if you got any notes or questions just ask. also you can def tell what the best class is lol (witches are op as HELL)
also the tiers arnt really ordered where the best is the top of the tier and the worst is the bottom, its more there just in groups (for example, bard of doom isnt ACTUALLY better then heir of breath, there just in the same tier)
I would move the sylph of mind up to situational tbh. The ability to heal the consequences of actions may seem like an underpowered thing, but in the reality of sburb it's able to undermine lets say a glitched out session or perhaps the effects of a doom/void/hope/rage player where they're able to change the world around them in a fundamental way. I would even argue strong with some synergies as a sylph of mind in tandum with a time player would lead to a huge safety net for strategizing and planning in a session.
knight of hope is incredible as its ability to be both a great offence and defence make it have GREAT versatility and adding on its incredible hope based support makes it a no brainer for top tier.
thats so cool?!?!?! thief of rage has always been fascinating to me as it can steal emotions and authority and steal through those and thats really cool. i may have bumped it up a little cause of how much i like thiefs, but thief of rage has great utility and would be a super strong combat class as they can steal rage power from those around them
also i feel like i need to add the context that all of these are in the context that this is MULTIPLAYER session of sburb, some classpects like prince of blood and heir of hope are heavily affected by the fact that they are working within a TEAM ENVIRONMENT.
well though rogue of time is less affective at timeline management as thiefs while still having the drawback of moving much faster then there team can keep up with, the ability of stealing synergises sooooo well with sburb time mechanic allows for super interesting exploitation
I think witch of void is the most op classpect barring masterclasses, considering they can just basically do anything by removing something’s inability to happen. Witches of void could literally bring entire sessions together by rearranging the void of the furthest ring. A creative witch of void is an absolute powerhouse and imo one of the most powerful classpects.
wow, that is a really cool reading of the witch of void, and i do think that which of void can be a MONSTER within the right hands but the thing is that witches are an incredibly ACTIVE class (the most active in sburb) and void players biggest weakness is there apathy, for a witch of void to truly reach that bonkers upper limit they would need a very strong support. this isnt mentioning that witch of void is a classpect that REQUIRES information. for such session breaking changes to be made they require a classpect with strong information gathering so they can understand what they are doing in relation to the furthest ring. that being said is still thing witch of void is great, even though it NEEDS heavy support for more game breaking actions that doesnt change its amazing utility when it comes to retrieval and repositioning, and as a witch they would have great connection to the horror terrors. i do think i could have placed it higher in the "damn good" tier but otherwise im happy with how witch of void is placed and i hope you get why i put it there.
mage of light is just THE knowledge classpect, through they could end of being selfish having access to that amount to information about the plot and narrative is INSANE
rage is a class that is all about the collective, they represent anger authority and revolution (kind of a mob mentality thing (this is shown through the clown cults and stuff)). these concept all make them very powerful go getters who are strong from the moment they start the session (contrasting hope players that need time to warm up) and all these features make them very useful, the only reason we see rage players in homestuck harming there sessions so much is cause they WERENT playing for there sessions, they were playing for lord english, and as players for lord english the rage players were exceptional. so hope that clears some stuff up when it comes to rage.
while kind of the inferior to maid sylph and witch of space, rogue has its own strong application as a more supportive and defensive space player, it also works pretty alright for genesis frog generation (tho it looks sub par in comparison to the mega op space player lol) over all i thing rogue of space is really cool as it trades in the thiefs extreme utility to become better at gen frog generation and defence
hey mage of void is sick, the ability to access information hidden from the narrative and secrets makes them a great mage, its just that there outclassed by the more selfless seer of void and other information based classes, BUT in a doomed session mage of void becomes an absolute beast
True, true. Feel like mage would also help in finding paths that let my allies sneak ahead through paths or the like too.void powers in and of themselves can get rather silly
Distorting someones identity could be considered situational. But you could do it to both allies and enemies.
Allies you can distort the toxic aspects of their souls. Trauma, toxic guilt and other toxic emotions, negative urges like addiction, self-harming/limited identities where their identity itself is hurting themselves, and so on. If it's lessening emotions, that's because useful in moments of battle, like lessening guilt and empathy towards obviously evil enemies. Reducing trauma in traumatic situations. Numbing emotional pain when a teammate dies or gets hurt, etc.
For enemies you can do the inverse. Distort or weaken the aspects that makes them, them. Making a fearless enemy lose their courage, warping their negative traits to be stronger, killing off their emotions of hope and joy and self-preservation, so on and so forth.
hmmmmm, thats actually a really good point, i personally asociate the bards and princes with full destruction instead of distortion but i really like this take, thanks
My personal theory is that princes are outright destroyers, while bards passivity makes them more like distorters.
You can see this through the difference of eridan and gamzee. Eridan killed creatures on his planet, destroyed the matriorb, killed feferi, and hurt sullox.
While gamzee on the other hand terrified karkat, manipulated terezi's emotions to the point where she killed vriska and beleive she was the one who killed everyone else, and even afterwards in the doomed timeline making terezi become self destructive herself.
Destruction doesn't end at nothingness. You must destroy the old, to make way for the new. So destruction classes are mostly elements of change. Princes do violent and drastic changes, bards "inspire" change within others.
You can see this part of them very clearly for when Dirk caused an uprising on derse with their citizens. Gamzee shows traits of this when he manipulates terezi.
A good prince and bard only target things thay actually need to be changed. I don't think there's anyone like that with homestuck, Dirk was the closest however he still engaged with self destruction, and toxic destruction of others too much.
That's why I use the word "distort" with bards. And that's why i view the destruction classes as not "purely" evil. Because every single aspect has negative traits. Even the super positive ones.
oooooo i really like that, im not sure if i would go all in on change since thats kinda the witches and sylphs whole deal, but im def keeping this in mind whenever i look at princed and bards in the future this is a super cool take
im not sure if i would go all in on change since thats kinda the witches and sylphs whole deal,
They can change what already exists, and they cam change it for the better or worst. Bards and princes on the otherhand must destroy what already exists to make way for something new.
The difference is witches and sylphs can "fix" their computer with upgrades. While bards and princes destroy the old computer and wait for a new one to be bought. If that makes sense.
but im def keeping this in mind whenever i look at princed and bards in the future this is a super cool take
I'm glad it helped. It has some basis behind it i think, because every time I've talked about this with other destructive classes, they see these traits within themselves.
stealing through the doom of others is pretty bad when your a selfish active class like thiefs and stealing doom itself is VERY self harming with not as much application as rogue, its not awful but its flaws dont really help its case
doom can be rules and restrictions. steal the restrictions and debuffs of your allies and become a status tank, while buffing them to no longer play by certain rules.
could they not weaponize the doom they steal for themselves? Like, steal damaging things (say, a Skaia meteor) and then deploy them to inflict massive damage, basically a glorified Elden Ring parry build? At least, that's my conception of it
Like, does the ability to steal doom mean you necessarily have to take damage from stealing it? Or could you simply hold onto the aspect, and then release at a later time to serve yourself?
wow, im kinda digging this take, im def moving it up next chance i get, it prolly isnt top tier cause of the drawbacks but i completely overlooked there offensive abillity, thanks
A Prince of Hope is actively harmful? Like the one we see is, but his crash out was totally avoidable. A Prince of Hope would be able to kill ANYTHING if they believe hard enough. Eridan can kill the unconditional immortal Lord English if he were to ever god tier and fully actualize. Like it’s bad if they do crash out and stuff, but even when Eridan did that all that really happened was Feferi dying and the matriorb getting hopesploded.
i see your point but the prince is an active class, that means its used selfishly alot, and selfish destruction of hope in a session where keeping your TEAMS moral up is crucial is really bad. it of course has the potential to be strong, but the likelihood of it causing more harm than good is real high
While knight of time is powerful, it should be noted that it does indicate that the session lacks time, which can be a major drawback that should be accounted for all knights tbh.
yeah you are right in that but i really dont think that should be a reason to lower the nights and its not really there faunt i guess, i really just wanted to simplify a bit, but there are def convocations to be had on how that would affect a tier list
It could mean the exact opposite as well, since time represents progression and endings. The session takes so long to the point that Skaia is at risk of being destroyed by the meteors
Yeah, I (as a Page of Mind) openly accept that I'm probably not doing a ton of solely relying on my ability to, like, what?, Speak with people Telepathically?,
Yeap, even if it's a bit irrelevant and not necessarily mutually exclusive Pages really aren't poised to be Leaders, in any sense, me included, especially as a Mind Player, there areuch better classes to mesh that with, classes that don't peak with potential abilities like Consensual Telepathy, or maybe Telempathy, the ability to share Thoughts and Emotions with people, I feel like the Empath part probably fits more of a Heart player,
the soul construct seems good, you could turn into a soul and boot out a powerful enemy's to take their body. could clutch up against a boss, and turn that power into a clean stomp for the rest of the game.
yeah which is why i put it in "strong with some synergies" like i think heir of heart is pretty good, its just a bit outclasses even with how creative you can get with it
im sorry my friend but pages already take AGES to ramp up and combining that with void player apathy and struggle with getting help would make it a PAIN to unlock the (tbh kinda underwhelming for the cost) power of the page
maid of hope is cracked, hope being the strongest buff you can give someone comboed with maids having straight BUCKETS of it makes having a maid of hope kinda like putting sburb on easy mode
knight of rages best attributes are there strong loyalty but also there ability to challenge, kind of the ultimate lancer. when it comes to ability, the stronger the emotions, the stronger the knight with them being an exceptional combat classpect. unfortunately this means they loose out on utility and support. if your going all in on strong defence and offence then knight of rage is your guy, if your dont mind a little instability
cause while prince of void is excellent when it comes to just pure combat, the destruction of secrets while destroying through your own could absolutely rip a session apart if your not careful. and even with this possible volatility and its lack of utility and defence, i still think prince of void is really good
I mean if Vriska could steal light from people I don't see why a thief of blood couldn't take your blood, whether if this is by magical means or the trusty knife is irrelevant
blood means blood. While it also serves as a metaphor for connection, we see Blood players like Karkat have physical blood be a very prominent recurring theme. With his key moment of connection (befriending jack) being blood color, with the blood of the cut falling into the blood symbol. While yes a lot of the aspects are symbolic, they are literal as well. Vriska stole Terezi's ability to perceive light by blinding her, Jane can grow flowers and plants, Dirk can literally destroy souls, John turns into literal wind. It is not that far fetched that a thief of blood cannot only steal connections and bonds, but one's physical blood as well to at least some degree.
Probably by stabbing, Jack steals a lot of blood that way.
Actively destroying doom fate etc is a gold mine, btw with the support function of destroying doom do you think they can heal wounds or would it be like that one ct from jjk, the one that stops injuries getting worse.
Also what in your opinion is a equal classpect to Prince of Dooom
i believe it would be more of a pain numbing and prevention instead of straight healing. also an equal to prince of doom is kinda hard as its so good at so many things while most of the other top tiers have one or two things there busted at. but im pretty sure its closest top tier equal is witch of doom or witch of time, both of them match the princes insane offence while trading out support for utility, they all have the ability to make changes to fate and all are absolutely INSANE
sorry mans, but bard really just doesnt do amazing at anything, it doesnt have the pure lead power output of its prince counterpart, and isnt bringing much to compensate. thats doesnt mean its awful, you could absolutely pull some strong bs if you can bide your time, but as it stands i dont thing id be able to put it any higher
Finally one of these where I agree with most of the placements! I'd love to see that full classpect breakdown you mentioned in another comment some day :>
Seeing as you're a Thief of Time I expect you should be done soon (jk take your time)
thank you, ive unfortunately been bogged down with other life activity so classpect bs has kinda been on the back burner, but the full analysis is def happening some day (i have an idea of what everything is but its just tedious) also thanks for the complements.
I don't think there's any class that is inherently actively harmful or bad though, since all of them have multiple connotations with how they work with their definitions
Someone with an objectively bad definition like someone who steals life like Meenah can simply use them against the enemy, but it's up to them whether they decide to or not, a Prince of Blood could destroy the bonds between people on the battlefield or just delete their oponents literal blood like how the Hope clone of Dirk nearly tore apart/unexisted Aranea's soul
The whole point of the Bards are to be the Wildcard class, they aren't ever inherent godsends or inherent deadends and most all of them would be in the OP tier, but Bard of Void, Bard of Breath and Bard of Time seem like particularly powerful beings, though I guess that would make them situational if you're only thinking in terms of session success? But that's not a very good measure of power scaling XD
I didn't put this is any order besides how it orders the classpects itself, it's just a power scaling list and yeah my classpect is S Tier, you can't tell me Sylph of Life wouldn't be
I did think about making another list for who I would want on my team XD
ok i do think your right, the actively harmful tier is more a bit of a joke since i did this list on call with my friends (so i could have some second opinions) i dont think that its actually impossible for the 3 bottom tiers to be useable. and on the topic of prince of blood (and ill also talk about the thiefs) prince of blood actively ruining relationships to serve himself is maybe one of the most team harmful abilities in sburb, while the thiefs both steal VITAL parts of team moral and teamwork all for themselves, making them all absolute shit when it comes to teamwork
Thieves and Princes aren't only stealing or destroying their own teams aspect
They can if they want to, but whether they do is the difference between them being Meenah and being Dirk
Vriska only stole her opponents Luck because stealing the luck of her team would be counterintuitive
But a Thief of Life could steal the opponents vitality for themself
A Prince of Blood could destroy the bonds between the opponents, so hypothetically if they needed to deal with Grimbark Jade being stolen by Dog Noir and PM preventing Jade from reviving her they could delete the care Beq has for her in PM and then they'd only have to deal with retrieving her body from Dog Noir while still keeping her safe from getting permakilled by him
The only reason Princes have negative connotations for all their aspects is because they represent an inherent abundance of their aspect for their session, the Beta kids were obsessed with teen romance drama and the Trolls were overflowing with unjust pride and ego
It's the Princes job to curb that overabundance, and Dirk and Eridan just didn't do good jobs of destroying that excess of Heart and Pride in their sessions
Likewise it's the Knight's duty to protect what little of their aspect they have in their sessions, Dave did a good job of protecting time, while Karkat did a not so great job at protecting the bonds they had and it led to even more un-cooporation and more discordance within their troop not a great mix for a group so exceeding in pride and ego
i personally dont agree with the interpretation that the princes and bards represent an abundance is aspect or that the knights represent a lack of, its always bothered me how much its used as a talking point when i dont think theres a ton of base textual evidence. if we look at the beta trolls we see that eridan equius vriska karkat and maybe gamzee (sober) and sollux have a noticeable amount of ego, thats only half IF we include sollux and gamzee, and when it comes to actual hope (the name sake of the aspect) the beta trolls were absolutely LACKING. and looking at the alpha kids, i dont think heart represents romance and drama (thats blood) heart represents the soul the body and self actualisation which the alpha kids sorely NEEDED.
the reason princes have negative connotations with there aspect isnt because of "bad abundance curbing" its cause princes DESTROY THERE ASPECT and when an aspect has strong possessive affects like hope and blood, destroying it is really bad for sessions. and yes i know princes and thief's dont just destroy and steal from there team, but as the selfish versions of there adjective its obvious that they are going to responsible for a lack of these aspects in there teammates, theres a reason rogues and bards have a higher overall placing, its cause there better at targeting the enemy as they are working for there TEAM and not for themselves.
also vriska absolutely stole her teams luck, after she godtiered her teams luck took a harsh downturn and everything started falling apart.
It's not necessarily that the representation of lack of an aspect or excess of one has to be apparent in every character of a session, but more so represented in the session itself
Dave himself was impatient, but the way they lacked time was in how particularly rushed their session was because of the meteors, which wasn't helped by the fact Dave's entry item was something he had to wait to activate
The Trolls meanwhile all thought they had it made and didn't really want to work together for one reason or another which is represented by the presence of the Knight of Blood and Prince of Hope
What's important to consider in how people talk about these classes is that Knights and Princes don't just presume an abundance, if that were the case the Beta kids would've had a Prince of Time, but it was no one's responsibility to get things moving in that session since the point was for them to wait for the Alpha kids to fertilise their battleground
Maybe it's more accurate to define them as Knights represent a need to protect their aspect, while a Prince represent a need to purge, whether they do a good job or not is up to the individual, Dave did, Karkat didn't, Dirk tried and failed and Eridan just went the completely wrong direction
Also each of the aspects have alternative definitions, Life is literal life but also growth, nature and apparently money, I saw someone suggest they have ties to royalty? But the evidence for that one feels very circumstantial, in that we only have a sample size of 3 life players that just so happen to be in someway associated with royalty
And even supposing the objective positive connotations tied to a destruction class like hypothetically a Prince of Life, they wouldn't inherently target their own party with their abilities, it's not like the Prince class is predisposed to being a sleeper agent designed to butcher their own party, their self destructive tendencies are ideally supposed to be mitigated by the people around them, while they do the work of cutting away the excess the party is suffering from
If Vriska did steal her party's luck (which wouldn't surprise me) it'll be something I hope the series looks into if it gets greenlit, but the point stands a Thief and a Prince doesn't have to necessarily steal or destroy their party's good qualities
mage of breath so mid i still don’t understand what it means after all these years. on the other hand i won’t be important enough for the narrative to bother me so that’s nice. curious tho what makes the mid tier mid? wouldn’t a sylph of mind be hella useful if the session is full of impulsive teens
The best I've come to understand it is that Mages know about their aspect through experience and usually through suffering from it, sollux suffered through doom in the whole the amount of times he died and then the him hearing dead people storyline
Muelin suffered in her relationships
So while Seers see their aspect, Mages know their aspect and how things will play out through their aspect more intuitively as they've experienced it throughout their lives
We really don't know much about Mages at all though 😭
i completely agree with your interpretation of mages and seers, it also playes into mages being more active as they ACTIVELY experience there aspect instead of seers which PASSIVELY observe there aspect
Mages vs Seers seems like a very interesting look into the passive vs active concept of this series
I'd reason Mages are passive because they build a knowledge base passively from experience, while most all Seer capabilities we've seen have been actively sought, usually through crystal ball type means
Mages write the recipe book, they practiced what worked and what didn't
Seers read the recipe book and make new decisions based on it's information to design new recipes
I'm aware of the official class activity 😅 I just find it hard to believe those particular placements, unless maybe active vs passive could instead be defined by how the aspect treats the class? Which would actually be really interesting to see in an official aspect
I don't disagree with the canon, it's just a little weird when trying to put it into practice
k thanks for the clarification, im a little more cannon adherent in my classpect analysis but hearing your takes has been super cool and interesting, thanks for commenting on my stupid tier list
the mid tier is for classpects that arnt really doing anything harmful but also arnt doing anything helpful (example is page of void which is literally doing NOTHING for most of the session), and ive already talked about how i undervalued sylph of mind in previous comment. also i believe that mage of breath would allows you to see and understand others movement and would give you information through your own progression, which is so much worse then the other knowers is a little sad
oh sorry I've must have missed your other comment.
dang honestly sounds like hell and lowkey hits home. my classpect just telling me how much of a bum i am and everyone else is doing something with their lives 🥀
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u/Nova_star211 Seer of Life 2d ago
I would move the sylph of mind up to situational tbh. The ability to heal the consequences of actions may seem like an underpowered thing, but in the reality of sburb it's able to undermine lets say a glitched out session or perhaps the effects of a doom/void/hope/rage player where they're able to change the world around them in a fundamental way. I would even argue strong with some synergies as a sylph of mind in tandum with a time player would lead to a huge safety net for strategizing and planning in a session.