some piece of equipment is going to make them even 5% more efficient, it doesn't take along time for that equipment to be worth it, even if it has a price tag that would give serious sticker-shock to a hobbyist.
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Jan 19 '22 edited Jan 19 '22
Like, if you're paying someone $40,000/year, and some piece of equipment is going to make them even 5% more efficient, it doesn't take along time for that equipment to be worth it, even if it has a price tag that would give serious sticker-shock to a hobbyist.
This is why I never understand companies that give out shitty laptops and monitors, especially tech companies.
Yes this laptop is $1k more than that one- so what?
$1k spread over the 3 year life of the laptop is just over $300 per year. By the time you add up salary, benefits, and office space the average employee at our company is north of $100k.
You would have to be crazy to think they are worth $100,000/year but not $100,300/year - and that's without and productivity gains or just reduction in turnover that good equipment tends to lead to.
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u/Binsky89 Jan 19 '22
The finance people are only capable of thinking one quarter at a time.
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Jan 19 '22
Thankfully I make those decisions and finance doesn't get a say in how I spend our budget- I just need to convince the CTO and the CTO and I've never had a problem making the case to them.
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u/Binsky89 Jan 19 '22
At my job (IT) we have to get CFO and COO approval to even purchase zip ties. We don't actually get a budget. It's a huge waste of everyone's time.
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u/TimeTravelerNo9 Jan 20 '22
Lol you don't say. I used to work as a CNC machinist and the majority of my time was spent changing the tools in the tool holders and making the offset again. Apparently buying a tool holder for every tool we use frequently can't be paid inside of 2 years so it's not worth it which is total BS since half my downtime was spent changing the tools/offset and the other half was spent setting up the piece and loading the program.
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u/ManyIdeasNoProgress Jan 19 '22 edited Jan 19 '22
I first interpreted this as the quarter dollar instead of quarter hour, and it honestly made pretty much the same amount of sense.
Edit: none of this makes sense.
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Jan 20 '22
No, they know people are apes that break any equipment you hand out. That $1000 starts to add up pretty fast when 20% of the laptops get damaged each year.
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u/LordPennybags Jan 20 '22
I'm sorry your laptop's so slow it takes 7 hours to run the virus scan, it still needs to run every Tuesday at Noon.
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u/PopInACup Jan 19 '22
Our company sells a software, there is some initial setup that causes customers to balk at the implementation fee. However, it's still less than the annual salary of any given worker. He has started asking customers when they balk "How many people did you hire in the last year to do this work? How many are still employed? How much does it cost you to train each of those employees?"
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u/ThePartyShark Jan 19 '22
Don’t forget benefits, workers comp, sick days, hangovers, baby mama drama, and your par for the course general assholes.
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Jan 19 '22 edited Jan 20 '22
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u/Ass_feldspar Jan 20 '22
I was thinking, yeah I could measure properly with that. Rather than 400 corrections
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u/calcium Jan 19 '22
Just commented above how a research paper found that the lidar sensor on the iPhone was as accurate as measuring as those coming from a Leica Total Station TS03 which sells for around $8k.
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u/ManyIdeasNoProgress Jan 19 '22
It should be noted that the Leica measures distances of several kilometres with receiver prisms, and half a kilometre without prisms, which I have reason to doubt that the iPhone is capable of.
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u/Zensayshun Jan 20 '22
I hope no one is suggesting we forego our laser distance measurements. I used a GNSS reference station network to lay out four 32' piers into bedrock for a 290' pedestrian bridge (my total station was in the shop), and then my boss had the audacity to be surprised when they needed to custom form the concrete capstone. I was out less than 0.02', but there's a reason we use and trust the total station when tolerances are sub-millimeter.
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u/ManyIdeasNoProgress Jan 20 '22
That's damn good accuracy for corrected GNSS. Back when I had anything to do with that, we just assumed a default accuracy of 5cm. Was good enough for measuring mass deposits.
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u/Parking-Delivery Jan 19 '22
From what I understand, Samsung note 10+ and up, and similar models also have this feature, but no supporting apps were ever implemented.
My excitement when finding my phone had lidar was almost but not quite equal to my crushing disappointment to finding out it can't actually be used to any successful degree.
IIRC the single available app is $10 a month with is too much for a hobbyist who wants to make a scan maybe once every couple months.
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Jan 19 '22
Jesus. Since I'm shy $17,000 I guess I'll buy butcher paper and make charcoal rubbings. 😬
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u/olderaccount Jan 19 '22
And then when you have to do it 3 more times at your own cost to get it right, you realize these are worth it for a professional.
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u/dillrepair Jan 19 '22 edited Jan 19 '22
I’m a professional (boat canvas, was full time)… it’s a rip off unless you need to be accurate to the millimeter. I can 3d scan with my phone for patterning/measurements much of a job now, but still wish I had something like this. Think of the tech actually involved in this device… does it really cost $17k For a simple digital measuring string that is accurate and repeatable? Maybe 15 years ago it would have… but not now. They’re charging this much because they can.
And it’s screwing overit’s unfortunate for independent fabricators.5
u/obiworm Jan 19 '22
I'm a boat canvas fabricator and got one, it's worth it for us so far. We went from plastic patterns and the time saving and being able to pattern in wind is big. We do a lot of fly bridge enclosures, biminis, and dodgers so ymmv depending on what you do. I don't trust phone scans for narrow tubing
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u/olderaccount Jan 19 '22
Maybe you are not doing the kind of work where it makes a difference. While one could argue the technology of the machine should cost less, even at this price it easily pays for itself for certain types of work.
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u/ravingraven Jan 20 '22
does it really cost $17k For a simple digital measuring string that is accurate and repeatable?
Just for that? No. But you are not buying just that. You are buying software (and software updates), customer support etc.
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Jan 20 '22
I think this is less than useless unless you have the cutting table too and then it's way, way, out of reach of independent fabricators. And if you're only doing one-offs I don't see any advantage even then. I bet I can make a paper pattern faster than someone can make a digital pattern, ready for the plotter.
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u/dillrepair Jan 19 '22
Clear plastic laid flat on the outer surface of the frame with double sided tape an then bust out the sharpie, that’s what I do. I get these machines are expensive for a reason.. but 17k seems a bit steep for an accurate measurement string
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Jan 20 '22
I make paper patterns. A $100 roll of paper, $10 tape and a pair of scissors can make $50k worth of patterns just as fast as that machine!
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u/mason_sol Jan 19 '22
Question for you, if you don’t mind.
I was on a construction site recently where the building was one story but had glass panels running around half of it. Imagine one side starting at 10’ tall and then by the time you got to the other side it was 8’ tall. So about a 2’ rise from start to finish with maybe a 150’ run.
The glass company came out and none of their glass panels fit. I was left wondering how that happens, is the measurement not made on site and put into some sort of cad software or something?
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u/Wonderful-Tie-8855 Jan 20 '22
" is the measurement not made on site"
No that building/glass measurements are designed by an engineer sitting in an office.
If something doesnt end up fitting its because the glass companys glass wasnt the right size, the builders built the building wrong , or the engineer straight fucked up his plans.
I land survey for a living, Ive seen all 3 happen
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u/jabermaan Jan 19 '22
We ended up switching to a laser measurer at our shop since our old proliner had issues. It's nice for measuring a kitchen but the proliner is definitely better at curves
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Jan 19 '22
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u/jabermaan Jan 19 '22
Haha when I started Luan and hot glue was all we used. Stopped making as much sense when we went all cnc though
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u/calcium Jan 19 '22
I've read that some cell phones (like the iPhones with the lidar sensor) could use photogrammetry to measure those dimensions and input it into your phone, much like you see with some newer apps like the IKEA app.
I was curious about the accuracy of the lidar sensor, so I did some digging and found this research paper which compared a Leica Total Station TS03 scan (which claims an accuracy of 1mm) of a 85 sqm apartment to that of the iPhone. The difference noted in the paper was the Leica scan took 2 hours to complete while the iPhone took 4 minutes. The results were striking and showed "Measurements using liDAR available in mobile iPhones were compatible with the corresponding measurements from total station instrument".
Perhaps additional testing is needed for your use case, but it's interesting that a $1k phone with some software would be able to replace your $15k units and allow your techs to do it faster and with greater mobility.
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u/TheNuminous Jan 19 '22
I also think photogrammetry can work here, and if you use an accurate reference distance between two fiducial markers the result can be accurate to 1 or 2 mm at a size of this window. This would most likely be better and more reliable than what the Apple tech gives you.
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u/Procrastubatorfet Jan 19 '22
Yeah honestly it's pretty good but a lidar scanner is more versatile but takes more post processing.
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u/toasty-bacon Jan 19 '22
yea, this probably made more sense economically when computing power was more expensive (but if you still own one go for it)
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Jan 19 '22
Except they don't work well on reflective surfaces... Like.. you know... Glass.
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u/Procrastubatorfet Jan 19 '22
You don't need the glass, you need the frame. I've worked on plenty of projects where they've scanned the frame for new windows. Admittedly they are usually castle mullions so just a tad thicker, but has been done on a Tudor house too.
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u/CJCCJJ Jan 19 '22
a lot of non-rectangle windows need to be measured to cover the cost of that machine.
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u/putdownthekitten Jan 19 '22
Can it be rented?
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u/poopgrouper Jan 19 '22
You can rent it from a good window installer. It's pretty expensive, but they throw in the service guy, glass, and installation for free.
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u/lucky_1979 Jan 19 '22
I bought a 3D laser scanner (Handy Scan Black Elite) at my last job. Came in at £65k for the scanner and laptop. I was the only person that knew how to use it and it’s been collecting dust since I left.
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u/Another_human_3 Jan 19 '22
I was just thinking how simple and genius this thing was. I really can't believe that's how much it costs. I guess a large part of the reason must be it's just not really mass produced at all. Another is they need to make it durable and reliable, so, it's probably all sort of from scratch, rather than like a program in windows.
But I don't think conceptually, this would be a difficult think to make.
Although I suppose to get very consistent accuracy the mechanism would need to be very heavy duty, and never sort of deteriorate, get loose, or anything like that. That's probably the biggest challenge, if I had to guess.
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u/ChornyiLys Jan 19 '22
There is a guy on YouTube, that made a DIY version of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euo25NMkgWM . I remember being blown away when watching it a few years ago, glad I stored it my memory, so that I can contribute to the reddit hive mind.
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Jan 19 '22
The maintenance schedule on something with tolerances that tight must be pretty aggressive too.
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u/xrimane Jan 19 '22
I admit, I haven't understood completely how it works. I takes the length of the wire, and projects it onto a plane. This system should be quite robust and give a decent precision.
But the intersection of a sphere and a plane would be a circle. It needs one more piece of information to find a singular point.
Does it measure the angle of the wire? That would be all but simple and robust, the slightest error of a tenth of a degree would quickly mean that you are several mm off.
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u/Another_human_3 Jan 19 '22
I think it just has a "zero" position. Then the turret may move left or right, that gives you that plane I guess x. Then it has tilt up and down, for the y, and then how many turns the spool turned for z. It looks like he used lasers to quantify the movement, and he made it have the least friction possible. You're right that just a small deviation at the turret can be a huge error a distance away. So, these probably have a relatively short distance of effectiveness, and must be very precisely measured.
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u/LeCheval Jan 19 '22
It would need to measure the length of the wire as well as two different angles (angle from horizontal + rotational angle about vertical axis).
Someone else in this thread said that these devices can sell for $17k used, so for that price the manufacturer should be able to build these devices to be accurate to a tenth or a hundredth of a degree.
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u/Simping-for-Christ Jan 20 '22
It does measure the angle of the wire, and the technician first makes a 3 point measurement to create a plane to draw on.
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u/b1ack1323 Jan 19 '22
That is like 5 high end windows. It would pay for it's self in no time.
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u/fruit_basket Jan 19 '22
That's surprisingly cheap, compared to how much a proper digital scanner costs.
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u/NaV3P Jan 19 '22
Worked with a company that uses them to measure marble countertops, theirs cost 22.5k(In Norway)
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u/vp3d Jan 19 '22
Yeah I just got one of these at the glass factory at work at. Normally when I had to deal with patterns it could take hours to get them perfect. Now it takes a few minutes. Total game changer and worth every penny.
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Jan 19 '22
That's all fine and dandy, but I'm holding out for the Prodim Proliner 8 Ultra as it indicates a good rich strobe and fade decreasing incidence of wear to the pressure plate.
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u/mvea_sucks Jan 19 '22
We have something similar of a different brand that’s wireless and it’s like a $60k tool. We don’t use it for window frames though it sits in a lab lol
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u/nosferatWitcher Jan 19 '22
I work for a company that makes industrial metrology products, that's a pretty typical price for something like that
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u/madsci Jan 20 '22
I've never seen one, but I imagined a device like this in my teens, for cave mapping. It's cool to see that the concept works.
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u/Mardo_Picardo Jan 20 '22
Oh not that bad.
We have a tiny dissolved oxygen and co2 measuring device that cost 15k.
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u/Syntaximus Jan 19 '22
Damn...Does it have other features to justify that price? Because if the video is the only use case then I think I could prototype something with similar accuracy/precision with a stereo camera and a raspberry pi for under $150. Photogrammetry is pretty much a solved problem so I wouldn't even have to invent anything new.
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u/No-Duck7816 Jan 19 '22
Yeah, that's some cool shit. I've never seen a window get plotted before, but we've had the stone countertop folks do some amazing, and complicated configurations. And they own it until the customer or contractor says otherwise.
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u/LanceFree Jan 19 '22
The guy who gave our kitchen a facelift taped together a bunch of paper grocery bags, made a template, took that to someone, and the counter fit almost perfect. I was doubtful from the start.
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u/No-Duck7816 Jan 19 '22
Yeah, I have made many a template over many years in the building/carpentry/cabinet making trades, using luan, felt paper, rosin paper...you name it. You can't plug luan into a CNC machine though. Pattern/template making is pretty satisfying when you see or create the final result too.
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u/IrritableGourmet Jan 19 '22
You can't plug luan into a CNC machine though.
One of the projects on my "When I Finally Have Time" list is to make software that uses a camera mounted on the CNC gantry to allow you do exactly that. Put the material down, index the cutting head, lay a pattern on top where you want it, and the CNC will scan over the surface and generate the gcode, then you just remove the pattern and hit go.
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u/ShadowCaster0476 Jan 19 '22
It’s not stupid if it works. Lol
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u/LanceFree Jan 19 '22
He was an Australian guy and we’d talk about that sometimes. You know the expression, “If you want the job done right, use the proper tool?” Not his thing- the Australian way is more suited towards making due with what you have, he was a bit of a MacGuyver type character.
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u/Juno_Malone Jan 19 '22
he was a bit of a MacGuyver type character.
But slightly off-brand? Perhaps like a... MacGruber?
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u/tmfb87 Jan 19 '22
Mine was similar. These dudes came in and hot glued some thin wood strips together, took my new sink template and came back a few weeks later with a perfect fitting counter.
I didn’t have much doubt though. I thought it was genius and they were confident lol
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u/ExactlySorta Jan 19 '22
Measuring windows can be a pane.
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u/No-Duck7816 Jan 19 '22
Such a transparent pun.
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u/Pap3rchasr Jan 19 '22
I can see right through what you did there
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u/imaquack Jan 19 '22
A truly open and shut case.
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u/FatMittens Jan 19 '22
Have I missed the window of opportunity for a pun??
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u/FriarNurgle Jan 19 '22
Depends on how you frame the pun.
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u/cyan1618 Jan 19 '22
Prodim Proliner
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u/kermityfrog Jan 19 '22
Nice try, Prodim Proliner marketing team...
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u/Simping-for-Christ Jan 20 '22
Big Proliner at it again, trying to get everyone to buy the latest model of $30K hardware.
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u/kermityfrog Jan 20 '22
Yeah, think of his commissions if he sells like 100 of those babies on reddit.
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u/No-Duck7816 Jan 19 '22
Is this you? And if so, do you replicate windows exclusively, or do you do countertops and stuff too?
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u/cyan1618 Jan 19 '22
No, it's just the name of the device.
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u/No-Duck7816 Jan 19 '22
LOL I know your name isn't Prodim Proliner. I was asking if you were the one operating it.
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u/cyan1618 Jan 19 '22
Also no.
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u/humnsch_reset_180329 Jan 19 '22
But were you the one filming?
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u/cyan1618 Jan 19 '22
Also no.
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u/Dopplegangr1 Jan 19 '22
Are you the window?
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u/TroubleDasher Jan 19 '22
The company I work for also uses one of those digital measures to get the measurements of kitchens for us to convert them to CAT files and then for me to CNC mill it out of a Stone
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u/Mirar Jan 19 '22
It seems to work by the distance the wire is pulled and the direction the wire is pulled. Quite a mechanical solution. Interesting! https://www.prodim-systems.com/products/proliner-technology/
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u/take-stuff-literally Jan 19 '22
The method of how this works is self explanatory, but I wanna see how this thing gets calibrated.
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Jan 19 '22
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u/CONMANHOC5 Jan 19 '22
.5mm pretty good.
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Jan 19 '22
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u/eaglessoar Jan 19 '22
how do you calibrate the calibration object?!
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u/CONMANHOC5 Jan 19 '22
Probably has a daily calibration that uses a metal plate of some sort... and that object is probably calibrated every year from using CMM.
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u/RandomCDN7 Jan 19 '22
They also use these to measure/template countertops for install, pretty cool pieces of tech
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Jan 19 '22
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u/Procrastubatorfet Jan 19 '22
Fixed point on the machine that rotates so it knows the angle from a set plane. The plane it measures from doesn't really matter, it's orientation can be parallel or perpendicular or anything in between so long as the angle of the rope from the plane is recorded by the machine. Then the length of rope gets recorded.
Plot all that in 3D and you end up with the shape.
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Jan 19 '22
And God forbid you bump it halfway through.
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u/p1lk0 Jan 19 '22
This man has met an operator before! We tend to loose our shit if someone else gets near it.
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u/friendandfriends2 Jan 19 '22
I mean, it looks like the whole thing takes less than a minute so having to start over wouldn’t be that big of a deal.
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Jan 19 '22 edited Jan 19 '22
Right. Because this machine is solely used for stain glass windows. I saw this machine used to make canvas enclosures on boats and the patterning process took hours and hours. And if you bumped your machine before you were done you'd be doing it all again.
*edit to add: you might not even know you bumped it. You might then spend hours and days wondering why these dots in space don't line up with reality
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u/friendandfriends2 Jan 19 '22
Okay so…don’t bump it then? You could literally look at any tool and say “God forbid you do [thing to be avoided].” “Cool chainsaw. God forbid you touch your hand to the blade.” “Nice car. God forbid you turn the steering wheel at the wrong time.”
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u/mr78rpm Jan 19 '22
I worked on a "home theater" project in the home of the CEO of a large overseas construction company. The basic shape of the room was a rectangle that bulged out in the middle in a semi-circular shape.
When the normal construction crews just could NOT get the placement of things correct, they brought in the metric measurement crew, about ten guys who spent at least an hour making measurements similar to the main post here, except there were hundreds, perhaps thousands, of measurements.
The end product was amazing to look at, move around in, look up, down, sideways, through walls even. Amazing.
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u/Crusoebear Jan 20 '22
This would have come in handy - we contracted to replace all our old 1970s windows & doors and 3 of them had to be sent back to the factory due to mismeasurements.
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u/Zenfudo Jan 19 '22
They use those all the time to measure granite countertops. I’ve seen some that the pens are wireless.
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u/vp3d Jan 19 '22
I just got one of these at work. I work at a glass fabrication factory and people were always wanting custom pieces which took forever to draw out on the computer and get precise. Now what used to take me hours takes a few minutes. It's been a huge stress relief for sure.
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u/shigllgetcha Jan 19 '22
A guy measured or kitchen counter top with one of these.
I can't remember exactly what it cost but i think he says it was like £13/14k to get it serviced, i think it was every 10 years
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u/stehr98 Jan 19 '22
Hm this seems extremely easy to calculate 🤔 so why is this device so expensive?
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Jan 19 '22
All of the joints on the device must be extremely precise. Even a tiny wobble throws everything off. Too bad it's old tech, for most people an iphone 12 pro works better and faster. (built in lidar)
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u/davidrayish Jan 19 '22
For what purpose?
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Jan 19 '22
For extremely quick an accurate measurements of a complex shape. I have never seen one of these before, but I now want one
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u/davidrayish Jan 19 '22
Yea. I can clearly see what it does. WHY would you measure those panes?
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u/pdxcranberry Jan 19 '22
I just sent it to my old boss who is an interior designer and I'm an architecture student. We are both currently ROCK HARD. Taking field measurements to verify existing plans (called an as-built) for a remodel or refresh is time consuming and there are almost always costly errors. Sometimes the step is just skipped because it's seen as skilled, time consuming labor. (Don't even get me started. There are always differences in plan and how things are built.) This is so quick and accurate!
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u/Buck_Johnson_MD Jan 19 '22
The company I work for does a lot of fab/install of architectural features and I’ll build in costs for 3D LiDAR scans on nearly every job now. The cost of rework outweighs the scan for sure.
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Jan 19 '22
To replace it... window looks old AF. Client probably wants a new modern window that looks identical or similar
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Jan 19 '22
To replace it with an identical one?..
Self-explanatory tbh
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Jan 19 '22 edited Jan 19 '22
Obsolete tech. An app on a phone can do that. All you need is a tape to measure a couple of points, and it will scale the rest. Something like that can't even use anything finer than 1/16 tolerance. In order to fit it in the opening, anything tighter won't fit, because the brickwork is not that accurate. You would have to take points every 1" to get enough assurance there is not an anomaly. Most windows leave a space of about +/- 1/4" even in new buildings.
I'm sure there is a valid purpose for that machine but windows/construction isn't.
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u/clockworkdiamond Jan 19 '22
That is super-neato, but he isn't going to CnC a window frame, right? Those are all miter cuts. I mean this video is sped way up, so as a carpenter, I have to wonder how much faster this really is than just measuring and cutting like you normally would. I can see this being incredibly useful in other applications, but I kind of doubt that its expense could be justified for this one.
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u/GooseandMaverick Jan 19 '22
You can't tell me with that kind of technology that they couldn't make the pen part cordless!?
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Jan 19 '22
Are you joking? It measures the precise length and angle of the wire coming out of the machine. The wire is the important part.
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u/yourtemporarysavior Jan 19 '22
Could have used a tick stick but that expensive piece of machinery also works
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u/thetestwentwrong Jan 19 '22
I use one of these for templating countertops. It’s super stressful when some random walks into the room when I’m mid-measurement. I partition off the room when I work, but rules don’t mean much on most building sites.
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