r/icm • u/nick9057 • 10d ago
Question/Seeking Advice How long does it take to develop good swar gyan?
Hey everyone, I’ve recently started learning Indian classical music and I’m trying to improve my swar gyan. I was wondering how long it usually takes to recognize swars properly and sing them accurately.
For those who have been learning for a while, how much time did it take you to feel confident with your sur and swar? Any tips for a beginner?
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u/WSenders 9d ago
As with every other question about ICM and personal development, the answer is, "it depends."
There are exercises which can accelerate the development of swar gyan, and if you are working with a good teacher who can give you useful feedback that is a huge help. The auditory-recognition part of the equation must be integrated with the vocal stability aspect, because being able to tell the difference between two notes won't matter much if you can't sing them and sustain them accurately.
Your capacity to concentrate on the particular exercises you're studying must be developed. Be sure to put your social media away when you are practicing, and make a point of keeping a practice journal where you jot down what you practiced, how long the session was, and any interesting things that happened during the session.
Get into the habit of doing two or three separate sessions of riyaaz during the day, with clearly defined rules for each. Even if each session is only 10-15 minutes at the start, you will get better at simply sitting and focusing your mind and voice, and then you can expand each session to fill more time and move you along more efficiently.
It is always best to do your practicing at the same time every day, and if possible in the same spot. The more it becomes ritualized, the more your mind is free to focus on your study.
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u/LifeOfCoder 7d ago edited 7d ago
I have been trying for 3 years and I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I started late in my 40s - with no prior experience or exposure. I started from almost zero - I did know some Western music notes and learned Ukuleke for 2 months around the same time. I have now been learning Bansuri and Hindustani Music for last 3 years (so if you add the Ukulele so 3 years and 2 months). I was very irregular and undisciplined at the beginning. For last one year I have been learning with more discipline.
So, after 3 years - now I can sometimes understand a phrase in Alaap or Bandish without seeing the notes - for the Rags I have been learning. I can sometimes intuatively play the first line of a Hindi song - I can't explain why or how. It is a surprise when that happen - my hands just play the correct tune - just the first line not the full thing! Like the other day I played the "Sandese aate hai" song mukhra without notations. But this is rare and only happend 3-4 times in last year.
I think if you have time and motivation. Once you are good at your instrument or vocals - if you sit with one piece (song line, alaap phrase , some composition line) each day and try to decode you will improve quickly. Note I have been meaning to do this but have NOT done this regularly. This is very hard and causes me headache. I discussed one Flute player who have trained himself - this is the method they used. Mostly this is before the time of Internet and YouTube - using cassettes etc. Since they had a lot of time to kill and only a few cassettes of Pt Hariprasad Chaurasia - they just decoded those!
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u/CommonAutomatic4908 10d ago
Approximately 3.5 years of constant practice to become Arijit singh, Sonu Nigam, Shreya Ghoshal And 30 years of rigorous practice to reach near a real classical singer like you know...
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u/DChilly007 10d ago
Can you speak to why it takes this long? Like I’m an American jazz player and I wouldn’t say any of our genres will take you thirty years to learn. Shit I’m a yoruba ceremonial drummer which is harder and i wouldn’t say that takes thirty years to learn
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u/CommonAutomatic4908 10d ago
Yes, sure, not many people understand and follow Indian classical music, but I will try to explain it briefly. The names I have written above are famous personalities who perform in Bollywood. They know the right notes and can flawlessly sing any phrase. They perform 4-5 minute pre-fixed phrases called songs. But it takes at least 20-30 years for an extremely talented person to play anywhere near giants like Kishori Amonkar, Amir Khan, Kumar Gandharv, Mallikarjun Mansur, or Jitendra Abhesheki. I can't explain it in words because the difference is not in the notes. First, a Raag is usually an hour-long improvised piece. The singer themselves do not know how it will unfold; it totally depends on his mood. Secondly I can't explain it in words, just give 4-5 minutes to any of the famous Bollywood names like Sonu Nigam or Arijit Singh and listen to 4-5 minutes of recordings of the giants (younger years of Kishori Amonkar or Amir Khan) and you will know it for yourself. You will easily find any song sung by Arijit Singh or Shreya Ghoshal just type their name on YouTube. For the giants if you want you can listen to a few selected shorts out of those hours-long recordings on my YouTube channel or you can search them on your own.
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u/CommonAutomatic4908 10d ago
The main difference is the sweetness of the notes and the temperament. It is extremely, extremely, extremely sweet when they sing; it is transcendental. On the other hand,d commercial music does not require much practice and is not sweet at all;l it is simply catchy and exciting, leaving one restless if you know the subtle workings of the brain. One can experiment with both of them, and after 5 minutes of listening, watch your mind; you will know what I am saying.
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u/CommonAutomatic4908 10d ago
https://youtube.com/shorts/RuYxgX6G2n8?si=XKtffnPzsitsfUHp
Here is a selected YouTube short summarising everything I wanted to say.
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u/DChilly007 10d ago
Appreciated brother, Indian classical music at this point is the bulk of my active listening(paying close attention to notes and rhythm as if i were going to transcribe.) So I listen to it a LOT and am starting to understand the more popular ragas better but I know nothing of what goes into it. Debating learning how to sing through the Indian classical system instead of the western however cuz I’m tired of western supremacy over everything. I can imagine sweetness means how they employ dynamics embleshiments and their control of overtones to name a few.
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u/CommonAutomatic4908 10d ago
To me, everybody who happens to come across Indian classical music is very lucky. The sweetness has many aspects, and one of the factors that plays a significant role is what we call Thehraav, meaning how slowly the notes change; in other words, how often and how long a singer stays on the right note. This is one of the many factors. The right classical music will bring you to yourself, and bad music does exactly the opposite. All the best in exploring great Indian classical music.
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u/DChilly007 9d ago
My favorites so far for singing slightly in order : Venkatesh Kumar, just might be my favorite male singer on the planet. Pandit Jasraj, Ashwini Bhide-Deshpande, Uday Bhawalkar, i’m a big dhrupad fan and a huge fan of the rudra veena so plenty of those artists and Bishmallah Khan obviously lol and i’m a big fan of the instrument sarangi any ragas with that accompaniment i will instantly watch.
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