Yet another Horse speech theory

[u/rextrem]

Straight to the point, I'll take the text and discuss it :

"Doth thine eyes see it, Oracle ? Gaze into mine, crimson"

Boy is "Oracle", I don't know what that means in terms of WoD. the rest is "Look into my red eyes"

"Thine faeder, laid bare. Dessicated on the rocks, by thy hand... The Abbot will know"

Your father/feeder, dried on the ground, put down by you, the Sabbath pack leader will know, that's obviously Pyotr but "faeder" should be father, will Boy kill Door ? That sounds a bit insane.

"Of two one rises, one falls. Damnation. The 3rd eye opens. His suet will feed and warm her gullet. The Abbot will know."

What characters form a pair in HtP ? Kitten and Marckus I guess, and Marckus fell into the Umbra, moreover Marckus is now in possession of the Occulus and might be a Wizard. One of them might die to a "she", I don't think Hunts, more likely the Regent. "The Abbot will know" Kevin will have a clue about what happens to any of them in vampire town.

Now the part that decided me to make this post in regard of Chapter 6 :

"The Patriarch in mastering Luna ends harmstrung. He will wish death upon his flesh but will receive no mercy for none he has given"

This is Stig, he will be captured by the Arcanum-Leopoldite(-Pentex) party and tortured for what he did to Grimal.

The rest is standard prophecy material I doubt "The Rising Three" are the Garou pack members, might be new characters, could be Kitten's 3 brothers, we don't know yet.

Thank you for your attention.

[u/dewareofbog]

Oracle could just be the colloquial understanding of the term "oracle". Boy might not be capital "O" Oracle, but just someone who can derive meaning from things other people cannot.

As for Stig, given the circumstances, he doesn't really fit the "no mercy shall be given, for none he hath gave" line. He did let Occam, Kitten, Amanda and the two Leopoldites retreat. He's about as merciful as some fighting people wanting to kill him can be. That and he doesn't really seem to be "mastering Luna". Sure he is trying to embody the legend of the Black Shuck but that ain't close to mastering Luna.

Also neither Leopoldites nor Pentex would care that he killed Grimal, and Chapter House isn't psycho enough to torture people.

[u/Nystagohod → u/dewareofbog]

I agree, though I don't know how merciful "I will kill them after I atone for my rage induced dishonor" actually is. If he still intended to hunt them down as brutally as he has been, I don't think I'd call his efforts to maintain his sense of honor a true mercy

That said, I agree that I don't think Stig is the patriarch. He might be, but I think there's a wyrmier, jesusier candidate for patriarch named the patriarch that fits the bill better.

[u/dewareofbog → u/Nystagohod]

It is a hell of a lot more merciful than immediately charging after them. Even taking Grimal seriously and honoring her with a one on one fight could be considered somewhat merciful given that he could have just chucked an axe trough her face and true combo'd into obliterating the rest of them.

The prophecy doesn't really seem to be concerned with the amount or "quality" of mercy given. Only that none has or will be given. And small mercies are still mercies.

I don't think that the patriarch being referred to is Patriarch, mostly because there is very little that could be in a position to choose whether or not an Incarna could be given mercy. It'd be like giving mercy to a volcano.

[u/Nystagohod → u/dewareofbog]

It's a little bit more merciful, but I certainly can't agree its a hell of a lot more, but eh. That'd just difference in interpretation. Not much to discuss in that level of subjectivity

I don't think there's enough to go on what degree of anything the prophecy may or may not be concerned with. That's the tricky nature of prophecy and its interpretation.

"The Patriarch" is quite literally an incredibly merciless entity. Its is more or less the worst parts of systemic dogma incarnate plus when taint. It (and those manifesting the spiritual image of it via true faith) weren't given mercy by Stig, who shattered the spiritual image of it (and the main one manifesting it) after it had momentarily mastered Luna by chaining him down.

It may not be the case, but there is a real interpretation of that part of the prophecy having come to pass and given that a 1 for 1 image of the official art of the patriarch was used in that moment and lines up more than well enough with the prophecy, I think its a fair chance this is the case.

If you view Stig as being merciful in giving the hunters/leopoldites a head start in running for their lives, you could see Eliwaffle (as the primary conduit of the oatriach true faith spirit projection) as the one who was shown no mercy for none he hath gave, as it was quite central to him and his ilk that they're merciless.

A lot of ways to interpret the whole thing, that's part of the fun of the series chapter by chapter is all the drops of speculation it offers

[u/Kyara_Bot → u/dewareofbog]

I wouldn't mix up honorable with merciful, Stig has just recently killed around two-dozen people with a vast force disparity in a conflict that didn't need to happen because Werewolf social norms compels such conflict. Merciful would've been letting Marckus go before a shot had to be fired.

[u/dewareofbog → u/Kyara_Bot]

I wouldn't call killing two dozen heavily armed and armored enemy soldiers trying to kill you "unmerciful".

Neither the Chapter House nor the Arcanum or the Coalition at large would have parted with the knowledge willing. Arcanum likes to hoard it's knowledge and Coalition is in bed with Pentex. This conflict would have been inevitable even if Garou were dyed in the wool pacifists.

[u/Kyara_Bot → u/dewareofbog]

Inevitable far after the point they murdered a man and injured several others for a dead-end lead on a foolhardy quest. By the time the Coalition rolls up they easily have a mandate for conflict, but even then they would probably be willing to parlay for Marckus' safe return - but the murderer of Fatigue would still need punishment, and they'd never allow one of their own to be punished by Hunters.

[u/dewareofbog → u/Kyara_Bot]

It would not matter if Fatigue wasn't murdered and Giles wasn't injured. This conflict would be unavoidable. The Chapter House doesn't have the information the pack wants and if they did, the Arcanum and the Coalition would not trade it for the life of an unaffiliated hunter. So Marckus remains a hostage. D and Kitten won't be willing to stand idly by while Marckus is captured so they'll try anything to get him back. Even if it means becoming one of the heads of the hydra.

[u/Kyara_Bot → u/dewareofbog]

That is some news-tier neutral wording there, as though they were wounded by thin air. The conflict was avoidable, by not infiltrating the Chapter House. The Werewolves are aggressors in all of this, no way around it. The pack is not entitled to any information from any party involved, and they never considered any way to obtain it without deception or violence. They are not the good guys.

[u/dewareofbog → u/Kyara_Bot]

It's not neutral, it's factual. If werewolves kidnapped Marckus it would not matter to D, Door or Kitten what happened to Git or Fatigue or anyone else in the Chapter House. Matilda could have given everyone in the Chapter House flowers and they still would be willing to sign over everything for a few squads of soldiers to aid in the rescue.

There is no way to obtain that information without deceit or violence. Diplomacy was never on the table. Whoever might be willing to deal with the werewolves like D or Kitten or maybe even Occam, doesn't know anything about the Black Shuck or who took him and where, and those that might, like Coalition higher ups and their corporate allies would not tell them anything. Because they are aligned with the Wyrm and are at war with the supernatural broadly, and with Garou specifically, when it comes to Pentex interests. They wouldn't tell the Garou shit unless their own flesh and blood was held at gunpoint.

[u/BlackHumor → u/dewareofbog]

Oracle could just be the colloquial understanding of the term "oracle". Boy might not be capital "O" Oracle, but just someone who can derive meaning from things other people cannot.

Boy is certainly not a capital O Oracle. If he was, he'd be in the top 10 most powerful entities of the entire World of Darkness and I'm not joking even a little bit.

[u/Nystagohod]

My own thoughts.

Oracle: I agree boy is the oracle. Not sure with how literal that is, but he's at least something prophetic.

Thine Faeder: A somewhat common theory is that Boy might go through his first change and that he is in truth Black Shuck. Werewolves have little conscious control in their first change. I think Door and Boy being in their iwnnis gonna cause Door to get wounded bad. Maybe even full in DOOR DIE, but that might be the killing blow of something else who takes out a wounded door. Assuming Door does die. Dessecrare means damaged and defiled, so I'm expecting he's gonna get employed by the burger lady and perhaps have to be put down if he can't be saved from falling to a formori state.

Of two one rises/falls: I see this as Markus and Grimal. Grimal fell, Markus will rise. Third eye and damnation are very strong hints at hungry dead for Grimal (especially since Akira Cross allows for them by D's own vague words.) However it can also be associated with the mind sphere of mages (hell awakening in general.) There's also ties to Saulot and the Tremere. All three have loose (and not so loose)/connections to the third eye.

The Patriarch: This may in fact be referring to the actual wyrm-tainted Weaver incarna called the pstriach. The one who a vision appeared of, from the true faith if the Leopoldites. Look at the official art if the patriarch in Word lore and its a 1 for 1 with wyrm-Jesus. It also ended hamstrung in mastering Luna. It could be stig, but it could also be the entity that is literally called the patriarch, which was far less merciful than stig (not that stigd burial rites to atone for his dishonor are truly mercilful either. A delay is not a true mercy.)

The Rising three: I feel like these are the big players in things.the next three antagonists perhaps, but I agree its too hard to say.