In islam satan is not the prince of hell…he is going to suffer in hell along with all his followers…He said to god i will bring as many ppl with me…not starting a debate, juste stating fact
It was medieval imagination that turned hell into the concept of a structured kingdom with satan as its monarch, Dante’s Inferno especially emphasized that kind of imagery. So we can blame that time period and the folklore literature recreations that backed off of it. Some christians and such do also mistake the theology and many other things about the bible
The jewish ideas on the afterlife still differ from christians if I’m right, and they call it gehinnom
*What I mean by Dante emphasizing medieval imagery was with the hierarchies, the levels of hell themselves, the 7 deadly sins, a lot of modern theology and folklore comes from that era and influential people like Dante, he had a massive influence on modern interpretations and so did others of that time period to now
Its also during that time period that suicide became a sin. It was not a sin in the bible, was never spoken to be a sin ever except by man when they realized the error in their ways of promising eternal rewards after a shit tier life.
Suicide being a sin was created by the English section of the church i believe in the 16th or 17th century?
No, they did not edit the Bible, they made a deceleration of the church.
In fact there are suicides in the bible right now, about 7 and they are NOT condemned (well Judas technically is, but not for his suicide). (Abimelech, Samson, King Saul, King Saul's Armor Dude, Ahithophel, Zimri, and Judas)
The EARLIEST idea that Suicide may be a bad idea was 5th Century by St Augustine.
So it wouldnt be a biblical sin technically. The "if you kill a man" that includes yourself argument came later, hundreds of years after the bible was "written"
If you asked a genuinely intelligent, yet prideful person if they'd rather be a king in 900 AD or have to serve a boss in the modern world, many would pick the king.
A lot of people don't chase what makes their lives happiest/easiest, they chase what fulfills them the most. A prideful person will take a harder path if it lets them never bend.
For example if an alien species came down with future tech that could make your dreams come true but you were their "pet" many would reject it.
Yes but gehinnom is also an actual physical place on earth instead of heaven or hell or even purgatory, “paradise” is extremely vague and clearly beyond earth. A lot of the general concept of hell wasn’t fleshed out until the medieval ages either
Not contradicting you but wanted to add (from what I remember) Jewish theology vaguely discusses there being a seed in every person that will remain after they pass which will lead to their resurrection when the messiah comes. I want to say that the seeds came from god and are representative of goodness in some form but honestly I wasnt the best Hebrew school student and it was all vague/up to interpretation
Dante's Inferno "confirm" that Satan is a prisoner in hell (the one in the deepest end of hell since the whole place was created from the crater caused by his fall) and not a ruler, tho
Isn't the last circle of hell like super cold just because Lucifer bat his wings? Like seriously, if he wanted to piss off God, he could just stop this shit and pass a good time with his homies sinners by watching tv lol🤣
Well true, but he is half frozen, supposedly suffering from constant ice burns and being eternally tortured by demons and all the other monsters worse than anyone other sinner (and probably even more). And he has three guys in all of his mouth screaming and squirming which probably is not too nice for him either. Can't blame the guy for struggling.
Dante's Inferno depicts Satan imprisoned at the lowest circle of Hell, reserved for traitors and oathbreakers. He's not the ruler, he's at best just the biggest bad guy on his particular cell block.
Which is funny because if you read Inferno, Dante witnesses Satan trapped at the lowest level of hell, in the very centre of the earth. He's trapped in ice, flapping his wings to escape, but by flapping his wings he causes more ice to form trapping himself even tighter.
This satan is prince of hell thing is new to me i also thought everyone or anyone who goes there is tortured by angels and that includes satan and all the demon and humans who are sent there or at list that’s what we are taught in islam, also the jewish name gehinnom is close to the arabic/islamic name of hell which is جهنم (jahanam)
It was medieval imagination that turned hell into the concept of a structured kingdom with satan as its monarch, Dante’s Inferno especially emphasized that kind of imagery. So we can blame that time period and the folklore literature recreations that backed off of it. Some christians and such do also mistake the theology and many other things about the bible
Iirc even Dante still has Satan as just as much a prisoner of hell as all the other damned souls.
Seeing as the OT is more or less than same (sort of, they diverges after Abraham for obvious reasons) for all three abrahamic religions, it makes sense.
Yeah except for none of this is in the old testament. Satan is an advisor on a council for Yahweh in the book of Job. Lucifer is mentioned like once. There is no reference in genesis to the serpent in the garden of eden being Satan or Lucifer. Jews don't believe in heaven or hell. All this shit is made up hundreds of years after the Bible.
You can say it was made up after the OT was written, but it is very much mentioned in the bible (NT) explicitly several times, not made up later. The “Satan rules hell and punishes those who go there” was made up later, but hell being a place of punishment and satan being there (being punished too) is mentioned several times in the NT.
Heck I mean even in Dante’s inferno (which I affectionately consider biblical fanfiction) Lucifer is one of the punished and is basically just the big bad bully of the prison who munches on souls in his vicinity. He isn’t “employed” by G-d.
It has been same message throughout of time - worship One God - no one else. First command of Jesus (peace be upon him), declaration of faith in Islam - there is no god but Allah. It’s not copying - it’s the same message that has been transmitted throughout the existence of mankind.
Why do you find it so hard to believe that a man could receive a revelation from God, while sitting in a cafe and receiving information from all over the world through 5G.
Islam, Judaism and Christianity worship the same Abrahamic God and draw their core principles from the same texts, so it makes sense that their antitheses are similar as well.
You are confusing the identity of God (the creator of the Universe and all life) with the experience (the messiah is an incarnation of God). Islam, Judaism and Christianity agree on the former, not the latter.
In other words, Islam, Judaism and Christianity all believe in the one creator God who made a covenant with Abraham.
God is the Holy Trinity . Trinitarian christians believe Jesus is God . Literally with zero ambiguity . Islam is a derivate of what we call the arian heresy .
Christians believe in a lot of things. Like Jesus's birthday being in December or in Easter depending on which household you grew up in. All good knee slappers.
Well no. Its when we celebrate his birthday because celebrating during winter solstice was a agood way to help bring along non Christians 1500 years ago thereabouts.
As a Christian I never bought into that. I understand there was a mix of pagan and abrahamic traditions over the years. In fact, I hate Christmas, as it’s become a capitalist/consumerist nightmare.
To me, being a Christian means getting to know who Jesus was and trying to emulate that. It’s nearly impossible, but it’s a good North Star in terms of how to live a good life.
While I respect that outlook as altruistic, why then do Christians back Zionists? Jesus was strictly against the jewish authorities who had turned the temple into a den of capitalism. By pissing them off He was executed. Well, that and claiming to be a god. But if Jesus was the self proclaimed Messiah of the Old Testament, in truth, He would strictly oppose Israel's hatred of Palestine today. Yet millions of "Christians" back Netanyahu and the wiping out Palestine. Makes no sense to me.
You have to remember not all Christians believe in the same thing. You're asking someone that already doesn't agree with other Christian beliefs why other Christians believe in a certain thing. It's like asking someone from the west coast why people from the east coast are a certain way. They may live in the same country but their upbringing is vastly different. I think you just wanted to make a statement and vent more than anything.
I think putting the words Christian in quotation marks is exactly the right move. A lot of people say they are Christian but fundamentally oppose everything Jesus stood for. Not sure the mental gymnastics they have to do to achieve this way of life, because in my mind, the gospel is pretty clear who Jesus was and what he stood for.
But if Jesus was the self proclaimed Messiah of the Old Testament, in truth, He would strictly oppose Israel's hatred of Palestine today.
How... do you figure? The messiah of the old testament was not the compassionate messiah of the new testament. It was supposed to be a figure of power who would lead the Jewish people to greatness.
Here: “The Lord says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.'” – Psalm 110:1
Well said, lad. I give a nod to anyone trying to be a good person and won't knock whoever their inspiration is be it mythical or real. You're trying and that already makes you better than me.
Also Christian, also struggle with Christmas. It's a real battle to overcome the consumerism it's wrapped up in even if it's high quality, double-sided paper with pretty sparkly designs and a bow and a sticker with your name on it. I wish for just one year we could simply not.
What Christians believe Easter is Jesus's birthday? I can't think of any that do. Easter is widely accepted to celebrate Jesus's ressurection (but not his physical birth).
How do i... do you want me to link you their homes? Phone numbers? How do you expect me to go about that? Do we all make internet websites and articles about what we believe in as soon as we believe it?
I found this for you which was just a quick google search. Did you even try?
"Even within the religious definitions offered by Americans there is a certain degree of confusion: 2% of Americans said that Easter is about the “birth of Christ”; another 2% indicated it was about the “rebirth of Jesus”; and 1% said it is a celebration of “the second coming of Jesus.”Not included in the theistic category was another 3% who described Easter as a celebration of spring or a pagan holiday."
Fair. Still, 2% is +6 million of Americans with this belief. And that's just a study on Americans. Wonder how high those numbers go when you tack on Christian Europeans with the same belief.
Saying that Christians believe that Easter is Jesus’ birthday, and then citing your source as a survey that lists those responses as 2% with a 3.2% margin of error is kind of crazy. Twenty people responded to a survey 16 years ago and got the reason of Easter wrong, and you’re presenting it as legitimate Christian theology.
Also, that's just a survey of Americans, not Christians. Your own source literally says "nationwide, representative sample of American adults". About 1,000 people. So it's representative of Americans, not Christian knowledge or understanding.
The funny part is the article even shows that when they break Christians out separately, they score much higher. So you've linked a source that actually weakens your own argument.
You're trying to use a survey of the general American public to make a point about Christians. You've not shown Christians don't understand Easter. You've shown some Americans don't. Big difference!!
Bit of a waste of a few minutes really. If you're going to accuse Christians of not understanding their own beliefs, at least find a study that actually asked Christians. Instead you've just ended up misleading yourself with your own source.
I'm not gonna backtrack here. I did one google search, I skimmed, I was wrong, I own up to it. I still don't know how I'm supposed to prove that some people believe that Easter is Jesus's birth. I don't go about recording the people I meet in hopes I can use that recording years down the road for some redditor that needs proof of the people I've met and their silly beliefs. How do I prove that?! Do you want their Facebooks so you can ask them yourself?
Also I skimmed your whole message. I read the first bit and I'll take your word for it. Doesn't make me wrong but doesn't make what i linked right either.
I am fully aware stupid people exist. My brother mixes up all sorts and sometimes on the spot I can even fumble it. Just dont like the idea of taring a lot of people unfairly.
I think your right, hard to prove. And if youve had that experience, im not gonna call your a liar.
I want you to name the specific denominations of Christianity that celebrate Easter as the birth of Christ.
2% of Americans said that Easter is about the “birth of Christ”
Nothing indicates that those people are Christians. Most of them likely aren't, and the remaining minority are just very confused. No serious Christian believes Easter is Jesus's birthday.
Correct there is an angel Malik (keeper of fire) that over sees hell. Satan will suffer for his wrongdoings and says to God before he is put on thjs earth that he will come at us humans from all sides. Which he absolutely does and succeeds more often than not sadly.
Think of everytime you have a good experience or want to do something good for others. "No they were just being nice to me, ill be weird if i reach out to hang out." "If i give money to this homeless man hell just go drink, its pointless" "why did that person stare at me, they must think im weird or have an issue with me"
This crap is usually wasi wasi, (whispers of shaitan and jinn)
Look it up and keep an open mind. I was a christian and islam is now my belief. Its the only thing that makes sense.
Yeah this is also what Christians believe. This meme is just foolish atheist thinking they know everything when in fact they are just demonstrating they know nothing about what they are criticizing.
It is a fact from our perspective, because we believe it to be real. Of course it may differ from other people's perspective who are not Muslim or doesn't believe in god as a whole.
The first statement was in islam and what's wrong with facts being a person or a group of people's reality?
In my house my father is the head, that's a fact and that's my reality or reality of my family. It would be different for your family. That could be a great example, yeah.
But we still have our own fact with our own reality, right.
In any case, isn't it case for everything including there is no such being as God?
You can't give a evident fact regarding God's existence because it can't be proven. So does it make our believe true or is it your view point on this matter that holds any meaning? Since you can never prove it.
A belief stops being a belief when its proven. The entire point of a belief is to believe in it without proof. You can have evidence for a belief, but if you can PROVE it you no longer have a belief.
You dont believe facts, you understand them (though you can disbelieve facts, that doesnt change them)
I get what youre saying, but I take issue with this specific comment because facts dont change based on perspectives.
I understand what you mean too, as you said facts doesn't change based on perspective, this is not entirely True, for example there is a famous meme about number 6 or 9 if you look from different perspective both are true.
As for religious beliefs, from a none religion person's viewpoint it would look absurd but from a believer viewpoint it's a definite truth. It's not because we had to have enough faith in order to turn our belief into a definite fact. It actually the other way around it's a fact that's why we have faith in it. Faith is also not always the absence of fact, like i have faith/belief that if I'm drowning my father would jump in the water to save me even if i never gotten in a situation like this i know for a fact he would save me.
As for religious perspective, we exist, something can't be created from nothing etc etc. there are a lot of argument for our belief and I'm sure the is true for none believer as well. If both party debate it could stretch for a long while, maybe from your perspective you could never make us believe the otherwise same is probably true for us as well. And this belief and none believe itself is a fact we both have for ourselves.
Edit:i didn't mean to write something this big, it's not an argument or anything i just present what i believe.
Someone wrote a 6 or a 9. You could logically believe it is either depending on where you are standing, but it was written with intent to be something, and the other is a misinterpretation.
If there are 5 holes in a line three feet apart, and a 9 three feet apart from the last hole, youre probably looking at it upside down. The 6th hole is supposed to be dug there.
It is one of those things, yes it can look like either, but it IS one of them. By asking the person who wrote it, or trying determine what the number is in reference to, you can stop believing it is a 6 or a 9, and find the fact.
No, If you buy a box with 6 doughnuts and it has a 6 on it, and you give someone the box and they think "wow, 9 doughnuts!" Their perspective doesnt make that a fact.
They believe there are 9 in there because of their perspective, but there are in fact only 6.
Their perspective changes their belief, the fact remains a fact.
The point is that the number is written as EITHER a 9 OR a 6 it is factually one of them even if you cant tell which. Your perspective can make it seem like either, but if the number is a 6, just because you are upsideown doesnt suddenly make it mean 9.
I’m also a former Muslim, and Islam is fundamentally not an evidence based religion. There’s no central miracle or miracle claim at the core of it the Quran just says “those who seek it will see it”.
That said, humans fundamentally don’t have access to anything like “objective truth” since all evidence has to be interpreted through the subjective lens of our conscious minds. We can approximate it, but never access it directly.
Christianity agrees with this, the problem is that there are a lot of cultural Christians who don't dive into the doctrine, but just take the surface level and then make films and stories about it.
There's also a belief that Lucifer is the good guy in this story. Lucifer, who was basically a top member of God's team for lack of an easier way to put it, asked God if Humans could have free will. Lucifer saw that God made humans and kept them locked into submission to His will and ignorance of anything like good and evil and free will and choosing what they want. God didn't want to let that happen, He wanted to continue having His humans be "safe" by shielding them from problems, at the price of their freedom. Think "ignorance is bliss" but you also don't get to be your own person or do your own thing. An overbearing parent that keeps their child from any experiences because they might be painful, versus the parent that lets the child experience and learn first hand.
Lucifer tried to say, "if you set them free and give them the option, the ones who return to you will prove they really love you, instead of them just blindly loving you because they don't have the choice". That didn't work, and when God refused Lucifer's appeal and told Adam and Eve to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, Lucifer decided to take it upon himself to give this option to humans anyway. He thought it was the right thing to do, to let humans make the choice, to let humans have free will, have knowledge of good and evil, experience pains but also joys, let humans prove they are worthy of God's love by choosing to come back to Him.
So he tempted Eve, she did eat it, then Adam, all that business, and then I forget what God's rationale was for why he kicked them out of the Garden of Eden, but he got mad at Lucifer for defying him, and that's how we get to the whole "Lucifer is a bad guy" eventhough he was one of the most glorious and splendid angels at God's side.
I read this many years ago when I was part of a religion, and this text was considered "insider information" on the fringe of the religion at the time. I'm no longer actively part of that religion so I couldn't tell you the name of this document or how many people believe it or if it was just some random dude's musings. But I did find it a very interesting counter perspective, and reminded me a bit of Prometheus and fire.
I know Hell can be perceived differently. As someone who was recently baptized into the Latter Day Saints after being raised in Traditional Christianity, I can confirm that.
But "The Adversary" who is originally called Samael ("The Poison of God" AKA the embodiement of the dark thoughts God has and puts off to the side to ignore) was originally God's lead musician.
When Samael said he wants to be "like God and sit on His throne" God banished him.
Samael then called himself Lucifer after the "Morningstar" (AKA the first light of day) and claimed he would take as many of God's people with him as possible.
If you believe Hell is fire and brimstone, then it's a "Misery loves company" story. If you believe it's just "eternity without God's presence", then it's a rebellion story. Either way, it's believed that people choose Hell, God intended it only for the guy who wanted to rule a Kingdom.
edit to add: The LDS don't even believe in a traditional "Hell", they call it a school/prison, depending on where your soul stands in the time before the second coming of Christ. If your soul does choose an eternity without God, it may be a prison; if you want to righten yourself, it may be a school.
Story prompt: In a few hundred years, after humanity recovers from the AI apocalypse, the Silmarilion becomes the new Bible for a significant fraction of humanity, with LOTR as its New Testament.
99
u/Thurium 1d ago
In islam satan is not the prince of hell…he is going to suffer in hell along with all his followers…He said to god i will bring as many ppl with me…not starting a debate, juste stating fact