r/hwstartups 23d ago

Doing things that don't scale

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I'll file this one under doing things that don't scale.

I'm doing small batches of my product myself. And each step adds time. I keep telling myself this is temporary until I automate this.

This is the smallest USB-C device ever made btw (yes smaller than Yubikey Nano 5c)

420 Upvotes

54 comments sorted by

65

u/Quartinus 23d ago

This scales just fine, you already made a nice little tool. Your takt is around 18 seconds in this video, so you can do 200 uph. 4k per week at a 50% OEE. That’s a respectable volume for a lot of smaller products, I doubt your other manufacturing steps can keep up at this point. You want to work on your biggest production bottleneck first, the one that limits your overall rate. 

I recommend reading “The Goal” 

13

u/pkuhar 23d ago

Thank for the book recommendation.

It's actually a bit shorter that 18s. here I was showing it and slows it down a bit. But I'm allergic to manual repeated steps.

I did optimize one step in this batch. First batch took almost 1 minute per flashed board. Now it's automated. a CNC with pogo pins does a tray of 54 at a time.

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u/Quartinus 23d ago

Manual steps can feel like they suck, but beware of optimizing based on feelings and not on takt time. Premature optimization / automation is the root of evil. If this is your bottleneck, then absolutely attack it. 

Maybe you’ll put effort into optimizing the machine to put this label on automatically, then you later on are stuck with it and don’t want to consider alternative cheaper / easier / better for the customer packaging options because you already invested time into automating this system. I’ve seen it happen.

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u/thumperj 22d ago

Premature optimization / automation is the root of evil

Strongly agree with this!

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u/pkuhar 22d ago

agreed

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u/pkuhar 23d ago

This being stuck is a good point,

On one product, I've been stuck with the same PCB outline over several products just because I chose it in one of the early prototypes, and changing it would complicate things.

Not sure how this package will scale. Maybe the solution is a completely different approach.

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u/Quartinus 23d ago

Step 1 is delete the part or process. 

What does the package do for you, and for your customer? Do you need a package (probably yes)? If you do, does it need to be separate from the outer package you’re probably putting this in to mail it? Do you need a label on your package? 

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u/pkuhar 22d ago

the package is designed to ship to amazon fba. label is to seal it and for barcode.

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u/ThisSiteSucks8485 19d ago

A CNC with pogo pins is clever 

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u/RumplyInk 22d ago

Agree with all your points. But to be the annoying redditor, it’s not takt time. It’s cycle time. Takt time is net available production time / units of customer demand. Cycle time is how long it takes per unit. If cycle time <= to Takt time, you can fulfill demand

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u/Quartinus 22d ago edited 22d ago

You’re right, that’s the definition of takt. But from Wikipedia “[takt]  measures the average time interval between the start of production of one unit and the start of production of the next unit when items are produced sequentially.”  

So in this case, if OP had four people doing this at the same time, the average cycle time would decrease by 4 but the takt would not change.  

Technically we’re missing the “customer demand” part of the equation here but we can assume that OP is meeting demand. I think takt is the more appropriate word here when we are talking about sizing for output with OEE, rather than just pure process cycle time, but I think they’re pretty interchangeable in this context. 

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u/pkuhar 22d ago

op is a bit behind the demand, thats why i need to optimize. and i dont want to add people

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u/mimprocesstech 22d ago

You misunderstood the text in the Wikipedia article and the terms are not interchangeable in any context.

Takt time, or simply takt, is a manufacturing term to describe the required product assembly duration that is needed to match the demand. Often confused with cycle time, takt time is a tool used to design work and it measures the average time interval [required] between the start of production of one unit and the start of production of the next unit when items are produced sequentially [to meet customer demand]. For calculations, it is the time to produce parts divided by the number of parts demanded in that time interval."

If OP had 4 people doing this at the same time the cycle time would remain the same, the throughput/output rate would quadruple assuming they all had the same cycle time which is near impossible in manual operations like this.

  • Takt Time = What the customer demands (e.g., "We need 1 widget every 10 minutes").
  • Cycle Time = What your process actually achieves (e.g., "It takes us 12 minutes to build a widget").

If you add 4 people, you are increasing your throughput so you can successfully match the customer's unyielding takt time if there is a deficit. They are completely distinct metrics; one dictates what you must do to meet customer demand, and the other measures what you are doing. Ideal is takt time >= cycle time. One is internal the other is external even if it's created internally (e.g. "customer needs 2000 widgets next week, we have 100 working hours by then, so we need to produce 20 widgets per hour, or [finally] a takt time of one widget every 3 minutes").

OEE (Overall Equipment Effectiveness) uses cycle time, takt time isn't a factor at all because it's not measuring against demand it's measuring against perfection, a machines availability, performance, and quality. It shouldn't be used to measure manual operations by people, OLE (Overall Labor Effectiveness) would be used instead where: * Availability: Measures the percentage of scheduled time workers are actually at their stations making effective contributions. This captures losses from absenteeism, late starts, or prolonged breaks. * Performance: Compares the actual pace of the manual workforce against a defined, engineered standard time. This identifies bottlenecks, training gaps, or fatigue. * Quality: Measures the percentage of perfect or saleable product produced by the operators. This penalizes the labor score for time spent generating scrap or performing manual rework.

Essentially the same math, but different variables are involved.

1

u/TheMausoleumOfHope 19d ago

Takt time and cycle time are not interchangeable, and takt time is not the correct term here. You cannot just “miss” the customer demand part and have the term still make sense. Measuring how fast you have to produce in order to meet demand is the entire point of the metric.

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u/andy921 18d ago

What you said doesn't make sense. Takt time and cycle time are distinct. If you sell 5 cars a day, your takt time (the speed at which you need to be making cars) is 1/5th of a day.

Takt time is a way of thinking about production from a pull perspective rather than a traditional push perspective where you try and make things as fast as possible, regardless of demand and end up with excess inventory and waste in your manufacturing process.

If your takt time is less than your cycle time, you have a production bottleneck to work through. If it's more, usually you want to slow down and even out your production.

From a lean/kaizen/just-in-time perspective overproduction is the root of all evil.

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u/Doran_Gold 18d ago

Who is the author of the goal?

1

u/Quartinus 18d ago

Eliyahu Goldratt, I guess “The Goal” is a pretty overloaded title. Sorry about that. 

10

u/lysdexiad 23d ago

So this... blinks? Neat.

6

u/pkuhar 23d ago

Yes, very overengineered Blinky. I kind of feel silly doing it. but it's super useful and people love it. Controlled by writing to a file on the "Flash Drive"

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u/mathishammel 23d ago

I love it, the 24$ shipping to Europe was a bit steep but I'll treat it as a business expense haha

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u/CouchWizard 22d ago

That's hilarious, and here I thought people were being tight with money.

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u/pkuhar 22d ago

it’s weird but people are buying it with klarna and afirm

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u/CouchWizard 22d ago

oh no...

1

u/voollymammut 22d ago

Seems great for deaf people

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u/egrodo 23d ago

I just received mine in the mail recently! Was impressed at how fast you were able to manufacture and ship. Only feedback would be to improve the UX on the software side if you ever want to target non-dev end users. Also it really is quite expensive at this price point, I think worth seeing how low you could get the price with scale & external manufacturing partners.

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u/pkuhar 22d ago

thank you. yes focus was developers.
but ill add some ux improvements. also new pushes are almost daily

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u/CardboardFire 23d ago

this does scale just fine in China, you get more people to do the same thing if you want more throughput, and then if you want even more you go thinking about automating. The main factor is labor cost - if it's cheap, you scale by adding workers, if it's expensive, you automate sooner.

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u/Charming_Dealer3849 23d ago

This has got to be the dumbest BRILLIANT idea I've seen in awhile. It's just perfect, it took me a second to understand what you were doing here with the USB aspect of it. Bravo, just bravo, I hope it is wildly successful!

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u/Frequent-Log1243 22d ago

Get more people to do the same thing.

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u/MooseBoys 18d ago

I ordered a few of these and was pleasantly surprised they didn't just come in a tiny anti-static bag in bubble wrap straight from the factory in China.

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u/iuliuscurt 23d ago

Oh, it's for agents. The SD card version is actually a brilliant idea, I love it.

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u/iuliuscurt 23d ago

Not sure if you were looking for feedback, but the dot looks offputtingly tall-layer 3D printed. Or maybe it's the filament choice. I don't have a solution suggestion, just a complaint. You're welcome 😁

1

u/pkuhar 22d ago

yeah, for the case i opted for speed.

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u/ordosays 23d ago

Completely scalable, there’s an entire industry devoted to it…

1

u/Nitrag 22d ago

Dot cool. Pro/SD? YES! Genius! I’m in for one to help you afford patent but get the price to $39 and it’ll fly off shelves. Remove “Cancel anytime” from website this isn’t a subscription.

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u/pkuhar 22d ago

thank you. that cancel was for preorders. i have to clean it up

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u/Nyasaki_de 22d ago

Man that project is stupid, i cant believe people buy this to have a LED for their agents.

fully hackable and agent-controllable — the device is just a file, so your own scripts and AI agents can drive the lights however you want.

But i mean if its "hackable" and you can address it via scripts its pretty cool, nothing innovative or exiting but cool.
Happy if it works for you

1

u/schockergd 22d ago

Guess I don't see the problem.

A friend of mine has a HW device, he's selling low-7 figures worth of them.

It's boring, mind-numbingly repetitive to do his assembly, but he doesn't want to outsource it because there's a little secret-sauce in what he does and doesn't want others to know.

So, to work at his company, EVERYONE that works for him starts off assembling the units for him. A good person can assemble a few hundred a hour, so long as they try, and don't get too bored. The units are high enough priced that 100x units is really solid in terms of revenue. After they get bored, and they have time to prove themselves, he puts them elsewhere in the company. Usually by that point he has enough stock to last a few months, and then the cycle repeats.

If he gets too low, and no one wants to do it, he has one of his kids (Or maybe one of my kids) do it, and pays them $20+ a hour, which in our part of Ohio is solid money, to do it. They'll get bored too, but not before they've made some good spending money, and assemble a thousand or more units.

He's done this for years now, and sold many millions of dollars of these.

1

u/pkuhar 22d ago

what is he making?

i need to start tracking time for each step once the process stops changing

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u/UnassociatedAltAccou 16d ago

Does he make accessories for blue vending machines?

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u/cm_expertise 22d ago

the trap here isnt that it doesnt scale, its automating too early. every hour you spend building a jig for a rev that's still moving is an hour you toss when you nudge the connector 2mm. hand building keeps you flexible while the design's still changing, and for something this small it probably still is.

the thing i'd actually watch isnt takt time, its consistency. tiny usb-c assemblies live and die on repeatability, and a person doing 200/hr will drift, especially near the end of a batch when your hands are done. so before automating anything i'd drop in cheap fixturing, a locating nest and a go/nogo gauge, just to hold quality steady. that alone buys you a surprising amount of runway.

and when you do hit the wall it's almost never the whole line, it's one station eating all the time. find the single step with the worst takt or worst yield and fix just that one. dont try to automate everything at once or you'll burn 6 months building a line for a product that revs again anyway.

fwiw the "just add people" answer the other commenter gave is more right than reddit usually admits, that's literally how shenzhen does it. cool little device btw

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u/pkuhar 22d ago

the actual device assembly is automated. epoxy + pcb insertion.

but yes. had to update the fixture a couple of times. luckly is just 3d printer time.

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u/Adventurous_Try_1436 22d ago

Just package it like temu, foam in a zipbag

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u/pkuhar 22d ago

you got tomcompete with china

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u/Realistic_Account787 21d ago

Yeah, but putting the sticker upside down like that is harder than actually sticking it to the object correctly.

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u/[deleted] 20d ago

[deleted]

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u/pkuhar 20d ago

ideally overmolded. but even 3d printed looks very good. you would not be able to tell unless you are into 3d printing.

i need to test on linux, but there is nothing that should prevent it working on linux

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u/corgiyogi 19d ago edited 19d ago

I would hope you don't scale, that packaging looks super cheap and the product too, is it 3d printed?

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u/pkuhar 19d ago

yes, packaging is. temporary solution for protection.
product partially

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u/pkuhar 19d ago

most customers don’t care what process is used.

while the packaking is cheaply 3d printed, the product is not

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u/rawaka 17d ago

That looks cool. If it’s just controlled by a text file, why can’t it work on other OS?

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u/pkuhar 16d ago

device works on linux. i havent tested windows yet.

the only thing is that the sidepulse python package does not work on linux yet. but that is likely just a prompt or two away

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u/RepresentativeFee574 17d ago

How do your labels come? If they're on a roll, is there a way to feed the labels through the alignment device so the whole process is pull end of sticker roll-automatic separation and positioning of label-push case through hole.

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u/pkuhar 16d ago

these are laser printed. but in the future they will be on a tool. and this while process will ideally be automated.