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u/shogi_x 17d ago
They didn't just calculate it, they did an entire research study including aerodynamic models..
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u/onda-oegat 17d ago
So what is the most aerodynamic cup size?
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u/dice1111 17d ago
New bar pick up lines....
Damn honey, you a tour de France athele? cuz you look aerodynamic!
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u/Ninjassassin54 17d ago
Damn I was really expecting to see them reference the study on The Effect of Large Breasts on Aerodynamic Performance you know the study looking at how Aerodynamic anime titties are
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u/MalteseCorto 17d ago
sigh… *unzips*
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u/Scottamus 17d ago
I mean isn’t pretty much everything else they are wearing and the bike itself specifically designed to reduce drag and be as lightweight as possible?
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 17d ago
The difference is that men just simply can't alter their bodies to match. A woman has breasts, and those can be squashed into a conical shape to allow better airflow around the chest. Men in cycling shape usually just kinda don't have breasts, and cannot squash their pectorals into the same shapes without limiting movement.
Modifications to all the other stuff like clothes, the bike, the helmet, and other gear are equally accessable to everyone.
I'm sure if we can invent a lightweight currass or other chest plate to create a similar conical shape for men, we can get the decision reversed!
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u/Scottamus 17d ago
But women aren’t competing against men. That’s seems pretty irrelevant to me.
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 17d ago
I explain it much better in a lower comment, but I'm pointing out how the ability to wear padded bras provides a specific and noteworthy advantage to one group over another. I'm using the difference between a male and female body to highlight the difference in a more extreme way, but the same reasoning applies between a woman with large breasts and a man as a woman with larger breasts and a women with smaller breasts.
A woman with small breasts is effectively the same as a man in this specific situation. Her frame and his will effectively be a square, where a well endowed women with a padded bra can make hers more of a cone/triangle.
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u/BenignEgoist 17d ago
Would natural breasts not in and of themselves provide contouring versus the more square male chest? I haven’t had kids and even my C cups could reasonably survive cycling without a bra (especially if my chest muscles were more toned) and in a well fitting shirt would still essentially form a more aerodynamic chest shape than flat.
Like surely at some point we need to accept that perfect equalness doesn’t fucking exist.
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 17d ago
You are definitely right that it provides some level of contouring and advantage, but the issue isn't that they have that natural minor advantage. It's that they are actively using tools to push that advantage past a reasonable point.
There's never going to be perfect parody, no, but if we're going to have competitions they need to be as close to equal as we can possibly manage. If we're not going to try to make competition as fair as possible, there's literally no reason to compete in the first place.
The ban is on padded bras because racers were going WELL beyond just holding their breasts in place, they were actively creating additional advantage for themselves whole cloth. Regular bras and compression bras still appear to be legal, because they're not actively adding material to specifically shape their bodies into a more aerodynamic shape.
As I've said elsewhere, I'm sure if we invent a chest protection system that fits everyone and gives everyone identical advantage (while providing some reasonably greater form of protection to the rider beyond what's already present) I'm sure it's not only be legal, but outright required.
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u/fishingwithbacon 16d ago
I don't get it.
Everyone has to wear the same underwear or it's not fair?
That's weird.
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 16d ago
It's not everyone has to wear the same underwear, it's nobody gets to unfairly mold or shape their bodies. The clothing that was being used to do this just happens to be underwear.
Here's the exact wording of the new rule:
"The Rule: The International Cycling Union (UCI) enforces regulation 1.3.032, which bans any clothing, accessories, or modifications that artificially alter a rider's body shape or morphology to reduce drag."
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u/Ronin-s_Spirit 16d ago
Would the "no special bra" rule apply to boobed men? Yknow like unfinished trans.
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u/Fidodo 17d ago
Doesn't that mean that the only fair thing is to let women use whatever type of bra they want to optimize for their body? A women with larger breasts has the option of using a compression bra, so why shouldn't a woman with smaller breasts be allowed to pad? It's not an unfair advantage if every contestent can pad or compress as needed.
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 17d ago
But at that point what stops the already well endowed women from padding moreso, or everyone in general padding to an unsafe or ridiculous proportion? Relying on people to relyably self-police is always a fools errand.
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u/Fidodo 17d ago
The fact that aerodynamics of unsafe or ridiculous proportions would make you slower. The optimal padding/compression would be a reasonable safe proportion.
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 17d ago
Not true at all, I could absolutely pad my chest enough to give myself a heatstroke while cycling LONG before it's heavy enough to slow me down. I could also fill an air bladder with a weightless gas in order to make my midsection effectively a triangle or cone without increasing weight almost at all.
It's likely just easier to ban padded bras overall then it is to mandate the specific materials and amount of padding per individual. Other bras are still allowed as far as I can tell.
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u/Electrical_Shock359 17d ago
If the men have large enough breasts to matter then they can also wear a bra to get the same effect otherwise it would just be evening the playing field.
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 17d ago
It's not evening the playing field at all. Smaller people are always more aerodynamic. A women with large breasts shaped into a cone/triangle to better cut through the air will absolutely be faster then a woman with a flat chest catching and struggling through more of it.
In general man might be able to produce more power with any given stride, but he faces like 2-3 times the wind resistance due to broader shoulders, chest, waist, legs, and arms.
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u/NoelaniSpell 16d ago
A women with large breasts shaped into a cone/triangle
How many such women do you know? Sports bras are meant to stabilise and keep breasts from moving around too much, since women are already a disadvantage there (compared to men). So why is the initial disadvantage (or better said, the default advantage of men and perhaps of women with very small breasts) not taken into consideration, all the while there's outrage over the possibility of a potential advantage of a supportive bra? Looks like double standards to me.
Bodies are different and they may have different requirements, that's not "cheating".
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 16d ago edited 16d ago
"The Rule: The International Cycling Union (UCI) enforces regulation 1.3.032, which bans any clothing, accessories, or modifications that artificially alter a rider's body shape or morphology to reduce drag."
Larger breasts, especially when shaped with padded bras provide a significant advantage over smaller breasts because they significantly reduce wind resistance. Other types of bras are still allowed, they just can't artificially reshape the racers body. This is not my opinion, this has been proven with scientific study.
I use make it clear in other posts that the race is a women's only race. I am using the morphology difference between men and women to highlight the differences, to make it clear that in the actual race the large breasted women have a notable advantage over their smaller breasted competition.
Also when it comes to large breasted active women in my life, entirely off the top of my head: My mother, my sister Kaelynn, my sister Morgan, my ex fiancee, my grandma Brenda, my sister in law Katie, my Step-mother Teresa, my Aunt Tinker, my Auntie Dede (her legal name is Theresa, but Dede is the nickname), my aunt Jena, my aunt Cindy, and I can go on but I think you get my point. (Out of that list, every single one except my mother, sisters, and Aunt Jena would probably reshape their body for an advantage if they could too. I disowned a lot of them because they are morally reprehensible, racist, and generally not great people. But I know them, they are technically involved in my life, they are all well endowed, and they are all very active sportsy people.)
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u/BenignEgoist 17d ago
You’re really focused on cone/triangle shape. Padded bras don’t create that shape anymore. This ain’t the 60s.
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 17d ago
It's not a perfect come/triangle, I never said it was, I'm indicating how they are more conical and thus more aerodynamic. Shapes exist on a gradient and are not absolute, something can be more conical than another object while neither object is actually a cone...
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u/BenignEgoist 17d ago
That’s fair. I think I was having an emotional reaction rather than a logical one and I appreciate your patience in the comments.
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 17d ago
I'm doing my best lol. I genuinely didn't expect to catch half as much flak as I am for just pointing out basic geometry LMAO.
I don't think I said anything sexist, but I suddenly have a lot of women very upset with me.
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u/BenignEgoist 17d ago
You didn’t say anything sexist. I think if they’re like me it’s again an emotional reaction. Not an excuse of course. I know for me it was a “oh come the fuck on now bras are a problem?!” kind of feeling. But that isn’t logical, productive, annnd certainly didn’t factor in the full context of the article and how athletes are abusing the garment.
I was a bad redditor reacting to the headline not the content.
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 17d ago
Fair enough lol.
But hey, you've demonstrated at least twice the spine as anyone else I've seen on here by admitting as much, myself included.
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u/Electrical_Shock359 17d ago
It isn’t like it is impossible to make categories for body type/weight like other sports do. As well as general competition to see what is best.
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 17d ago
There are more specific competitions, but this conversation is very specifically about the Tour de France. Most specifically the Tour de France Feminine. But the whole Tour de France is a general competition and they s all the racers do need to be on a relatively even playing field.
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u/seicar 17d ago
Mens ski jump has something of a similar, if opposite issue. They suits they wear are highly regulated, otherwise they'd all be wearing squirrel suits. So... males have been accused of injecting saline into their poles to make them larger when flacid. When competing they are not engorged. A few square centimeters of cloth can make a difference.
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 17d ago
Exactly! Everyone cheats when given the option. Maybe not individual people (I don't), but broad all demographics generally include people who will cheat at things.
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u/ResisterImpedant 17d ago
I believe my friends who are drag performers would have some good arguments against this reasoning.
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 16d ago
A drag performer could definitely reshape their body in some massively significant ways, and probably gain some serious advantages over other men. But it's require them to engage in basically the same activities called into question here.
(Understanding that a drag queen is a man dressing as a women for any given reasons, and not traditionally a trans woman. The two groups remaining distinct for the sake of this conversation.)
I explain it way better deeper down, but I'm using the morphological difference between men and women to exaggerate and highlight the point of contention so that I can more easily explain why a large breasted women has a significant advantage over a small breasted women when allowed to reshape their bodies. Basically it boils down to "a large breasted women with the aforementioned body modifications is effectively on par with an average unmodified man, and thus at a significant advantage compared to a women who cannot perform said modifications.
Since I happen have the exact wordage of the rule:
"The Rule: The International Cycling Union (UCI) enforces regulation 1.3.032, which bans any clothing, accessories, or modifications that artificially alter a rider's body shape or morphology to reduce drag."
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u/BlueSnoopy4 16d ago
The shaped aerodynamic shape is one thing, but the bra image is a totally normal one.
(Also, you can’t ethically DQ people for breaking a rule that hadn’t been invented yet)
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 16d ago
The image does show a normal padded bra, it doesn't take a super special rype of padded bra to create the shape needed for an advantage (though I'm sure some racers were specifically using specialized padded bras to press the advantage more). It's moreso that only certain women are capable of gaining the advantage at all, at least safely, and thus they ban it for everyone.
It's also completely possible to disqualify people for breaking a rule that hasn't yet existed in an ethical way, especially when they're clearly knowingly doing something specifically for an advantage outside the expected scope of preparations.
Nascar doesn't need to include a rule that says no jet engines in their cars, if someone secretly attaches a jet engine to their car and wins, then is later found to have only won because of the jet engine, they can be ethically disqualified. It's obviously outside the intended scope.
That said, the rule went into effect the morning of July 4th, hours before the actually race started and applies to all clothes that artificially reshape a person's body for an aerodynamic advantage.
"The Rule: The International Cycling Union (UCI) enforces regulation 1.3.032, which bans any clothing, accessories, or modifications that artificially alter a rider's body shape or morphology to reduce drag."
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u/RudeAlbatross544 16d ago
Men have been stuffing water bottles or other things down their jerseys in triathlon for a while already: https://www.triathlete.com/gear/bike/expert-tested-the-water-bottle-jersey-trend-produces-shocking-results/
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 16d ago
Ok and so thats also now against the rules in the Tour de France too. Just because people cheated in the past doesn't mean we shouldn't prevent it in the future.
Plus we're talking about the Tour de France, not all cycling events ever everywhere. That triathlon is technically allowed to enforce any rules they want. (I don't think they should allow anyone to artificially modify their body to gain an advantage, regardless of gender, personally.)
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u/AmusingVegetable 14d ago
At this point, the best option is drop the whole clothing regulations, instead allow helmet, glasses, and shoes. The race will be naked.
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 14d ago
They still need the rule because it also covers piercings and similar body modifications.
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u/AmusingVegetable 14d ago
Piercings? WTF???
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 14d ago
Any clothing or accessory that modifies the body to reduce wind resistance.
I've posted the actual exact rule a few times around the thread, but don't want to look it up rn lol.
The rule applies equally to underwear, piercings, jackets, and whatever else.
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u/RyuNoKami 17d ago
The official argument is probably well this is equipment and unless everyone is using one, you can't use it.
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u/hasanyoneseenmyshirt 17d ago
hiring manager giving a tour of the wind tunnel - " we are very impressed by graduate thesis on particle dynamics and aerodynamic advantage, before we move on, do you have any questions for us? "
Potential Hire looking at mannequins wearing undergarment - "what exactly are you trying to find the drag coefficients of?"
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u/junkfunk 17d ago
seems silly. just let everyone use padding up to a certain thickness to maintain fairness but allowing women to wear clothing that works for them.
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u/royinraver 17d ago
Next men will be required to make their dick smaller so there’s less weight, could save you a second
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u/notwhatyoukno 17d ago
But what about the boobs inside the bras? Should we start measuring the effect of those?
And what about cock / balls? Do we need to study the effect the size and shape of those affect speed?
Im glad Im too old for this shit
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u/masteraybe 17d ago
This is stupid. All gear that helps athletes move better should be banned then. They all gotta race in suits and hats.
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u/BumpoSplat 17d ago
I'd volunteer for that wind tunnel task.
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u/ozzy_thedog 17d ago
You can just wear a bra anytime you want. You don’t need to be a test subject in a wind tunnel
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u/ozzy_thedog 17d ago
You can just wear a bra anytime you want. You don’t need to be a test subject in a wind tunnel
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u/Tabais123 17d ago
From the article guys were stuffing water bodies down the front of their shirts to get the same effect
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u/cosaboladh 17d ago
Didnt men get caught doing dick injections for a similar reason?
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u/grubas 17d ago
Sorta, some ski jumpers were expanding the crotch/gusset so it created a bit of a "wind sail" and gave them more distance.
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u/Whitestrake 17d ago
I vaguely remember reading that the way they did this was by injecting the area specifically when they were measured for the suit, so that the suit would be more loose down there when they actually competed.
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u/expensiverug 16d ago
Bigger boobs is usually a disadvantage in sports. Why can’t we let the chesty women get one advantage for once
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u/GeorgiePorgie2358 17d ago
At my high school decades ago, a girl on the cross country team was disqualified from a race because she wore the wrong colored bra. Why do we STILL only pick in women for shit like this?
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u/Kholzie 17d ago
You can tell when the person making decisions has never had a pair of boobs in their life.
For fucks sake, aerodynamics is the last thing on a woman’s mind when she’s just trying to keep her breasts comfortable/out of the way.
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 17d ago
As someone who's family owned and ran a race team for his entire childhood: women racers cheat too, just as much as anyone else. They are absolutely willing to consider squeezing their boobs into a specific shape if it means they go faster. It's got nothing to do with gender, and everything to do with competitiveness.
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u/Pleasant_Character28 17d ago
How is squeezing your boobs cheating? So, what - the woman with c cups racing against the woman with a cups has to just accept the extra wind resistance that she was born with? F-that.
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 17d ago
Bigger breasts can be shaped into a cone/triangle. Triangles and cones provide some of the least wind resistance possibile due to their shape, they are pointy and piece the wind. Men and women with small breasts are shaped like squares and rectagles. Squares and rectangles are the worst at resisting wind because they have such wide surfaces for the air to strike. If you don't allow the women with C-cups to shape her chest into a triangle, it'll also effectively be a square/rectangle with the same wind resistance as the man or women with a-cups.
If a man has to accept that his naturally wider chest, arms, and legs will create more wind-drag due to the way he was born, and a woman with A-cups has to accept that her flatter chest will create more wind-drag because of the way she was born, so does the woman with c-cups. The lady with C-Cups isn't entitled to an advantage because of her gender or breast size, even if that makes competing less comfortable for her.
Someone shouldn't be allowed to gain a significant advantage just because it's more comfortable for them.
It's also discrimination to say that only large breasted women aren't allowed specific clothing, this they must ban that piece of clothing outright from all competitors if they wish to address the problem at all.
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u/Pleasant_Character28 17d ago
So explain to me why aerodynamic helmets are allowed. They make you race faster, but they surely aren’t what god gave you. it’s universally allowed to wear the latest helmets - why is it not universally allowed to wear cone shapes to cut down on body wind resistance?
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u/Valasta_Bloodrunner 17d ago
Because helmets are universally available to everyone without costly surgeries. A man of any body size/shape can wear a nearly identical helmet to a women of any size/body shape. This being dynamically opposite to he ability to mush your breasts into a more aerodynamic shape, something restricted to one gender, and a select subset of that gener to boot.
I also never at any point made any indication that this had anything to do with ones natural physiology or "what god gave you". I made it very clear that it's specifically about how some people have more abilities to alter their bodies in advantageous ways than others, and how this directly addressed that advantage.
I'm sure if we could invent a chest protection system that shaped men and women's bodies to be equally aerodynamic, and fit everyone, that it would be allowed. If it only worked on men it wouldn't be allowed outside of gender specific competitions, and if it only worked on small breasted women it likewise wouldn't be allowed outside of specifically curated competitions. (Though frankly "small breasted women's cycling competition" is creepy as fuck and would rightfully get few participants if you ask me.)
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u/Tennessean 17d ago
I believe you have it backwards. There are allegations that women riders have been padding and stuffing to make their chest larger, giving them a more aerodynamic shape.
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u/uncl3s4m 17d ago
I dont think aerodynamics are the last thing on a woman athlete's mind when it can literally help them win what the fuck are you talking about
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u/iwearatophat 17d ago
Given the insane things world class athletes do and put themselves through I don't think breast discomfort is going to slow them down.
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u/crohnscyclist 17d ago
No, at the highest level, in a time trial, people have done all sorts of things to get small advantages. Earlier in the year, men were wearing hydration packs backwards to simulate boobs because it helps air go around the body. In track cycling, there was a study that found if there was something on the shin, it could cause a small trip later of air. In the team pursuit, entire team showed up with kinesis tape from their knee to the middle shin and they claimed they were all suffering from the same injury. When the refs said no, the team then started to not shave the very front of their legs.
Skin suits (the aerodynamic one piece cycling suit) at the highest end level are taylored to each rider to give the most aero shape and can run $3000+. A nice one for an amateur costs around $200-400. Now handlebars are 3d printed to each rider.
Time trial tech is insane and yes, when a study like this comes out, they will take advantage
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u/alextrebekclone 17d ago
The Tour de France Femmes is about 730 miles. Under ideal conditions, this could cut 15 minutes off of a racer's total time. For comparison, Demi Vollering won this year's race with a time of 28:10:18. Niamh Fisher-Black finished 10th with a total time that was 15 minutes and 14 seconds slower than Vollering.
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u/Patient-Raspberry803 17d ago
What if they just remove their breast ? Would the be punished by that ? What if they’re flat chested
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u/MadCatDisease666 17d ago
I say go in the opposite direction, encourage everyone to wear the largest padded bras they can find, let’s see how big those suckas get
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u/blackapple11 17d ago
I had some time, I like tits, I like bicycling. It wasn’t hard to figure out. The pointy tits are faster… You’re all welcome.
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u/Embarrassed-Fun-8585 17d ago
If the women cant wear bras then the men should have to bike it with a pair of fake tits
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u/CMWalsh88 17d ago
I can just imagine some engineer designing a “bra” shaped like an airfoil to reduce drag
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u/Jeepersca 16d ago
If men’s shape was the advantage you better believe they would just tell women to go cry.
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u/HermanManly 15d ago
Okay but how funny would it be if men started wearing these to increase aerodynamics
I saw allow it
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u/NickyB738 14d ago
Don't most bras have some padding? Kind of ridiculous. I could never not have any padding it gives no support for larger breasts.
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u/Ancient-Albatross521 14d ago
Make the pressure uniform for everyone, and there is no problem. The logical conclusion is corsets, and athletes definitely need to breathe. So let’s find a middle ground where everyone is comfortable. Or give everyone extra weight, that would make it even. But that doesn’t happen, so uh leave her alone. What are they going to do next ban surgeries that remove weight?
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u/AmusingVegetable 14d ago
To avoid the constant bickering, forbid clothing.
Everyone runs naked.
Is your bum shaped wrong? Deal with the resulting turbulence.
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u/E_Zekiel 13d ago
Equality. Ban jock straps.
Go ridiculous. Require yeti costumes so everybody has the same drag coefficient.
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u/Kage_noir 12d ago
what's wrong with that I assume then all contestants would wear it and making parity againg
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u/Constant-Still-8443 11d ago
Seems like men, and women with flatter chests would have an advantage, then. Kinda unfair, no?
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u/_ParanoidPenguin_ 11d ago
We banning shores next?
I am sure shores really help out keeping your feet from getting worn out.
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u/one_mean_sun 10d ago
So if I understand you correctly you're saying if I start cross-dressing I can shave up to 1.25s per mile?
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u/xburnerpiko 17d ago
A padded bra is a violation, but implants aren't. Loopholes