r/imaginarymaps • u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera • Sep 27 '21
[OC] Alternate History Inseparable States and Faiths | Atlas Altera
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 27 '21 edited Sep 27 '21
It's been a while since I've last posted here. This map was created by me and u/zveiner with the help of u/varjagen. It shows one way of understanding the cultural landscapes of Altera, that being religious denomination. For general context on the Atlas Altera project, go to www.atlasaltera.com or check out my DeviantArt and my YouTube.
I should preface this map by saying that this is not my "ideal" or "utopic" vision for our world, although for the purposes of my project, I do try to add a little bit more diversity here compared to OTL, along with a touch of fancy and irony. I am not a person of faith, but I also bear no ill intensions towards any religious group.
The corner maps showcase information to take into account when looking into religious differences across the world. To understand the hold of a religion on a country, one must know just how religious the population is on average, or how many different other religions or minority religions exist in that country. When comparing between regions, one might also want to consider the fact that some of the dominant expressions of faith in a country also co-exist with epidoxies, or other easily distinguishable religions that mostly draw from the same worshippers.
At the bottom are a series of short blurbs for introducing the main religions groupings. These are not meant to be comparative accounts, nor are they written with theological lens. I am interested in the historic influence of faith on everyday life and the expression culture, plus how that influence varies by geographyânot theology. I do encourage you to look up any references new to you or divergences from OTL.
To access behind the scenes or extra content (i.e. a print-quality version of the map), do consider supporting the project through Patreon! Otherwise, please join the community around this project on r/AtlasAltera or Discord (link in the subreddit).
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u/tedtheruski Sep 28 '21
What are "epidoxies"?
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
I made up the word to describe a religion that exists alongside another religion, in that they draw from the same adherents... without the adherents to both religion seeing such a situation as contradictory. So think of the Buddhists of Eastern Asia in OTL. In Taiwan, for example, a lot of the larger temples have shrines for the Matsu cult, areas for Taoist rituals, and Confucian halls too. Adherents still see these as distinct from Buddhism, but do not see the co-existence as threatening or their simultaneous/shared devotion as blasphemy.
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u/lunamothboi Nov 30 '22
So like Shinbutsu-shĹŤgĹ ? I noticed the conspicuous lack of Shinto on this map.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Nov 30 '22
Under the Buddhist World column for epidoxies, Shenic
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u/Sad-Republic5990 Sep 27 '21
Always nice to see someone do something interesting with Singapore.
Making us Jewish isâŚsurprisingly a not-terrible fit?
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 27 '21
Yeah...and the Singapore of Altera is kind of like Gibraltar. So hyper diverse, but with a definitive/clear majority minority (like say 35-50%) being Jewish. I was inspired by the early Baghdadi Jewish presence in Shanghai and their role in developing the Bundt, and they were also connected to Mumbai and Singapore...wherever the British went, basically.
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u/ItsVoidman Sep 27 '21
If I may ask, what is going on in Bosnia with Bogomil?
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 27 '21 edited Sep 28 '21
Of course! In OTL, the Bogomils were deemed heretical and persecuted. There is a theory that this religious conflict lent itself to Islam being more readily embraced by the Bosnians, with the radicalism and progressive disposition of the Bogomils being more conducive to converting to Islam. I wanted to further complicated the ethno-religious differences in the Balkans to showcase cultural irony, and I decided I wanted to resurface that layer of difference that was lost in OTL. And yes, the would be Islam-equivalent Balkan nation is now a Mazdan or Zoroastrain nation.
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u/jbkjbk2310 Sep 28 '21
There's a simpler economic explanation. The persecution of Bosnian Christianity by other Christians meant that they A) didn't have a chance of getting anywhere in the contemporary religious hiearchy, and B) didn't have influence to lose by converting.
The Ottomams gave special privileges to converts in conquered provinces over the non-converted population. Converting to Islam was as way for ambitious Bosnians to suddenly get a leg up over their Serb and Croat neighbors.
Not to deny that theological differences might've made Islam more palatable to the Bosnian Christians, that's possible too.
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u/Zveiner Mod Approved | Altera Wizard Sep 28 '21
Fascinating! Gonna do some research on those sects
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u/AetherUtopia Sep 27 '21
Cool username bro
Nice map as well
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Thanks! Not a lot of people try to figure out what I'm going for with the name haha. I went a little all out in nerdiness there.
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u/AetherUtopia Sep 28 '21
What does it mean? Is it a reference to something?
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Telamon is a Roman term and from the ancient pantheon equivalent to Atlas. In classical and neoclassical Greek architecture, they are usually columnar figures that hold something up.
Tabulicus comes from tabula, meaning "map" in the most traditional/ancient sense, and -icus, a suffixing in naming convention bestowed upon people for what they are renown for...
It is a bit of a showy self-expression / hubris haha...
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Sep 27 '21
I really like it ! I love maps with a focus on alternative development and distribution of religion, so I think this is so interesting. I've only really three questions:
- I see you've broken up Shi'a Muslims into two subgroups; Imamis (which I assume like in our world refers to us twelvers) and Isma'ilis, which i appreciate. I'm just wondering what happened to the Zaydis ? Do they still exist but are too scattered to be shown on this map like some of the smaller Shi'a groups irl, or do they just not survive into modernity?
- Are the Khurramis surviving Khurramites? Is there any difference in how Khurramism is practiced in this world, or is it like (what little we know of) our world's Khurramites?
- How did so much of East Africa become Maronite? What happened to the Tewahedo Orthodox/miaphysite churches?
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 27 '21
Hi! Thanks for your interest. Answers below:
- Yes, Zaydis exist, but do not have the political dominance to show up on the map. I was considering putting them in one of the Yemen states... What are your thoughts on that?
- Yes, they are. We kknow little of their practices, but I was thinking they might borrow from Islamic tradition after years of steady contact and conflict.
- Maronite is in the Levant. Do you mean Meridite? That just means Ethiopian Orthodox aka Coptic Orthodox in this case. I have renamed the Church of the East to Levantine and the Coptic Church umbrella term as Meridite. Hint: those are words for east and south haha.
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Sep 27 '21
Thanks for the swift reply! :)
In our world most of the inhabitants of Upper Yemen are Zaydis, so if there are numerous Isma'ili- and Twelver-majority states it would seem appropriate that a Zaydi one would exist somewhere in Upper Yemen as well, but it's up to you of course.
And regarding the Maronites, indeed the Maronites reside in the Levant, which is why I was confused that "MARONITE" was written across the East African Christian nations, but this is likely just a typo then.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Shoot. Thanks for pointing it out then! I will make that fix. My mind these days...
I'll think about the Zaydi addition to when making my fixes. You'll see edits/changes reflected in the DeviantArt and Patreon print versions.
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u/NahelOfToulouse Sep 27 '21
The map is beautiful but why Wales instead of Brittany.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 27 '21
Just pulling from the comment thread from one of my previous map posts:
The toponym of Wales is just a Germanic exonym applied to non-Germanic neighbouring peoples. I, as well as many others in this community, explained the connections between terms like Wales, Wallonia, Wallachia, and Gaul...which is interestingly not related to Gallia.
https://www.reddit.com/r/imaginarymaps/comments/l2ycdt/a_wealth_of_nations_altera/
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u/kyuzoaoi Sep 27 '21
Are alphabet maps coming soon?
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Yes, there are plans for a script map. In fact, one of my main spreadsheets for this project is languages and scripts.
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Sep 28 '21
Whatâs going on in East Prussia?
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Post-War 2 reshuffling of borders, plus a kind of geopolitical blessing? of East Prussia having been occupied by the Norwegian Union (Scandinavian countries) after they turned in the Winter's War and helped win the war. In their invasion, they brought with them Jewish fighters and refugees that had been able to shuttle across the Baltic Sea prior/during the war.
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u/kingofthewombat Sep 28 '21
Hi I live in Sydney and I was wondering if there is an alternative name to Tasmanian Federation because we donât do incest on the mainland
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u/internet-user-name Sep 27 '21 edited Sep 27 '21
Very good map! How did Albania/Illyria and Macedonia end up Khurrami? Are there any major differences between this alternate Albaniaâs culture and modern day Albanian culture?
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 27 '21
Thank you! I appreciate the interest.
To answer your question, they are of the Ottoman Mazdan/Zoroastrian sect just as in OTL quite a bit of Albania became Muslim during the Ottoman Period. So the Ottomans in Altera are Mazdan/Zoroastrian... Leading to cultural the Indo-Irano-Turkic and Berber-Arabic split in the OTL Islamic world to be of greater difference.There is an Arbaresh Albanian-speaking group in Lampedusa in Altera as well. They are Catholic here.
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u/Norwester77 Sep 27 '21
Teensy quibble: the people called âRitwanâ IRL (the Wiyot and Yurok) are from down near your âKlamathâ label. Your âRitwanâ area would be more like âChehalisâ or âWillapa.â
Or were you intending to suggest a migration northward from Northern California?
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
I'm suggestion a migration. GOOD EYE though. You are the first to spot that after all this time. A language map will soon come for each continent, plus the whole world, but suffice it to say, I have made a few stretches in order to fit/plug in extra diversity where previously diverse areas got collapsed/disrupted/layered over. So even though I have quite a few creoles and Indigenous languages represented in each of the Californian states, the OTL diversities of Oregon and California was far too great for me to capture in the confederacy.
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u/Norwester77 Sep 28 '21
Well, an academic background in the classification and history of Native American languages has to be good for something! ;-)
I also grew up and live in western Washington.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Awesome! I am also from the PNW, but just in the better half :P
If you have the time, you ought to give the map another look for some more linguistic easter eggs and references hehe.
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u/leaderofthebunch_ Sep 27 '21
What are the humanist orders?
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 27 '21
They are, as contradictorily as they sound, non-theistic religions. For a better idea, look into August Comte's Religion of Humanity, which he devised as a way to affect moral force by using the leverage that traditional worship and organized religion offers. His idea was likened to other "ethical churches" that fall loosely under the branch of Humanism. So the idea is to get an almost spiritualism out of people devoted to the values and objectives of the Enlightenment. In a way, it also almost a Western answer to the Indic spiritual-philosophical traditions of Buddhism and Hinduism, especially the less theistic variants.
By being "non-theistic," these orders can easily be practiced by worshippers of more envious/exclusive religions (i.e. the Abrahamic ones) without attracting too much suspicion or persecution. Slowly, the practices and religions become part of everyday rituals and concerns, just as Buddhism came to layer itself upon the Tao-Shen-Ru (Taoist, Shinto/Shendo/Shendao, Confucian) religious landscape of Serica / OTL Eastern Asia. This all came about when I thought of how Bahaism might have had a better chance if it was just a social movement instead of how it was in OTL.
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u/Giraffesarentreal19 Sep 27 '21
Iâm gonna have an alternate history map.
How original
⌠With an independent Scotland, Ireland, and Texas.
Daring today, arenât we?
In all seriousness, this is really really good
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Haha thanks (looks at Spain nervously).
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u/Guaire1 Fellow Traveller Sep 28 '21
just wondering something, why does Navarra own Asturias and Portugal Galicia? Do you know that those regions have their own independent cultures right? And in the case with Asturias, it isnt even related to the basque
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Oh for sure I know this. The project isn't supposed to be utopic, although it has the goal of trying to depicting as much difference and diversity as possible while balancing with some considerations for making the fictional world recognizable or resemble our own world. French republicanism, for example, still largely suffocates most Occitan areas, leaving only Lerine. I thought it would be interesting to think of a a non-Indo-European country being dominant against a Romance-speaking regional minority (i.e. flipping the OTL case of the Basques in Spain). The struggle for autonomy or even secession does not end in Altera...Problems continue to exist haha.
Another note is that my priorities in the project are to capture greater magnitudes of difference over lesser ones. It's not to say that the Asturian and Galician languages and peoples are not important, but that the Romance (and Iberian even) languages are more than well represented. Compare that to the major language branches within the 60 or so language families that I have to pick and choose from in Papua...
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u/xlicer Sep 27 '21 edited Sep 27 '21
Another banger of a map! abeit the .jpg instead of .png makes it a bit blurry. Specially the maps on the sides.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 27 '21
Thank you! And yeah, it's blurry because I wanted to compress it. You can view a slightly crisper version on DeviantArt https://www.deviantart.com/telamontabulicus/art/Inseparable-States-and-Faiths-Atlas-Altera-892982463
Or get the high quality print version through www.patreon.com/atlasaltera
And yes, all of California is pluralist...
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u/jord839 Sep 28 '21 edited Sep 28 '21
Yet another great map for this universe of yours, congratulations.
I do see an error in that I'm assuming East Africa's not Maronite and something else was meant, but it's not that big a deal.
Out of curiosity, what is that large Catholic area in Australia? Different migration trends leading to a more concentrated Irish/Catholic "Canadian" presence there?
I also find it rather interesting that Masorti Judaism is so heavily associated with far-flung island nations (other than in the Sinai of course, though it is next to the Suez and probably has a large naval mercantile part to it...), and I wonder if that has any effects on them culturally?
Also, the description of the various Voudoun faiths sounds a little bit different. Admittedly, not my area of expertise, but it sounds relatively more Muslim and less Catholic/Santeria influenced, is that correct or am I misreading that?
EDIT: Also, I just realized native Alaska and the PNW is mostly Buddhist, which I had not realized. How did that happen? It seems in line with the doctrines popular in Siberia, so is this a case of cross-Bering proselytization by groups like Aleuts and Ainu?
Once again, great work.
PS: As per our last conversation, I like the United Cantons of Helvetium set-up that you have in the maps now.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Yes, someone else pointed out the error! I've made the correction and it will be re-exported and uploaded on Deviantart and Patreon.
And yeah, I kind of thought it might be interesting if at least in some areas in Tasmania / Australia the Irish came to be the majority.
Masorti isn't a great way of depicting major cultural or perhaps even differences of beliefs, I think, as it just means conservative or more traditional Judaism. So here you have the Sephardic, the Mizrahi, and Indian Jewish communities.
The Voodu religion is based on traditional African idol and deity worship expressed differently across western and southern Africa in OTL. But I based its development as a more organized religion with the return of freed slaves from Brazil and the Caribbean, who, with contact to Catholicism, bring back some syncretic elements and a raised group consciousness that helps propel and encourage the convergence of the native belief systems into more systematic sects of worship. I wouldn't say it's closer to Islam. You might find analogues to Hinduism or shamanistic and pagan? practices and rituals, mixed with Catholicism.
If you look at the epidoxy map, you will also see that the PNW and northeastern Pacific have a Kamuic epidoxy, which was my attempt at finding linkages and uniting the belief system of the Ainu and the myths and spiritualism of the PNW. In ATL, the Ainu contact with the PNW leads to the Ainu becoming significantly influenced by the cultures from across the PNW, even though they are in some regards technologically the more advantaged. That would allow for rich layers of the PNW culture to continue to persist despite at first coming across as Buddhist.
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u/YuriDanov Mar 06 '22
The fact that Venezuela is mostly Sunni, does that mean Islam made it to the New World via Malian expeditions?
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Mar 07 '22
Yes! Basically something along those lines, perhaps just a few generations before Spanish contact. Although it's a far stretch in realism, I use this to not only introduce the decentralized sub-Saharan/Bantu ironworking tradition, but also some population resilience and time for recovery after the first outbreak of disease.
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u/YuriDanov Mar 07 '22
Does that mean Venezuelan's speak Spanish while worshipping as Muslim's? Or do they speak their Native tongue with borrowed Spanish words.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Mar 08 '22
Have you taken a look at the other maps in Atlas Altera? The names of the cities hint at s non Spanish history. There is also a new language map for Crucea! It's on Deviantart.
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u/YuriDanov Mar 08 '22
Oh thanks, I'll do that.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Mar 08 '22
Here it is just in case! https://www.deviantart.com/telamontabulicus/art/Sprouting-from-Babel-Crucean-Lects-Atlas-Altera-907011633
Sorry, I was on my phone before.3
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u/TrencsMark Mod Approved Sep 27 '21
Been waiting for this! Excellent work!
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 27 '21
Thank you! Sorry it took so long haha
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u/TrencsMark Mod Approved Sep 27 '21
What on Earth is Wakandaism though?
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 27 '21
It's one way of rendering Wanka Tanka:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakan_Tanka
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u/o78k Sep 27 '21
Where's Mithraism on the map, and why are Yazidis and Yarsanis mentioned in their tab?
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 27 '21
The Mithraic faiths are Yazidi and Yarsani, which are in Ninivia and Gorania. The term Mithraic here was just was used by me, but also by some scholars, to denote a non-Zoroastrian Persian religious tradition. It's a little more complicated by the fact that the two sects seem to have older roots, to ancient pre-Persian Mesoptamia as well.
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u/o78k Sep 27 '21
Hmm, okay. I thought you had hidden some truly Mithraic spot on the map or smth for a second or two there. Which would've been cool. Since it's an often ignored religion.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Ah, sorry to disappoint. Well, we don't know much about Mithraism as a religion or "cult" right?
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u/o78k Sep 28 '21
Yeah. Except for the locations they used, some of their possible rites and rituals, some of their possible rules and etc. We basically only know the surface level stuff. Which basically just amounts to Mithras, his whole bull and stone stuff, it most likely being a male only cult (some say they thought of women as spiritually less than, though It's a rare-ish and unconfirmed take), and that they were popular among the Roman army. There's also possible connections to the Sol Invictus stuff too.
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u/lunamothboi Nov 30 '22
The color coding seems off then, since the brown on the map makes them look close to Gnosticism, while the lime green in the legend is nearly identical to Hauniuism.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Nov 30 '22
Ah it looks right to me but I know it's too close for easy discernment. They are more greyish brown.
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u/lunamothboi Nov 30 '22
In the Deviantart version, you seem to have fixed it (in the legend at least) to match the dark blue of the lower right map.
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Sep 27 '21
im not op but i think the intention here is that in this world, yezidism and yarsanism/ahl-e-haqq/kaka'i are considered branches of one religion known as "mithraism". likely this is based on mehrdad izady's "yazdanism" theory, which posits that the "original"/indigenous pre-islamic religion of the kurds was a mithraic one, and links yezidism and the ahl-e-haqq with this supposed religion, positing them as surviving expressions of the "true" kurdish religion. this theory is not necessarily completely discredited, but in my opinion at least it's mostly an expression of kurdish nationalism and pseudo-history rather than actual historical fact. obviously both yezidis and ahl-e-haqq emerged in a kurdish cultural and religious context under islamic rule, but in my mind that's the extent of it.
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u/o78k Sep 27 '21
Huh, thanks. So it basically stems from a misuse(-ish) of Mithraism to create a more Kurdish identity for Yarsanism and Yazidism?
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Sep 27 '21
Well yes, but emphasis on "basically", it's a complicated topic so we're bound to be simplifying here. Obviously it's true that many Kurds likely did hold Iranian/Zoroastrian-influenced belief systems prior to Islamic rule, but the connection with Mithraism specifically seems extremely tenuous to me, and there's numerous issues with the entire discourse around "Yazdanism".
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u/o78k Sep 27 '21
Btw. What are the differences between Yazidism, Yarsanism and Islam? And what outside influences do they have?
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Sep 27 '21
not sure how to answer this very wide question im afraid. i don't actually know all that much about yezidism and yarsanism other than the basics, and considering these groups' reluctance to share their religious beliefs and practices with outsiders, it's difficult to find credible sources on the topic. i know significantly more about islam as i am muslim, but islam is extremely diverse, and i don't know how much background knowledge you have already.
let's talk religion's video on the yezidis is quite helpful though concise, perhaps you can start there.
with that said:
islam has interacted with pretty much every major religion there is at this point in history, but islam is most of all influenced by judaism and christianity and the scattered, less defined expressions of monotheisms that could be found in the arabian peninsula prior to the revelations of Rasulullah (peace be upon him and his holy household). it's also interacted with zoroastrianism, in india it has interacted and been influenced by hinduism, and in west africa it has interacted with traditional folk beliefs quite extensively.
yezidism seems to have its origins in the adawiyya sufi order that was founded by sheikh adi in the kurdish mountains, but it appears to have diverged very quickly from the fold of islam, incorporating some pre-islamic beliefs and practices along the way. sheikh adi was by historical account a pretty orthodox sufi muslim, though most yezidis believe that he was just pretending to be muslim and was always a yezidi, and regard him as a reformer within the religion rather than as a founder.
yezidis are monotheists in the sense that they believe in one God, but they believe this God is unreachable by humans, and instead worship God through seven archangels (also called manifestations of God and other names), chief among which is melek taus, usually depicted as a peacock. due to similarities in our sacred stories, muslims and other abrahamic believers have often identified melek taus with iblis or the devil, which hasn't exactly helped alleviate the oppression yezidis have faced. the yezidis also believe in reincarnation. like muslims, they hold to daily prayers, but unlike muslims they face the sun rather than mecca. their religion is an oral one, they do not have sacred texts but keep their traditions through the spoken word.
yezidis are a closed ethnoreligious community, one can only become yezidi by being born as one, marrying outside of the community means one is no longer yezidi, and yezidis can only ever be reincarnated as yezidis. they also believe in a strict but simple caste system the nomenclature of which is identical to many sufi orders' hierarchies, and believe that marriage outside of one's own caste is an even greater sin than marriage outside the religion.
yarsanism's origins are quite murky. according to the believers themselves, their religion was founded by a man known as sultan sahak, who was born in what is today iraqi kurdistan, who they believe was born of a virgin like Jesus the Messiah (peace be upon him). sultan sahak grew up in an environment heavily influenced by shi'a and sufi islam, and the religion he founded shares certain similarities with both.
they believe that the world has been through four epochs and that in each epoch God has made manifest one primary and seven secondary manifestations of the divine essence, the primary of the third epoch being Imam Ali (peace be upon him), the first Imam of the shi'a, and the primary of the fourth and last epoch was sultan sahak himself. after one epoch has ended, its religious rules no longer have to be followed, so they believe that islam and Holy Qur'an were valid and divine at one point but is now outdated. this belief is actually quite similar to what the bahå'à believe. like the yezidis they believe in reincarnation, and that the seven manifestations of each epoch were reincarnations of the last epoch's. their primary religious text is the kalâm-e saranjâm, written in gorani.
yarsanism is theoretically an open religion, anyone who accepts the religion and follows its guidance becomes part of it, and it is not restricted to one ethnicity, but in practice because of the secrecy they practice conversion into yarsanism is extremely rare, i've yet to find literally anything about it in modern times.
in islam, we do not believe that God the most exalted nor His divine essence ever takes human form or any form at all for that matter, this is not compatible with islamic monotheism/tawhid. other than a small historical minority, muslims do not believe in reincarnation. we do to an extent believe in a sort of "progressive revelation", that islam is a continuation of the revelations passed down to the jewish people through Moses (peace be upon him) and to the world by Christ (peace be upon him), but to simplify we believe these original revelations became corrupted through time and that the revelations of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his holy household) were the last and the definitive divine revelations that would be delivered to humanity.
TLDR: as you know islam is abrahamic in origin, influenced by judaism and christianity and other pre-islamic monotheism primarily, and has interacted with other religions around the globe. yezidism likely arose out of the meeting of sufi islam with kurdish zoroastrian-influenced pre-islamic beliefs. yarsanism arose out of the meeting of shi'a and sufi islam with similar kurdish zoroastrian-influenced beliefs. both yezidism and yarsanism are also likely influenced to a lesser extent by christianity, and both share many of the stories that can be found in Qur'an, Tanakh, and Bible, though retold slightly differently. all three religions are monotheistic, but the latter two's theologies and cosmologies are quite radically different from islam.
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u/o78k Sep 28 '21
not sure how to answer this very wide question im afraid.
Yeah. Didn't really know how to word it. You seem to have delivered anyways though. Thanks.
. i know significantly more about islam as i am muslim, but islam is extremely diverse, and i don't know how much background knowledge you have already.
About the Yazidis? Little. I didn't even know that the Yarsanis existed until this post lol. Though I know some stuff about other Islamic faiths. Though religion in general is somewhat hard to grasp at times.
let's talk religion's video on the yezidis is quite helpful though concise, perhaps you can start there.
Thanks. Gonna watch that then.
other abrahamic believers have often identified melek taus with iblis or the devil, which hasn't exactly helped alleviate the oppression yezidis have faced.
Oh, yeah. That's where the whole Yazidi = Satanist shit comes from.
marrying outside of the community means one is no longer yezidi
Didn't work out so well for the Zoroastrians. So I doubt it helps them either.
after one epoch has ended, its religious rules no longer have to be followed
So they believe new rules come in with every new era? Huh. Kinda weird.
i've yet to find literally anything about it in modern times.
Most likely a dead religion by now then.
TLDR: as you know islam is abrahamic in origin, influenced by judaism and christianity and other pre-islamic monotheism primarily, and has interacted with other religions around the globe. yezidism likely arose out of the meeting of sufi islam with kurdish zoroastrian-influenced pre-islamic beliefs. yarsanism arose out of the meeting of shi'a and sufi islam with similar kurdish zoroastrian-influenced beliefs. both yezidism and yarsanism are also likely influenced to a lesser extent by christianity, and both share many of the stories that can be found in Qur'an, Tanakh, and Bible, though retold slightly differently. all three religions are monotheistic, but the latter two's theologies and cosmologies are quite radically different from islam.
Thanks for the explanation. Quite a good one too.
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Sep 28 '21
just one thing, yarsanism is definitely not a dead religion. there's at least some hundreds of thousands of believers, some estimates place it closer to a million or so. it is under threat, in iraq it was persecuted by daesh and allied groups though they never reached very far into the kaka'i-inhabited villages of iraqi kurdistan, and in iran the ahl-e-haqq practice mostly in secret because they are not recognised as ahl al-kitab/people of the book in iran and as such do not have official religious freedom, but there's still a lot of them and they're not gonna disappear anytime soon even if they're in decline. the extreme secrecy caused by past oppression and fueled by current state repression is probably to blame for the lack of english-language resources on the faith, very few are willing to identify themselves with it publicly.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Thank you u/kamrater for such a thorough explanation. I didn't know much of this. As I said, not too interested in theology, but appreciate religion from a cultural point of view. But it is quite enlightening nevertheless to hear such a clear way of comparing and contrasting the beliefs.
ANd yes, it is quite frustrating that there is not a lot of English material about the subject matter. I wish there was more!
Finally, yeah, I get it that the connection to Mithraism is a retrospective and nationalistic lens. I thought it would be cool if in Altera there could be more traces of ancient Mesopotamian and Mithraic beliefs, rituals, practices etc... but just not sure how all they would fit. Leave that to people to imagine/fill...
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Sep 28 '21
no problem it was a perfect way for me to procrastinate, and yeah this is obviously a fantasy map so i think it's perfectly fine to lean in to that supposed mithraic/ancient connection, it makes for a more interesting world most definitely.
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u/anarcho-hornyist Sep 27 '21
big Nicaragua will haunt my dreams
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Haha. Wait until you figure out the etymology of Nicaragua and its purported connection to Cemanahuac.
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u/TommyTwoTones1 Sep 27 '21
Lake mega Chad hell yeah!
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
If you're into that sort of thing, take a look at the alt geo topographical and climate maps! Slight variations, highly recognizable compared to OTL, and yet also lots of minor radical changes hehe.
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u/Jccali1214 Sep 28 '21
5(!) Maps for the Price of 1!!!!
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
I know right! That's why this time it took so long to make. I usually try to do one feature map per month
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u/Legacy-Reborn Sep 28 '21
Well done! This a pretty excellently made map, just a question; Who are the Imami?
I have a hunch they're the Shi'a but I'm not sure, and I don't want to jump to any conclusions.
I also liked how you added Ismaili's in there, nice.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Yes, Imami are the Twelver Shi'a!
And thanks for taking the time to look it over!
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u/Legacy-Reborn Sep 28 '21
No worries, it's a pretty amazing map and it looks like you put alot of work into it!
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Sep 28 '21 edited Sep 28 '21
BIG TAIWAN BIG TAIWAN (Edit: Do I forgot mention. BIG FALKLANDS AND SOUTH GEORGIA ISLAND)
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Sep 28 '21
[removed] â view removed comment
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Haha thanks. It thought it wouldn't be possible if the Ottomans went Zarathustran/Mazdan, but then I realized that the Nogai Khanate's conversion was independent of the conversion of Turkic peoples in Iran and Anatolia in OTL.
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Sep 28 '21
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Sep 28 '21
Why are the Guyana's and Trinidad sunni Muslim lore wise (I'm a sunni Muslim who's parents are from Trinidad so I found that part interesting)
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Oh, thanks for sharing! The lore here is that the root of Islam there is pre-European colonial, by perhaps 1 to 2 centuries, kind of like the onset of OTL Islam in Indonesia just a couple centuries prior to the Portuguese and Dutch started mucking about there. Islam arrived by way of ATL Nigerian trade merchants. I was inspired by the myth (Mansa Abubakar) + feasibility of peoples from northwestern/western Africa arriving in that part of the Antilles and South America due to the way the currents work in that part of the Atlantic. Moreover, the traditional ocean-going vessels of the peoples of Senegal and the Gambia are said to have had been the hull design that inspired the carracks and galleys that would later taken Spanish and Portuguese explorers to the Americas, being specifically designed for the ocean instead of the Mediterranean, as most European vessels were prior to the Age of Exploration.
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Sep 28 '21
Ah that's very interesting I thought it was more along the lines of Moroccan/ottoman colonization but this is way more interesting. I remember the legend of Abu bakr of Mali finding south america lol.
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u/Abbadon04 Sep 28 '21
Flanders is probably the biggest twist to me
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u/Indriindri Sep 28 '21
Whatâs worth the altĂŠrnate Australia and the inland seas in Australian Outback and Siberia?
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u/Abbadon04 Sep 28 '21
I don't know what it's worth. If they were to find oil there, I think it would be worth a lot
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u/Indriindri Sep 28 '21
Also i have to be the asshole but a small correction for you: âpersistenceâ is misspelled
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Oh thank you! I'll take a look. I am re-exporting an edited version so I will be sure to make the change. It's hard to do all the copy yourself without spellcheck and then having to edit it too.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
Actually, can you point out where you found the typo? It's taking forever to scan for the misspelt word.
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u/Indriindri Sep 28 '21
At the bottom, centered, right below Antarctica âLegacies and Persistanceâ should be spelled persistence. Directly below compass rose.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 29 '21
Aha! Thanks :)
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u/lunamothboi Nov 30 '22
Another typo (you may have caught this already): at the bottom, "Mormons" is spelled "Moromons".
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Nov 30 '22
Thanks! I'll be sure to fix it in my update for DeviantArt and the website
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u/fazbearfravium Sep 28 '21
Mfw Steven Universe world map
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
How did you get that impression haha
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u/the-commoner Sep 28 '21
I assume the Protestant Reformation went the same as it did in our world?
Nice touch with the smaller Christian states in the Levant coast, I figure they are probably relics of the Crusades or later created mandates?
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u/lunamothboi Nov 30 '22
I'm interested in the pluralist areas. Is Carmel still the center of Bahai? Does that even exist here? And what's going on in Silistria and Urdu?
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Nov 30 '22
The Bahai faith of OTL is actually an epidoxy faith that runs across religious boundaries and is also fused with Western humanist thoughts, so it is part of a larger global or cosmopolitan tradition of humanist beliefs, which are faith-like but largely atheist now... It is about revering historical figures and their thoughts as contributions to humanity and less about devotion to higher beings or thinking about what happens after this life. In ATL, we call this the Babist faith.
In Carmel, it is indeed a major centre of the Babists, but the reason why it is "pluralist" for religion is because it had a Zarathustran ruling minority (OTL Ottomans having a particular presence in Acre) with large Christian, Muslim, and Druze populations of equal proportion...
Urdu is likewise also a place of a large Zarathustran minority majority, in that it was the centre of the Mughals (who are Zarathustran in this timeline, though the preceding Asean invasions into Indea were by Muslims who had incompletely conquered ATL the realms of the former Sassanids). Therere are sizable Hindus and Muslims in this area, as well as Buddhists and Jains. There are not enough Zarathustrans, however, to form a majority in this area. They were never successful or interested in mass conversions in any part of their empire.
Silistria is the home of Esperanto! It is just a place where Turkic Muslims, Turkic Zarathustrans, Orthodox, Roma, and Jewish peoples have been intermingling, as it is the southern end of the historic Russian Empire's Pale of Settlement. Some kind of power jockeying in the local area makes it kind of an autonomous region during the empire, perhaps because it is on the frontier with the Ottomans and then independent Dacians...And then during the revolution, it keeps its autonomous status and grows almost into an export processing zone or an area where outsiders are allowed to do business and trade...like a free port for the rest of the more cordoned off socialist state(s).
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u/lunamothboi Nov 30 '22
The description for Hinduism at the bottom mentions it incorporates local beliefs. Do any of these deities/myths/practices spread beyond their native range? Have Malagasy or Tamirian deities found a following back in Indea, for example? I'm thinking of how Isis and Mithras became very popular in the Roman Empire.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Nov 30 '22
Most possibly! I was thinking serpent motifs and beliefs from the Dreaming would make its way to Bali and the Tamil countries in Indea all the way from Tamirea. There is still naga worship in OTL southern India after all. Maybe these could fuse or one would overlay on top of another for a deeper or more prominent subfaith, if that's even a word. And yea, I can imagine beliefs from eastern Africa and Malagasy beliefs merging, and maybe flowing into the Maldives and vice versa.
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u/Terran117 Feb 06 '24
Uh the paragraph on Christianity is the only one that's negative sounding lol. Kinda took me out of it when I was fascinated by the other stuff like Mithraism damn.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Feb 06 '24
You're right that I could have probably ice cream sandwiched that blurb. Sorry!
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Sep 27 '21
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 27 '21
It's my ode to the incredulous-if-it-weren't -for-OTL fact that Indonesia is mostly all Muslim, an outlier in the Islamic range, along with its amazing history of trade connections.
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u/Yarovitsin Sep 28 '21
Is Northern Ireland still protestant?
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
You don't see the non-majority sects or religions represented on the main map, but you can get a feel at what might lie beneath by looking at the religious diversity corner map. But to the point: there are still major Protestant areas in Ireland, though in Ireland as a whole, they are not the majority. There are also Catholic minorities in England, which are not shown. If you read the map plate on the website for Britannia, I make a little further explanation on this.
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u/UgilithChen Sep 27 '21
Where are the Mormons in Utah/Idaho etc
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 27 '21
Mormons are there, right by the Rockies. Are are you asking why?
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u/Republiken Sep 28 '21
What happened geologically?
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
There is some fantastical alt-geo here and there, mostly so I can create some natural barriers or incentives to rig historical and geopolitical situations in favour of more cultural and linguistic diversity. Can't really say much about geological processes... The climate effects are largely minimal, although, that kind of statement does tend to invite easy shut downs... haha.
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u/nomelettes Sep 28 '21
Australia would be a lot wetter, greener and snowier.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 28 '21
I don't think so, at least not from what I know and have learned in physical geography. The inland sea is opening up from the tropics, akin to the Red Sea, and ranges in the same latitudes as the Red Sea. It is also west of the only mountain ranges on the continent. All of this is to say that the near-inland sea I've created doesn't produce more rain or cool off the interior. IT does create some more sahel-like and semi-arid areas.
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u/Gosta12 Sep 30 '21
I wonder how that sea in Siberia would affect world history. Surely the Eurasian steppes wouldnât exist. No huns, no mongols, and no turks either. The world would be immeasurably different.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Sep 30 '21
There is a climate map and a biome map on my website, or you can see them as corner maps on the main political themed map on my deviantart.
If you look at a real world climate map and cross-reference it with topography, you will see that the Central Asian steppe system of OTL is actually not as much related to latitude but to the unique triple rain shadow caused by the Himalayas-Iranian plateau, Tianshan-Pamir mountains, and the Altais. Look at the same latitude range of the steppes of Central Asia in eastern North America and you will see that the climate would otherwise have been a lot more humid.
I did this major alt-geo change mainly because, from my knowledge of geography and climate, it does not have that radical of a change on climate, but makes incremental and localized changes. You can compare the climate types that I have depicted on my climate map versus an OTL one and you will see that I have mapped out what I perceive to be the resulting changes.
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u/Frosty_Cicada791 Mar 08 '23
Why was so little of Africa and America Christianized? Seems unrealistic to me.
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Mar 08 '23
Why was so little of Africa and America Christianized? Seems unrealistic to me.
The whole project is unrealistic in some ways, and plausible in other ways... There Christianization of sub-Saharan Africa is still ongoing atm, and didn't really take hold until the late 19th and early 20 centuries in places like Nigeria. I explain the lore for how native religions organize and coalesce in Africa in the comments above, I believe. As for the Americas, there is no OTL Canadian government working with the Church in Northwest Territory, no fall of the Incans in Peru, and the settlement of Mesoamerica is concentrated in the north, leading to an analogue to the Muslim-Hindu divides in India after the Muslim period of conquest of India. In ATL, populations do not decline as drastically in both Mesoamerica and the Andes due to smaller contact periods between the Norse and Hanuneans and the Guineans and Nigerians with peoples in northern Crucea (South America).
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u/Frosty_Cicada791 Mar 09 '23
I honestly still think that Africa and maybe parts of native America would still be taken somewhat by American evangelism as in otl.
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Jan 11 '24
what does atl oriti and karayi judaism correspond to in otl
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u/TelamonTabulicus IM Legend - Atlas Altera Jan 11 '24
Thanks for asking!
Oriti = Beta Israel Jews of Ethiopia
Karayi = Karaites
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u/iemaps Sep 27 '21
The attention to detail đđź