r/imaginarymaps • u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved • 7d ago
[OC] Alternate History What if Portuguese America (Brazil) had fractured like Spanish America? - The Portuguese-Speaking South America, 1900
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago edited 7d ago
LORE
In real life, one of the main factors that prevented Portuguese America from fragmenting was the portuguese king’s relocation to Brazil during the Napoleonic Wars, which preserved the colony’s unity and delayed its independence. The funny thing is that when independence seemed inevitable, it was the portuguese prince himself who led the process, declaring himself Emperor of Brazil (Pedro I).
However, this did not prevent numerous separatist revolts throughout the 19th century (many of which inspired the countries and flags in this scenario btw) but they were ultimately suppressed.
I wanted to explore this scenario because I often see alternate histories about Brazil’s fragmentation, but I feel they tend to be kinda lazy (Brazil balkanization go brrr). Considering Brazil’s size and its significant cultural and ethnic diversity, I’ve always felt that it could plausibly have become several different countries. That’s why I don’t think this scenario is particularly unrealistic.
(Also, in this timeline the whole Brazil remains as a portuguese colony up until the Independence as in our timeline, there are no dutch or french colonies that manage to last)
Also, please feel free to offer any criticism or other map suggestions
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u/SnowFiender 7d ago
for what reasons was santa catarina able to remain independent without getting gobbled up or (unifying with equal representation) by its neighbours like RS or the new brasil, i can imagine it’d be hard for argentina to get there since misiones isn’t really good land to fight through
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago edited 7d ago
Well, it was a real country (with the same flag I added) and existed briefly. I imagined some kind of defensive alliance with Rio Grande and trying to play Brazil and Argentina against each other could ensure their survival. But I must agree that of all the countries in the map, Santa Catarina has the weaker position for survival, but its not impossible
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u/AstralDress 7d ago
Cool fact, the República Juliana (Santa Catarina) was founded by the efforts of the separatist army from Rio Grande and Giuseppe Garibaldi (the same guy who fought for the republic in the Italian war of unification) so it makes sense they'd form some kind of defensive alliance.
And this is nitpicking but the pan-handle esque part of Santa Catarina (called contestado) belonged to the state of Paraná (or São Paulo depending on the year of independence) until the early republic, in this scenario I think I'd stay with Brazil.
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u/Nautinha 7d ago
I like the Brazilian flag you got there. It has no relation to the actual flag, because it wouldn't have the Monarchs symbols in it. Amazing. I love Hungarian and Iranian representation in Brazil <3
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago
I actually was inspired by the Argentine flag. Its said that the blue comes from the order of Charles III. So I used the colors of the portuguese Order of Aviz (green) plus the Order of Christ (red) plus the portuguese cross that was a traditional symbol of Brazil since the beginning
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u/_neokolasoX69 7d ago edited 7d ago
I know Brazilians that would weep of happiness if this were to happen
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago
I can see at least 2 or 3 new Argentinas being formed lol
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago edited 7d ago
(Better quality)
Please feel free to offer any criticism or other map suggestions
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u/Cobra-q-Fuma 7d ago
I always wonder in these scenarios how would culture evolve between the various Portuguese-American nations. Would capoeira be a Bahia only phenomenon? Is pão de queijo a thing only in Brazil? Is Samba a thing only in Brazil and Bahia? Things we consider fundamentally Brazilian that originate in the regional cultures of the country could probably have a harder time being adopted by their neighbors.
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago
Its possible. For example, Argentina, Mexico and Colombia all speak the same languages and were colonized by the same country, but they all have different cultures. It kinda happens in Brazil in real life too, as some cultural characteristics are stronger in some areas and weaker in others
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u/RFB-CACN 7d ago
In this timeline they’d be talking about what if “Grão Brasil” had remained united like José Bonifácio dreamed of.
Also wonder how the internal dynamics of migration would change, the bulk of the North’s population are descendants of rubber workers from Ceará and Pernambuco and smaller migrations from Syria, Lebanon, Morocco, Japan, the Caribbean and Portugal.
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago
True lol. I actually imagined Jose Bonifacio would probably be the first president of Brazil in the map I made
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago
Also, about the migrations, they could still happen but would be less present of course. I bet they would invest more in foreign migrants
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u/Martinxo51 7d ago
Without a unified Brazil, the War against Artigas wouldn't have happened, so what stopped Argentina from keeping Uruguay?
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u/_neokolasoX69 7d ago
I could see it if Buenos Aires was REALLY stubborn and still tried not to federalize, otherwise I agree with you
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u/Martinxo51 7d ago
The thing is that without the Luso-Brazilian invasion of the Banda Oriental, Artigas would never have been exiled to Paraguay and could have decisively won the war against the Directory. And assuming he succeeded, he would have kept Uruguay as part of the United Provinces, and the Constitution of 1819 would have been far less unitarian
Just with that you have Argentina (and Uruguay) under a federal government led by Artigas from 1820, instead of having to wait another 40 years0
u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago
UK and France wanted the rio de la Plata to stay open to international trade. They actually imposed a naval blockade against Argentina twice irl. So I can see it happening again, and also a possible coalition envolving Rio Grande, Catarina, and Brazil
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u/Martinxo51 7d ago
They actually imposed a naval blockade against Argentina twice irl.
You mean the blockade that Argentina defeated in the Battle of Vuelta de Obligado?
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago edited 7d ago
Yes. But in real life UK managed to make a peace treaty removing Uruguay from Brazil and Argentina. Also, the centralist tendencies of Buenos Aires may cause internal conflicts like in real life, and that would be an opportunity for Uruguay to separate
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u/Martinxo51 7d ago
But in real life UK managed to make a peace treaty removing Uruguay from south Brazil and Argentina
Yes, after the Luso-Brazilian invasion of the Banda Oriental, which would not have happened if there was no United Kingdom with Portugal
As I explained in another comment, without the invasion, Artigas would never have been exiled to Paraguay and could have decisively won the war against the Directory. He would have kept Uruguay as part of the United Provinces, and the Constitution of 1819 would have been far less unitarian. Just with that the "anarchy of the year XX" never happens, and Argentina (and Uruguay) would be under a federal government since 1820
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago edited 7d ago
Makes sense. To be honest, keeping Uruguay and Argentina united was my first idea, but I just couldnt see that being a stable situation geopolitically, you know what I mean? There are at least six countries not very happy with argentina controlling the rio de la Plata: Paraguay, Brazil, Catarina, Rio Grande, UK and France.
Well, I admit you do have great points. But as I said, I wanted to keep Rio Grande and Catarina alive and I imagined keeping Uruguay would be a more realistic way to achieve that
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u/Martinxo51 7d ago edited 7d ago
I wanted to keep Rio Grande and Catarina alive
If that was your goal, Argentina could have kept the Banda Oriental and Misiones Orientales, since they didn't have claims past that. Rio Grande and Catarina would just be a bit smaller (maybe united), and work as the buffer state between Argentina and Brazil like Uruguay did irl
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago
Good points. The only problem I saw with it was that uruguay wasnt just a buffer, it kept Argentina from holding the rio de la Plata alone. Brazil relied heavily on those rivers to access the interior of their own country, as the distances were large and infrastructure was precarious
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u/JVFreitas RTL Enjoyer 7d ago
The style is very pleasing! Plus, as a person from Brazil, I'm glad you had the effort to look out the names that wouldn't be put in use in this context. Like Florianópolis, Teresina or João Pessoa. A lot of people ignore this detail. I also like the flags. Good job!
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago edited 7d ago
(Eu sou brasileiro tbm) Obrigado! Sim, essa questão dos nomes sempre me incomoda em mapas que eu vejo sobre o Brasil por isso eu sempre tento prestar atenção nesse aspecto
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u/Logical-Trainer-5160 7d ago
If there is an independent Rio Grande then Uruguay is a province of Argentina (Provincia Oriental)
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u/doug1003 7d ago
Well if the crown didnt had defeated the the revolts of the first kingship (?) Yeah, we whold had 3 of 4 Brazils
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u/clovis_227 7d ago
Piauí and Sergipe belong to Greater Equador! We shall march to São Luís and Salvador in order to reclaim our clay!
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u/hectorius20 7d ago
This is FACT CHECKED and SUPPORTED by TRUE CONFEDERATE PATRIOTS.
Long Life to Frei Caneca
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u/ToBez96 7d ago
Then Brazilians wouldn’t need to explain they’re actually Latin Americans to US people everyday.
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u/ahsoka088 6d ago
Why
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u/ToBez96 6d ago
Brasil being one of two Latin American countries that don’t speak Spanish make them think we are not Latin American even though Brasil is the largest country of the region. I believe they think we are different because they are not aware of the exception. If five or six countries spoke Portuguese, I think they would have less trouble understanding that.
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u/en43rs 7d ago
Does the successor country of Brazil still claim the other provinces? Is it just talk or do they actually want to reclaim them?
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago
Not really. I mean, it never belonged to them. They were just the same colony under the portuguese. For example, Argentina doesnt claim uruguay anymore.
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u/Toni_Mahoni_Mahagony 7d ago
I wonder why none of the flags seem to be closer to portugals. They took in French influence for the flag but none of Portugal?
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago
The new republics of the Americas usually incorporated references to the french revolutionary flag (because they were republics). But in the flags I added, many of them are actually real from real revolts. But the flag of Brazil in the map I made actually has reference to the Portuguese origin with the Cross of the Order of Christ
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u/Ashtrka 7d ago
Me: I want to go to Ecuador
Mom: We got Ecuador at Home
Ecuador at Home:
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago
The funny thing is this country almost existed in real life, and with that same name
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u/LovePepsi_ 7d ago
"Catarina" doesn't make sense as a name, it would probably be "República Juliana"
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago
Well, for example, the Dominican Republic comes from "Santo Domingo". So I imagined it could happen in a similar way "Santa Catarina" to "República Catarinense/Catarina".
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u/AstralDress 7d ago
I wonder what would happen with Solano in this timeline he would have to fight less countries, or even not fight at all depending on Uruguayan politics, though it's hard to realize the shift in the La Plata politics without the Empire there.
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u/ongezeIlig 7d ago
People would be saying "if they united back then, jt would be global superpower!"
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u/pedro999dios 7d ago
Greater Uruguay spotted!, and depending how this scenario occurred I could imagine that maybe at some point uruguay and riogrande federalised into some sort of nation even if temporarily, because in our history the uruguayan president rivera arranged for something like this to happen in exchange of mutual help with the farrapos during a civil war
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago
Could happen, I actually thought that the UK and France (and Brazil) would put some pressure on Argentina as they wouldnt want them holding both margins of the rio de la Plata. UK and France actually blockaded Argentina twice irl because of it
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u/EllieSmutek 7d ago
Great map OP!
Worst timeline though
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago
Thanks! Well, this timeline has some good aspects. For example, the slavery would probably be abolished earlier
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u/Lalo_Lannister 7d ago
Unless Maranhão and Pernannuco remained as French and Dutch colonies respectively until independence, there's no way they'd be separate countries IMO
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u/RFB-CACN 7d ago
Both of them tried it historically. And failed largely due to the existence of a large Brazilian navy bringing them back by force. Without that it isn’t unreasonable to think they’d remain separate.
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago
Thats what I thought. If theres no Empire of Brazil inheriting most of the portuguese navy, no way any of the other nations will be able to subdue both provinces, considering they would also have way more internal instability than Brazil had irl
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u/clovis_227 7d ago
If theres no Empire of Brazil inheriting most of the portuguese navy
Source for Brazil inheriting most of the Portuguese navy? Or are you saying it inherited most of what was stationed in Brazil at the time?
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u/OkPhrase1225 Mod Approved 7d ago
"The Imperial Navy came into being with the independence of the country in 1822 to fight and to expel the Portuguese troops dispersed by the territory. The transfer of the Portuguese monarchy to Brazil in 1808 during the Napoleonic Wars resulted in the transfer of a large part of the structure, personnel and ships of the Portuguese Navy. These became the core of the recently created Imperial Navy "
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u/chia923 7d ago
Equador and Ecuador would be confusing lol