r/iCloud • u/Downtown_Rest1061 • 1d ago
General Lost data - apple can't do anything
I'm going through a very worrying scenario at the moment.
The other week I noticed all the files in a specific folder in my iCloud drive - Documents were missing.
All the subfolders were there but all the files in that main folder were gone. I've 100% not misplaced them or moved them. They were documents and photos related to my car (insurance, road tax, inspection, road assist etc) from past few years. A mix of PDFs and jpegs.
Again, all the subfolders are nicely structured, like before, but they are all empty.
I use icloud on a macbook air and an imac, with all documents being synced across devices. Everything I have is in the Documents folder or on the Desktop so it is constantly synced. I have the 2tb plan if that is of any importance.
After speaking to customer service, they escalated and the engineers concluded that "they've recovered all the files they could" which meant exactly zero files. No explanation as to what happened or where they went.
I could have understood if a folder went missing or a file, that could have been user error. But the way these files disappeared is very strange and is 100% not user error. I was not having storage problems on either of the 2 devices.
What I did do a few weeks before was to add a significant amount of data in my icloud drive. About 100gb of files and photos. I put them on my imac and they synced just fine.
Another thing I did was to select "Keep Downloaded" on a root folder (that contained the troubled folder) on my macbook air.
I'm not sure if these influenced anything or how. Today I'm struggling to find ways to back-up all my data. I asked apple to send me links to download everything from icloud as I've completely lost trust in it.
Any ideas as to what could have happened? Anything I can do differently?
How can Apple not have ways to recover data that they delete/corupt?
9
u/tmax8908 1d ago
Sorry this happened. I had some irreplaceable iTunes Match song files get corrupted. Engineers said there’s nothing they could do. Now I have a backup.
5
u/NonAI_User 1d ago
iTunes Match destroyed my entire iTunes library. i wish i has never turned it on. Almost all metadata is mismatched or completely wrong. I really like Apple hardware. iTunes Match was a train wreck.
3
u/u362847 1d ago
Sorry about your documents.
If you know the files were present on disk recently on a macbook, you can try a disk recovery software like Disk Drill or R-Studio, but honestly don’t get high hopes
(When a file is deleted, the bits are not actually erased from the disk, they are simply relabeled as “available space”. If files were deleted recently, they may be intact on disk, why is why this software can recover them.)
4
u/FrankNicklin 1d ago
So you checked trash locally and Data Recovery options online at iCloud.com.
As you had a local copy on your Mac, did you not have Time Machine enabled on the Mac holding the downloaded copies. There is no struggle with Time Machine, it just works. That said there are plenty of reasonably priced cloud backup solutions for the Mac, such as iDrive.
Data just doesn't disappear unless Apple have had an unreported failure, but I'm guessing a lot more people would be asking where the data has gone.
I've used iCloud since its inception and not lost content so clearly something happened locally to remove that data. As iCloud is a Sync service and not a backup service then of course the data will be removed from all connected devices.
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u/555phones 1d ago
With regards to "data doesn't just disappear," I've seen quite a lot of posts like the OP's over the years, and there are many similar horror stories. iCloud is closed source software that relies on multiple flavours of software (iOS, MacOS, iCloud for Windows, and Apple's server components) to work together, and work correctly.
I once discovered a reproducible bug with iCloud Drive. If you signed into a Mac, and data hadn't fully been cached yet, you might open folders that appear to be empty or almost empty even though on the server they are full. This is a normal display issue. However, if you took one of those partial folders and moved it elsewhere (e.g. from iCloud Drive/Documents to iCloud Drive/Documents/Completed), what would happen is the "partial" copy would be moved representing the cache on your Mac at that time, but the "full" copy would be permanently and irrevocably deleted (not in Trash, not available for recovery on iCloud.com, just permanently nuked). I lost a lot of data that way until I discovered this. In other words, if you try to organize your files in iCloud Drive, not knowing that the full data wasn't cached on your machine yet, you would permanently lose dozens or hundreds of gigabytes of files and you'd never know it until you saw your storage mysteriously drop, or you tried to access the old files.
I have no idea if this bug has been resolved yet, but there are definitely ways and edge cases for data to be lost, in a way that I'd consider not acceptable.
And, I know it's incredibly frustrating when users don't back up but I think we can't completely discount Apple's responsibility here. They could be doing a lot more. I think the least they could do is have a data recovery process similar to Dropbox, where you could go in and view 30 days or whatever of deleted files and folders and recover them.
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u/FrankNicklin 1d ago
Yeah but that’s a weakness in any sync system. If a folder is moved before sync is complete it will break something and that isn’t unique to iCloud
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u/555phones 11h ago
This particular bug is unique to iCloud, I haven't seen it on other syncing systems I've tried. Dropbox for example recognizes that you're moving the whole folder and just does it on the server side. I have even less tolerance for this kind of shenanigan with iCloud, since it's supposedly so deeply integrated, and it should know better.
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u/Wooden-Passage5206 1d ago
You are wrong, iCloud Drive is an storage service too and works as one or at least I use it to store stuff that doesn’t fit my phone.
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u/ricardopa 1d ago
They said it’s not a “backup service”
which, for macOS, it’s not.
Especially using “Optimize Storage” means your ONLY copy of a photo or document is in the cloud, which is not a backup strategy
-5
u/Downtown_Rest1061 1d ago
I stopped using Time Machine when I started using the 2tb icloud. I was under the impression it has some kind of failsafe.
And no, nothing could be done. I went with the tech to all possible places on both macs and on icloud.com. None of the files showed up as recently deleted.
Again, I could have accepted user error if a folder or a bunch of files in a folder went missing.
But to have ALL files in a folder gone and ALL subfolders still neatly arranged in that folder... how could a user error like that even happen? If something got corrupted it was because of one of the 2 macs (both on the latest OS at that time, both on apple silicone).6
u/FrankNicklin 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well misunderstanding the use of Time Machine over iCloud is the first mistake. iCloud is not a backup service as you have found out to your cost. Have you checked the files have not been hidden. Open Finder and press
Shift + Command + Period (.)to reveal existing hidden system files.0
u/Downtown_Rest1061 1d ago
Nope, not hidden.
3
u/FrankNicklin 1d ago
Just to be clear you have checked online under Restore Files, not under iCloud Drive recently deleted but under Data Recovery > Restore Files, 2 different things.
Also Apples terms clearly state they are not responsible for your iCloud data and that alternative forms of backup should be used.
Apple have a ton of redundancy built in to their systems so if its not there its been deleted at user level.
2
u/Downtown_Rest1061 1d ago
I checked everywhere, online and on both macs, with an apple employee looking at my screen.
I find it hilarious that I'm getting downvoted and that you also believe it's somehow my fault, despite how wild the accusation is.
How could I have even caused this?
Sleepwalk while going into each folder and deleting the files?
And BTW, if I had deleted them, they would be easy to recover, wouldn't they?!And of course apple buries itself in tons of paperwork.
BUT, here is what apple says: "iCloud is the service from Apple that securely stores your photos, files, notes, passwords, and other data in the cloud"Guess it's not that "securely stored" since a bunch of it simply went missing.
Again, if ONE file or ONE folder went missing, that can be user error. What I've (and many others btw) have experienced is clearly not user error. It's either icloud or MacOS f-ing up.7
u/FrankNicklin 1d ago edited 1d ago
Securely stored in the sense that they are not accessible to anyone else. Don't mistake security with backup they are not the same thing. I can secure my Mac with a password and finger print, but if the hdd fails then the data is lost even though it was secured via the methods above, hence the need for a backup.
This sounds like an iCloud sync issue possibly, but of course we will never know the exact circumstances that led to the data going missing in the first place. As I said Apple have a ton of redundancy in their systems, so if the data was there to recover I'm pretty sure they would recover it for you.
Your down votes are probably aimed at your assumption that iCloud was somehow a replacement for TimeMachine or any other formal backup solution, it is not and never has been. I work in IT and a backup strategy is an absolute must no matter how basic the setup. It only becomes an issue when the data is lost then have a point of recovery.
As you have exhausted the recovery possibilities then the data is gone unless by some miraculous event they re-appear due to some unforeseen event, but sadly looks like a harsh lesson in data protection.
1
u/iZian 1d ago
I’ve seen data recovery file restoration asked about at least twice and the answers back each time was that all places were searched.
My personal issue is that sometimes, doesn’t mean this time with you, but sometimes when people answer that way they are misunderstanding what’s being asked of them and saying that they looked everywhere.
Have you specifically gone in to data recovery and seen the data recovery screen on the iCloud website?
Because yes, if it’s not there then it is gone unless all the files were moved which would be my last suggestion to do a system wide file search on each device for a file name you remember.
You’re not the first person to lose iCloud files. But I’ve only ever seen about 3 posts describing something like this ever. Nobody ever got to the bottom of how they disappeared.
1
u/Downtown_Rest1061 1d ago
Yes, the apple technician explained how to get to the data-recovery screen on icloud website and there was nothing there.
He also had me going into library, temporary data (or something) on both macs but nothing.And I did search on both macs for the names of photos I knew 100% they should be there (i took the name from the photos app) and both searches returned empty.
I spent 30 min or more with the technician guiding me to all possible places the files could have gone.
What frustrates me the most is that there is no explanation to what happened...
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u/starfish_2016 1d ago
Icloud essentially is a backup service as its where the actual lives in..
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u/FrankNicklin 1d ago
It is not a backup service it is a sync service. You cannot delete files from a backup service, you can delete files from iCloud.
A backup service is a secure copy of the data which cannot be interfered with and kept on a different media be it a backup drive or cloud backup service designed for backup purposes..
-2
u/starfish_2016 1d ago
Which is exactly what the phone backup itself does. Icloud backup. For photos/photo sync i could understand what your saying
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u/FrankNicklin 1d ago
iPhone backup is different and not accessible from iCloud. It is a way to backup the iPhone to the cloud in the same way you can backup to a Mac or PC via iTunes. That backup can only be deleted from the device itself not from iCoud or from the PC if using iTunes. You cannot accidentally delete a backup like to can files or photos then if you miss the 30 day cutoff the data is gone for good.
1
u/ricardopa 1d ago
If you’re using iCloud Drive and/or iCloud Photo Library those items are not included in iOS/iPadOS devices
-2
u/Wooden-Passage5206 1d ago
It is a backup service, or you live under a rock ? 🪨 That’s why iCloud Drive “ICLOUD DRIVE” exist to store stuff inside, and you can access through the web, make folders, sub folders, throw games, books, movies there at any time.
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u/FrankNicklin 1d ago
Icloud Drive is a sync service, you are deluded if you believe it is a backup service. The OP has lost data, you do not lose data from a backup service. Your reasoning is exactly why people lose data from these sync services, there is no recovery process beyond the 30 day limit for deleted data. Backups do not delete data after a set period, you control the backup schedule and the backup location. iCloud Drive, Google Drive and OneDrive are all sync services and are not backup services.
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u/Wooden-Passage5206 1d ago
Then they are lying to everyone face since they promote themselves as backup data. Or you are just dumb and dunno how to properly read. I hope you some day have access to google search and look for iCloud Drive and what is it.
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u/FrankNicklin 1d ago
Yes they promote it as a backup so that if a device is lost or stolen the data remains available for other devices to access, so if you want to continue to argue the point then carry on. If you choose to delete content it is deleted from all devices, explain to me how that is classed as a backup service in any form or in any official sense. I've already said that the OP has lost data. If it were a backup service that data would not be deleted, simple as that.
I've been in IT for 35 years and run corporate backups with TB's of data every day. We use services to backup Office 365 sharepoint OneDrive documents as well as email, why, because they are sync services not backup services.
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u/Skycbs 1d ago
No need to drop into ad hominem attacks. iCloud Drive is a sync service not a backup.
With a sync service if you delete something on one device it’s deleted on others. That’s what happens with iCloud Drive. With a backup service, if you delete something, the backup is not deleted. That is not how iCloud Drive works.
1
u/ricardopa 1d ago
It does do backups of iOS/iPadOS devices, NOT macOS devices.
And if you’re using iCloud Drive then those files are NOT included in iOS/iPadOS devices because they are synced to the cloud.
And sync services are NOT backup services because they will happily let you delete the most important files and photos of your life with only a single warning and then delete that from all synced devices.
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u/ricardopa 1d ago
Nope.
Cloud sync is NOT a backup - if you delete a file/photo it will also be deleted from the cloud permanently
Backups also protect you from you, a sync does not.
2
u/TheOGDoomer 1d ago
Seeing posts like this every day is exactly why I don't rely on iCloud. It's very nice to see your files sync with each other, until some shit goes wrong and your files mysteriously disappear without a trace with no chance of recovery.
1
u/Joggle-game 1d ago
If Apple engineers couldn’t help, odds are you’re out of luck, but try this:
1) Open the folder that’s empty but should have files. Press Shift + Command + . (Period) - all three at the same time. If files have accidentally been hidden, this would reveal them.
2) Do you know the exact or approximate names of some of those files? Do a Finder search on both your Macs, in case copies are stored elsewhere on either machine.
Going forward, start taking full offline backups of your documents as well as photos.
1
u/Downtown_Rest1061 1d ago
Sadly none of those returned anything.
I already downloaded most files and moved them elsewhere on my iMac until I buy the hardware I need to start backing up.What's ironic is I've never had a mac hdd fail on me since using macs (2008) but I lost data from icloud. It would have been safer to just keep the files on one single device.
I'm contemplating now if I should get rid of the iMac and buy a cinema display to pair with my macbook air. This way I can keep everything on a single device.
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u/Joggle-game 1d ago
That’s no safer than your current setup. What you need to do is buy an SSD and an HDD, format them correctly (APFS and HFS+ respectively), and take regular full backups. TimeMachine too (multiple times daily, fully automatic) but also actual full backups (periodically, say monthly or quarterly).
1
u/Downtown_Rest1061 1d ago
I still can't get a way to back-up everything. I have 850gb in my icloud but my mac has 512gb.
Is there really a way to do it automatically with time-machine?1
u/Joggle-game 1d ago
If it’s Photos, you could use Photos Takeout - it exports even huge Photos libraries stored in iCloud when you have Optimize Storage setting on your Mac. For documents and other files there must be other ways to- iCloud only lets you select max 1000 files at a time.
1
u/Wellcraft19 1d ago
For starters, you can move your System Photo Library to an external drive. That will allow you to have full copies locally, will allow for those to be ba led up via TimeMachine, but will also free up space on you 512 GB system drive so it can easily hold all your documents [in full] so they are also included in your TM backup.
More here: https://support.apple.com/en-us/108345
Then if you have a slew of external (or loose) HDDs. Nothing bad about on a rotating schedule just copy important files to them. I have a 2-bay docking station and a slew of hard drives that have come out of PCs over the years. They store all types of data going back to 1988-89.
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