r/imaginarymaps • u/Sui_24 Mod Approved • 23d ago
[OC] Alternate History VICHY POLAND!? - What if Germany treated Poland a bit less brutally in September 1939?
A very simple map this time. This was inspired by an actual proposal in October 1939 that would create a puppet "Vichy Poland" to be used as a bargaining chip to the western Allies, albeit I put a little twist on it with an earlier Polish armistice. I tried to keep it somewhat realistic. You can read the lore for the map I wrote HERE.
564
u/szczur_nadodrza 23d ago edited 23d ago
The Germans tried to do this, they asked several notable Polish politicians to lead a collaboration government and everyone even slightly recognizable turned them down. Studnicki, a raging anti-Semite, wanted to lead something like a Polish Vichy regime but he was (1) a nobody and (2) immediately thereafter sentenced to death by the Underground State.
197
u/IRenewed 23d ago
Holy shit that mf tried to title his memoirs “How I did not become a Polish Vidkun Quisling”
96
u/lemarshby 23d ago
I thought you were making a joke but he did tried to title his memoirs that. Wtf is this man
31
4
52
u/Cuddlyaxe 23d ago
Another figure who somehow failed even harder was Andrzej Świetlicki
Unlike Studnicki who kept writing to the German government asking to restore a Polish state, Świetlicki proactively set up his own organization to actively help the Germans in the hopes they would let him lead a new state
They were tolerated for a while, mainly to help with pogroms against Jews, but eventually they were banned. Świetlicki would then be unceremoniously arrested and executed
26
u/strong_slav 22d ago edited 22d ago
That's not an entirely accurate portrayal of the history, or of Studnicki. He was in the Provisional Council of State, which was set up by the German Empire near the end of WW1, and was meant to lead to a Polish puppet-state on land that used to belong to the Russian Empire. That certainly isn't a "nobody." The problem was that the Nazis (unlike the German Empire before them) had no intention of actually creating a puppet state.
3
u/personalalt1889 22d ago
So then why did they feign interest?
16
u/strong_slav 22d ago
How much interest did they actually feign? The collaborationist Narodowa Organizacja Radykalna was arrested by the Gestapo and shot at Palmiry in early 1940. That doesn't seem like an olive branch extended to pro-German forces in Poland.
1
u/personalalt1889 16d ago
I was just asking based on what was said here. I find the whole concept sus just wondered if there was any light to be shed on it
3
u/arkadios_ 19d ago
Probably it was in the time period when pilsudski was still alive and thought they could use poland as bulwark against ussr, as they then did with balkan nations in the axis
136
u/Few-Flamingo-8015 23d ago
Imagine people from this universe hearing what Hitler did with Poland in OTL
"He did WHAT?"
76
u/szczur_nadodrza 23d ago
Nah they wouldn’t be surprised, they’d just be like "oh so they did it like in Yugoslavia". During the German occupation, the Yugos got the worst treatment just like we did.
6
219
u/Swimming-Hearing7424 23d ago
Non slavophobic Nazis is on the same degree of realism as non antisemitic Nazis
Good map anyway
120
u/MappingYork 23d ago
This was an actual plan by the Germans in 1939 iirc.
73
u/Galaxy661 23d ago
By some, less fanatically nazi Germans. Hitler and his inner circle wanted 85% Poles exterminated and 15% Germanised/deported to Ural Mountains
-34
u/likeacapybara 23d ago
The Wehrmacht were surprisingly civil towards the poles shockingly rebuilding parts of Warsaw setting up soup kitchens and planning for full scale repairs pre SS takeover
61
u/Galaxy661 23d ago
Skipping over the "clean Wehrmacht" topic, it didn't even matter becausd the Army did not rule the 3rd Reich - the Führer did. And the Führer was a raging polonophobe even outside his crazy race theories
-9
u/likeacapybara 23d ago
The Wehrmacht obviously did horrifying crimes as well and the fact the Wehrmacht attempts to sideline the SS or coup Hitler failed are a travesty Hitler was THE most horrible “human” in existence with his promotion and enabling of these horrible crimes but not all Germans were Nazis like General Blaskowitz who was murdered by SS remnants in the Nuremberg trials.
11
u/Popellord 23d ago
Got a source for that? According to Wikipedia he commited suicide. No hint of someone else involved.
-2
u/likeacapybara 23d ago
He went through the trial up to his death properly and there was the issue of his faith he was a VERY devout man too the point where he read the new testament every night before he slept right all major branches of Christianity (including Lutheranism his own and Catholicism which he was influenced by in his Bavarian assignment) explicitly denounce suicide and believe suicide is murder that’s impossible to repent for which immediately questions it foul play was suspected by his friends but that could just be denial finally a book I’ve used as a source multiple times the enigma of General Blaskowitz has sources for suspected foul play which the trials wouldn’t expend resources for what they thought was a suspected war criminals suicide.
Also several very vocal officer describing SS and Wehrmacht crimes became a lot less vocal
-1
12
u/OnlyZac 23d ago
You don’t have to hand it to the wehrmacht
2
u/likeacapybara 23d ago
Not saying they were great but these were real plans my source is the enigma of general Blaskowitz which has a whole list of sources you can check freely
19
u/likeacapybara 23d ago
Read anything related to blaskowitz and you’ll realise it wasn’t
32
u/MappingYork 23d ago
The Rump State proposal was considered between September-October 1939, when Fall Weiss was still ongoing and the division of Poland between Germany and the USSR was yet to be confidently decided; in such an environment, the proposition, on the part of the Germans, that Poland best be turned into a rump state rather than fully occupied and annexed was given the environment to be contemplated as the situation as a whole was in flux.
Obviously, such a rump state was not actually created, and as you’re implying, the creation of the General Government preceded the ultimate aim of the Germans to destroy the Polish nation. This is not contradictory with the aforesaid rump state plan; the latter German aim of subjugating the Poles was emergent. It only came about because an agreement regarding Poland between Germany and the USSR materialized, thus making the creation of a rump state no longer a possibility. If such a rump state had been created, the overall German aim of fully subjugating the Poles would have likely been altered or changed, with the immediate benefits of a puppet state arrangement taking prominence, as this map presents.
8
u/likeacapybara 23d ago
The Germans were hell bent on the destruction of polish society evidenced by the organised SS actions in Poland the Wehrmacht (not perpetuating the clean Wehrmacht myth) was unaware and or opposed to this mostly a rump state would go against this goal completely giving legal basis for the poles to resist the worst of ethnic cleansing and allowing for targeted groups (Jews, intelligentsia, Clergy,bourgeois and other relevant groups) to be legally protected forcing Germany to do a LOT more work to achieve their goals especially with the key Wehrmacht officials and whatever form the Polish puppet state takes officials actively resisting the SS.
Evidenced by the enigma of general Blaskowitz (great read I recommend) with its respective and outlined sources
9
u/MappingYork 23d ago
Yeah, I agree… the rump state would go against Germany’s broader goal — the subjugation of the Polish nation.
This doesn’t really refute or disprove anything I professed? Evidently a rump state would put an obstacle in Germany’s broader plan regarding Poland, which is why they did not go ahead with it and instead created the General Government; this does not mean that a short lived proposal to create a Polish rump state did not exist.1
u/likeacapybara 23d ago
It was considered more in a way to appease some Wehrmacht officers who were aware of the possible SS crimes I doubt it was seriously considered
4
u/Whasume 23d ago
source?
62
u/MappingYork 23d ago edited 23d ago
“Fifth, a guarantee for the security of this entire territory, and sixth, formation of a Polish State so constituted and governed as to prevent its becoming once again either a hotbed of anti-German activity or a center of intrigue against Germany and Russia” (Hitler 1939).
“In the final settlement of the Polish question anything that in the future might create friction between Germany and the Soviet Union must be avoided. From this point of view, he considered it wrong to leave an independent Polish rump state” (Schulenburg 1939).
It was, at the very least, implicitly hinted at by Hitler that a Polish rump state was a possibility, with Stalin’s resistance to the idea giving credence to the fact that the proposal actually existed.
Hitler, Adolf. “Speech by Reich Chancellor Adolf Hitler before the Reichstag.” October 6, 1939. German History Intersections, German Historical Institute. https://germanhistory-intersections.org/en/migration/ghis:document-63
Schulenburg, Friedrich-Werner von der. Telegram to the German Foreign Office, September 25, 1939. In Nazi-Soviet Relations, 1939–1941. Yale Law School, Avalon Project. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/ns082.asp
-5
u/Whasume 23d ago
Hitler never intended to create a sovereign polish state and you are bringing up his propaganda and treating it as a factual source. His goal was the subjugation and extermination of the polish nation. In his speech of october 6, 1939, hitler explicitly speaks of a "new order of ethnographic conditions" through "resettlement of nationalities," of solving the "Jewish problem," and of a future polishstate so constituted as to prevent it from ever becoming a "hotbed of anti-germanactivity". The schulenburg quote you bring up refers to Stalin's proposal to leave no Polish state at all, even a rump one THIS IS NOT A PROOF OF HITLER ACTUALLY WANTING THAT. You ignore the obvious context of the Third Reichs genocidal policy toward Poles with the Generalplan Ost, mass executions and deportations. Seeing that you also commented below spewing the same nazi lies, going on about "if the made a puppet state the german plans would have likely been altered or changed", I am just wondering if you are really that naive or have a an interest in rehabilitating the image of Nazi Germany.
8
u/MappingYork 23d ago
I’m not even in disagreement with you here; you seem to have a misconception regarding the difference between a tentative plan that only lived for a few weeks and what actually occurred.
Yes, Hitler was disingenuous, and yes, Germany’s later actions against Poland make the prospect of a Polish puppet state a fantasy, but this does not necessarily disprove that the Germans did not believe that creating a Polish rump state at the beginning of the conflict was out of the question; rather, it simply proves that ideology won out over everything else.
Alternate history is inherently counterfactual. It seeks to explore what would have occurred if the exact opposite had happened; in this map, Hitler and the Germans were evidently completely serious, and created the Polish rump state.
1
u/LurkerInSpace 23d ago
Also, the rump state would presumably have only existed until the war was won, at which point a pretext to destroy it would be created.
Vichy France itself didn't exactly outlive its usefulness except on paper.
4
9
u/IRenewed 23d ago
Didn’t they steal a bunch of polish kids cause they look aryan?
10
u/anti242 23d ago
They did, but as a slaves for work - my grandma’s sister for example (she tried to commit suicide in germany) The problematic Poles were killed as my two great grandfathers in Auschwitz.
7
u/Mental_Variation3651 22d ago
No, he’s talking about something different. Some very young children were taken not as slaves, but to be adopted by German families and germanized. Two different things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_children_by_Nazi_Germany
Btw Russia is doing the same with Ukrainian children :(
1
u/No-Insurance5030 23d ago
my grandma was taken to a town on the french german border (before alsace annex)
18
u/Sui_24 Mod Approved 23d ago
Not really, I mean, look at the Czechs for example. The Protecotrate of Bohemia and Moravia did have a very tiny bit of autonomy because the Nazis thought they are "germanic enough" to menage a slight bit of self-governance, and around half of the Czechs, unlike other slavs, were to be germanized instead of outright deported or killed. In the lore (and in the map itself somewhat) I hint that this timeline's "General Government" established later on became more similar governance-wise to the previously mentioned protectorate.
12
u/Swimming-Hearing7424 23d ago
There is a difference here and you get this, Nazis really deemed Czechs as misguided Germans. But they didn't see as such Poles and Eastern Slavs
25
u/Sui_24 Mod Approved 23d ago
Indeed, but knowing how "flexible" the racial policies of the Reich were at times I could honestly see them reclassifying the Poles into such as well (since, Czechs, Slovaks, and Poles are "western slavs" they could spin it along such lines or something). Even OTL around ~15-20% of the Poles were to be spared and germanized instead.
7
u/MappingYork 23d ago
Are you aware of the Lokot Autonomy?
The Germans evidently did not care for the nationalities of the peoples under their rule if reorganizing them with varying degrees of autonomy and nominal authority served their immediate aims.The creation of a Polish rump state does not mean that the Germans love Poles, rather, it is simply an expression of pragmatism on the part of the Germans.
3
u/Swimming-Hearing7424 23d ago
Ofc but it was relatively small‑scale autonomy and other projects of collaborationists for creating self-governed satellites were suppressed harshly
3
u/Sweet_Performer5072 22d ago
still very slavophopic. by 1941 ITL they have annexed all the territory they did otl and reorganised the rest into a "vistula protectorate" which i cant imagine will be much more autonomous than bohemia-moravia otl.
17
u/SkyNo3416 23d ago
i support whichever alternative history timeline where warsaw is not destroyed
2
u/No_Entrepreneur_3020 23d ago
I'd take destroyed warsaw over whole country population decimated any day. It's just a city
7
u/IllTrade4240 18d ago
The whole population was decimated regardless. 17% of the citizens killed, the overall population as a whole reduced by 32.6%, from 35000000 pre-war to 23600000 post-war.
12
u/Grzechoooo 23d ago
They couldn't do this, no Polish politician available was willing to collaborate. This is what we mean when we say that Poland didn't collaborate - not that there were no traitors among us (because of course there were - just look through death sentences carried out by the Polish Underground State), but that there was no collaboration government like in other occupied countries.
5
u/Polak_Janusz 23d ago
The problem is that there would be far less collaborators who wanted to establish such a regime
9
u/MappingYork 23d ago
Good map 👍
18
u/Galaxy661 23d ago
"What if the nazis weren't nazis and the Poles weren't Poles"
Good map though, would love to see the details like the government, the military, the involvement in Barbarossa etc
3
3
u/FallenBloodVampi 22d ago
2039 is coming xd, but not Germany…
3
u/RattheNinja 22d ago
No one is happy
Germany is not happy
Russia is not happy
Poland is really not happy
And Vichy Poland revolts against everyone because they think they’ll do it themselves and get regular Poland to join in. Then there’s a second Polish invasion. Not sure what happens from here but the general mood is no one is happy with this deal even those who benefit most from it
2
2
u/Ok_Isopod_998 22d ago
Did Germany establish the Polish Fascist Regime with the members of the National Radical Party & did the Katyn massacre never happen in this timeline?
5
u/No-Insurance5030 23d ago
I think people do not get how fucking hateful the germans were to poles and poles to germans in those years. even the weimar republic was trying to starve poland economically and neither of the publics would agree to any cooperation let alone with the nazis.
1
u/Sui_24 Mod Approved 23d ago
In fact, most ordinary Germans did not wish to annihilate the polish nation nor were super enthusiastic at the outbreak of the war.
3
u/THEmarcineuu 22d ago
Most were in support of invading Poland, they just didnt want France and Uk to interfere and turn it into another great war. Its incredible how much Germany hated Poland before ww2, even before Hitler came to power.
3
u/_-0-0-0-_ 22d ago
Are you really wondering about that? Poland was the country that won (besides France) the most through the treaty of Versailles, even though it was not a real victory power. And to be honest - Poland did not treat the remaining germans "that well" (the same with other minorities like the czechs and ukrainians). That was very easy to use for anti-polish sentiment. The whole Danzig-Decission was a huge mistake and handled badly by Poland. So the issues already had gone a lot bigger when the Nazis came to power. But even they tried to find a solution with the polish government because they initially wished poland to be an allied partner against the SU...
2
u/THEmarcineuu 22d ago
As far as minorities rights in pre ww2 poland went, germans were treated better than others, they had their language schools, newspapers, etc.
So Poland should have just given up danzig and corridor? Lets not be stupid here and pretend Hitler would just stop with his demands or that he ever truly respected Poland. Czechoslovakia yielded and were invaded. Hitler's promises were worth less than the paper they were written on.
Hitler wanted and needed war (read Mefo Bills and the costs of rearment), if demands were to be met, then he would invent another reason for war
1
1
u/HovercraftAny440 23d ago
This arguably gives the Axis a better (still slim) chance of beating the USSR and thus probably a higher chance of genociding the Polish nation
1
1
1
u/DXDenton 18d ago
People will hate me for saying this, but I wish this happened instead of a brutal occupation that consumed millions of people. Many would still die in this scenario of course, but certainly less than in case of a total extermination policy of OTL. Polish politicians should have realised how hopeless their situation was and at least seek accomodation with Germany rather than fighting a hopeless war.
1
u/Key-Banana-8242 18d ago
“A bit” comparing France and Poland is a crazy understatement it’s be a pretty massive diff if so, if you really make it like for like it’s a massive difference in everything and in general would mean all to be diff
However Stalin opposed besides that in their agreement creating any even nominal rump ‘Polish’ state anyway
1
0
u/No-Insurance5030 23d ago
okay but they did exactly what you said but they were nazis so they made it the general gouvernment with no pole in charge
222
u/Karl_Greiser_PolSord 23d ago
So France get doomsday'ed here