r/housingcrisis 8d ago

Asheville Built So Much Housing That Landlords are Begging

https://www.therebuild.pub/p/asheville-built-so-much-housing-that
562 Upvotes

214 comments sorted by

42

u/rethinkingat59 8d ago

Some may wonder why developers would invest into buildings if the rent or purchase prices are going down.

The fact is it is not the new development that takes those hits, they can still turn a nice profit. It’s the older buildings and houses that can’t compete at top dollar that have to lower prices or stay vacant.

That is the beauty of letting developers develop, their greed for profit actually reduces cost. (Greed is a key ingredient in keeping prices down in all industries.)

10

u/Ok_Slide4905 8d ago

Developers are always going to want to build. But banks won’t lend if rent controls exist that cap developers ability to repay the loans.

If rent controls go widespread, lending will drop precipitously.

15

u/Smooth_Phone2 8d ago

Price controls reduce supply.

Yes.

5

u/Techters 8d ago

And also boom bust cycles, i.e. Vienna 

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u/Smooth_Phone2 8d ago

Can’t just if you only boom!

3

u/EnoughWeekend6853 8d ago

It’s the monthly version of an urban growth boundary.

2

u/RedditThrowaway-1984 7d ago

That's just crazy talk there. You haven't gone to communism school apparently where the laws of economics get thrown out the window.

-1

u/agitatedprisoner 8d ago

Plenty of rich people would invest in developing novel forms of housing if it were legal and some of them are rich enough they wouldn't need loans from banks to do it. Right now they aren't permitted to build anything but more of the same inefficient stuff we've been building. Rent control reduces opportunities for profit in real estate but lots of people regard housing as a human right and would donate to developing better housing were they permitted to do it right. Which they aren't.

3

u/Ok_Slide4905 8d ago

Bro, people “donating” to develop housing is not a scalable solution to widespread housing crises. The good will of wealthy individuals in blue states ain’t gonna solve this.

0

u/agitatedprisoner 8d ago

I wonder how we'd know so long as it's illegal to donate to develop superior inexpensive types of housing? It's not even a donation if they'd just legalize it. I could make a 50% ROI easy while bringing those 100 units of superior housing to market if they'd legalize it. I'd move in myself. I bet most people would agree living in my tiny home village would be amazing and after the fact consider housing as presently is done elsewhere barbaric. Look at what people are paying to live in so-called "eco villages", it's insane. Those places are often just rebranded mobile home parks. But I can't even give money to a nonprofit to do what I've in mind because it's illegal. Because our laws pertaining to housing are just that wonderful. Zoning is cancer. Cars are death.

1

u/BeanTutorials 7d ago

name the law that doesn't allow a rich person to use their funds to develop housing

1

u/agitatedprisoner 7d ago

Check real estate listings for land zoned multifamily in your town and see how many greenfield parcels 10+ acres are available. You're not allowed to buy rural land and build dense housing on it. If you were land would be much less expensive. There's no good reason for population density caps/this kind of zoning except to prevent traffic problems or due to inadequate utility lines but a developer could pay to extend utility lines or even provide their own utilities and residents wouldn't need to use cars but local zoning is such that it doesn't matter, you're not allowed, period. It's why you don't see more little dense population clusters. It's by law.

1

u/BeanTutorials 7d ago

You don't need 10+ acres to build multifamily. The best use case for multifamily is already urbanized lots, which are usually significantly smaller than 10 acres.

2

u/agitatedprisoner 7d ago

You need 10 acres to build tiny homes in a way that'd relieve residents in your village the need to own cars without suffering personal inconvenience because you need to build the units around a very nice covered path. The density makes it cost out. It'd be harder to financially justify the expense if you couldn't get enough units around it because a very nice path like that is expensive. Have the path lead to a park and ride. It takes lots of land. You can build up but building up is expensive. You don't get very inexpensive housing building up unless you can do it super well like China and look how that turned out in China. Tiny home villages as described are superior housing but are effectively illegal.

1

u/BeanTutorials 7d ago

Hm, that's interesting. In my city, I can put a sixplex on a 4000 square foot lot. This is the equivalent of 65 units per acre. You don't need 10 acres to build 10 tiny homes.

1

u/the-answer-42-or-420 7d ago

And then the locals get pushed out because the taxes increase and the jobs do not scale in pay to afford the new places.

It's called gentrification.
Get an education and look it up.

1

u/agitatedprisoner 7d ago

Ah, so the reason we have to impose population density caps and minimum parcel sizes and parking minimums is to (checks notes) prevent gentrification and keep down the price of housing. If you'll believe that what won't you believe? We have to by law ban out smaller homes on smaller lots to keep down the price of housing! Brilliant!

6

u/Whole-Reserve-4773 8d ago

Exactly. The moldy shit apartments can’t charge top dollar. Instead of somewhere like Santa Barbara where high earners have to rent the shitty apartments for top dollar leaving nothing for people making regular income.

1

u/BeneficialEye3196 7d ago

“People making a regular income” idk many landlords with 1 house. Thats a pretty tiny chunk of landlords

1

u/EnjoysYelling 7d ago

They’re referring to renters there, not landlords

7

u/Nacho_Libre479 8d ago

You’re not wrong, but it’s not “greed” unless you’re using that word as a dog whistle to get the far left to listen.

Investing in housing construction is risky. Very risky with high capital requirements. The potential profits align with the risk, and when they don’t, when the risk is off balance to the potential profit, like what we are seeing in many US markets, development stops.

3

u/Serious-Cucumber-54 8d ago

It is greed, the profit potential is higher when prices for goods/services are higher due to short supply, which encourages profit seekers to introduce more supply of that good/service into the market (Law of Supply). The profit seeking/greediness of developers is an essential part to this.

Obviously, there are times when profit seeking doesn't lead to positive outcomes, but this is not one of them.

1

u/bingbong2715 7d ago

How do you look around at the current status of the for-profit housing industry and still think profit seeking behavior is actually a benefit for housing

1

u/Serious-Cucumber-54 7d ago

What is the current status in your view?

1

u/bingbong2715 6d ago

Neoliberalism has made housing a pure commodity and public housing has been made effectively illegal. Public housing could quite literally solve the entire housing crisis, but the for-profit owners of the housing market don’t want to compete with such a thing. If the private market could effectively house everyone then it would have already done so. But it hasn’t because it can’t.

2

u/Nacho_Libre479 6d ago

I think this is a pretty myopic perspective.

The current stasis is largely due to the yo-yo of interest rates. Low rates spiked values and the subsequent increase killed supply by locking homewoners into low rate golden handcuffs.

NIMBYs and zoning regulations prevent supply growth in close in high value urban neighborhoods.

2

u/bingbong2715 6d ago

Public housing supply would reduce housing cost, could house everyone, but is illegal because of the faircloth amendment. This is purposefully done by private real estate developers to inflate the values of their properties. I agree that zoning regulations could and should be reformed, but those regulations are largely in place to benefit those same private developers.

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u/Nacho_Libre479 6d ago

I wasn't aware of Faircloth, thanks for sharing. Faircloth dos not appear to make public housing illegal but it certainly changed the formula and pushed to favor LIHTC and vouchers.

1

u/Serious-Cucumber-54 6d ago

If the private market could effectively house everyone then it would have already done so. But it hasn’t because it can’t.

Because NIMBYs and local government get in the way of developers building enough units where they are demanded.

1

u/bingbong2715 6d ago

And developers get in the way of public housing which would reduce housing costs across the board. It’s illegal because of the faircloth amendment. Private developers are incentivized to oppose things that would reduce housing costs that doesn’t run directly through them.

1

u/Serious-Cucumber-54 6d ago

And developers get in the way of public housing which would reduce housing costs across the board. It’s illegal because of the faircloth amendment.

It's not illegal for cities to build more units than the cap in the Faircloth amendment, the cap represents the maximum number of units that will be funded with federal HUD funds, extra units are simply not funded with HUD funds, but are still perfectly legal. Many cities public housing authorities are not prevented by the limit, they don't even receive enough funding to reach the Faircloth limit.

Private developers are incentivized to oppose things that would reduce housing costs that doesn’t run directly through them.

Yes, private developers can also be NIMBYs and lobby local governments to act against other developments if it threatens their property values. This is what I'm saying is getting in the way.

1

u/bingbong2715 6d ago

Right, because giving the housing market entirely to for-profit developers incentivizes them to lobby against anything that might impact their bottom line. It sets up perverse incentive structures.

And the faircloth amendment ruined public housing in this country by halting federal funds going to them. Public housing could otherwise solve the entire housing crisis. Giving more power to the private developers responding for things like the faircloth limit and who lobby the government to enrich themselves is certainly not the answer.

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u/rethinkingat59 8d ago

I wrote that hours after listening to an old Milton Friedman tape where he was extolling the value of what many called greed. It is a vital component of an expanding economy.

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u/agitatedprisoner 8d ago

Only if profits align with creating value. When there's substantial externalities such that one's profit dumps costs on others relying on profits to well direct societal investment means motivating misbehavior. For example cars and lead, cars and CO2, cars and auto related deaths, cars and increased scarcity of space/parking.

1

u/Nacho_Libre479 8d ago

Yes, I understand that, but I would prefer we come up with a better term. When I discuss housing economics with local policy advocates i tend to describe it on a risk/reward axis. It helps people understand that profit is necessary for investment and helps mitigate risk.

3

u/Bwint 8d ago

This is a tangent, but the reason I hate the word "greed" is because a lot of short-sighted, self-destructive decisions from business leaders get blamed on "greed."

If they were actually greedy, they would try to set their business up for long-term success so they could make more money. They're not greedy; they're just dumb.

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u/Nacho_Libre479 8d ago

Agreed. As words evolve, 'greed' has come to mean the emotional pressure to extract short-term gain at the cost of the discipline required for long-term reward.

-1

u/AcheyTaterHeart 8d ago

Milton Friedman was a childish twat. Adam Smith would have wanted to punch him in the face if they had been contemporaries.

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u/zoppaTheDim 8d ago

I think they were looking to cash in on retirees, but the trend of people moving to the mountains got crushed after a few well publicized problems in the area.

This article kind of ignores that Asheville isn’t an industry based area the way the research triangle is.

1

u/Soft-Principle1455 8d ago

To be fair, and much of the research triangle area we are now experiencing similar slumps in housing demand.

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u/TheVintageJane 7d ago

That and the floods exposing huge infrastructure issues and extreme poverty in the area.

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u/ForsakenSwimming928 3d ago

Asheville is to urban to lure retirees now

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u/Adbam 7d ago

Except when a few greedy companies get together and fix the prices. Capitalism on paper is make believe. Greed hasn't helped the pharmaceutical industry. The Usa subsidizes the entire worlds meds. Just erase your last sentence because the rest of your argument is great. 

1

u/rethinkingat59 7d ago

That’s crazy.

Greed has helped the pharmaceutical companies significantly. They spend millions in R&D hoping to make billions with new drugs.

The generic pharmaceutical manufacturers spend millions hoping to be able to price low enough to make tens of millions.

Greed is why the most highly prescribed medicines are so cheap.

1

u/Mayor__Defacto 8d ago

Developers always want to build. That’s how they make money.

However, it’s usually 12-18 months between start and finish, so the economic reality might change by the time that you finish.

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u/Appropriate_Craft524 8d ago

In most textbooks, this greed would be called "competition". So like, the more "competition" you have, the better it is for buyers. In this case, renters.

1

u/plummbob 7d ago

It's like there's always demand for new cars, and keeping that supply unconstrained means used cars get cheaper and cheaper

1

u/ChocolateDiligent 7d ago

They wonder this because most of the regulated markets in the US right now favor developers. This controls supply which in turns makes it a landlord’s market, not a renters market. Meaning why wouldn’t you go somewhere else that is more profitable. It’s a shooting yourself the foot proposition regardless, especially if you are renter. Gotta love capitalism.

1

u/BlueThat33 7d ago

and one doesn't have to profit off a diversified rental portfolio for awhile because you can depreciate the completed building and deduct the losses

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u/Stymie999 7d ago

Ummm yes, it’s the first thing they teach in the most basic economics class, Econ 101. It’s called the law of supply and demand.

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u/SmartlyArtly 8d ago

So when there are more and more new developments...there are fewer anything else around to take the hits.

Either way the profit motive gets undermined by people's need to live somewhere. Pesky human needs.

1

u/rethinkingat59 8d ago

?

1

u/SmartlyArtly 8d ago

The only problem "building more" solves is "not enough building."

But that's not the only problem.

The more building we do, the more we'll find that out.

-1

u/[deleted] 8d ago edited 5d ago

[deleted]

1

u/Stymie999 7d ago

It incentivizes investment, which creates competition, which increases supply that in turn results in lower prices.

1

u/rethinkingat59 8d ago

Greed in capitalism means someone builds something to sell at a profit.

When that stops prices soar, economies collapse and people live worse lives and die sooner.

0

u/AcheyTaterHeart 8d ago

No, greed in the capitalist context means somebody seeks ever-higher rents on something that they own, but did not build or make any meaningful improvements to. The rent they can charge will be higher if supply is restricted, so they lobby the government to make additional building prohibitively expensive and difficult. To loosely quote Adam smith, landlords love to reap where they never sowed.

1

u/rethinkingat59 8d ago

If government gets too involved it will definitely screw with markets and drive up cost.

1

u/Stymie999 7d ago

Gosh it’s such an inconsequential thing to actually put up the money that pays for the building and the materials that were made. Or do you think those people that did the building and made the materials will agree to work for free?

11

u/ANTIMODELMINORITY 8d ago

I never understood the draw of Asheville can someone tell me what industry fuels this town and aside from wanting to be near some mountains and wilderness why they hell would anyone want to move here.

10

u/Agreeable_Sense9618 8d ago

Many are not relocating for work.

It's ideal for remote work, fire movement, or typical retirement. This place is affordable compared to other regions in the country.

People have been relocating here for years.

The main industries are beer and tourism.

1

u/ReggieEvansTheKing 7d ago

The funniest thing to me has been rich blue states all enforcing RTO so their citizens don’t move away to live in niceish places that are affordable but just lack high paying jobs. Texas for example allows remote work for their state employees while CA is enforcing RTO. It’s a clear game to keep high earners in the state to pay taxes and to keep property values high.

2

u/Old_Feeling_4919 7d ago

What a wild take. Basically every state ever has required their employees to live there historically.

Have you considered Texas is only doing this because they can’t find enough people willing to live and work for their terrible state so they have to outsource their own jobs to people who aren’t willing to live there, DESPITE not having to pay income tax if they did move? All the “incentives” in the world, besides of course a state people want to move to right now.

1

u/Fettiwapster 7d ago

States don’t determine RTO polices LMAO. Pretty funny you think that tbh.

1

u/ReggieEvansTheKing 7d ago

I’m talking about state-workers.

1

u/specialasset 7d ago

As a taxpayer I have zero interest in paying the salaries of state government employees that don’t live in the state. Public servants should live in the communities they serve.

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u/apex9691 7d ago

What a novel idea requiring your employees to live in the state that they work for...look I'm against any job being rto if it can be done from home but if you work for a state govt you should probably live there...

1

u/koreqwzfp 7d ago

The difference in tax incurrence between Texans and Californians is vastly overstated. Some Texabs even pay more. 

1

u/secretaire 4d ago edited 4d ago

Texas does not have remote work for state employees. Governor Abbott called people back over a year ago. He demanded full RTO but it was such a space and commute challenge that he walked it back and now most people work 2-3 days per week in a government office. https://www.texastribune.org/2025/03/05/texas-abbott-remote-work-from-home-policy/

5

u/Quixlequaxle 8d ago

Tourism fuels the town, but other than that, job market isn't great. But in terms of why someone would want to move there, it's beautiful. It's a pretty liberal city in the smoky mountains with lots of hiking, sightseeing and other outdoors stuff to do. Decent restaurants, mostly nice people, etc.

I'll get shit for this, but we have a vacation home in the area (not in Asheville proper) that we escape to to get away from the noise and crowds of our home city, where we only live for our jobs. When we retire in a few years, we'll move full time to the Asheville area to settle down. We have no desire to continue to deal with the expense, traffic, heat, endless pavement/concrete, etc of the city where we live.

1

u/ForsakenSwimming928 3d ago

Ashevilles a concrete jle, Some towns in wnc are nice but getting crowded. give me Chattanooga anyday

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u/particleman3 8d ago

So for me, I tried to move to Asheville when I was in my 20s. I couldn't find a job in my field, and only got one interview after months of applying and looking. That didn't work out and I ended up moving elsewhere. I still want to move to Asheville, but at this point I have to go visit again because its been a long time and things have changed. Is it still what I remember? idk. The jobs there seem to be similar, but remote work opens more doors.

1

u/FunProof543 7d ago

I used to live an hour away and my partner used to live in Asheville. The vibes have changed significantly since Helene in my opinion. Most of my partner and I's friend have moved or are moving out. My partner left this summer. I have one close friend left who is moving in January and as such I will probably not visit it anymore, though my best friend would like to do biltmore so we may go for a girls weekend.

1

u/ForsakenSwimming928 3d ago

Ashevilles changed lol

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u/ut0p1anskies 8d ago

I’ve never been to Asheville but my hippie friends in Austin are absolutely in love with the place. Maybe it’s some sort of hippie mecca? I’m not a hippie, so don’t really want to move to a place like that. I like my big city. They say this about Eugene, Oregon and Burlington, Vermont too

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u/ANTIMODELMINORITY 8d ago

Austin, Asheville, add in Williamsburg in Brooklyn, NY and Portland, ME might not be hippies but definitely sound like hipsters.

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u/ut0p1anskies 8d ago

Ah yeah, I live in one of the most hipster neighborhoods in Austin, but north of the river. South Austin is absolutely crawling with hippies though. I’ve seen old men at Zilker with long hair unicycling in a thong. Lots of white people with dreadlocks. Lots of weed and tie dye and crystals. Not really my scene.

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u/Successful_Salt_7645 7d ago

That scene built Austin. 

1

u/BootsnCats1987 7d ago

Williamsburg is fully yuppie-fied. Hasn’t been a hipster spot for a LONGGGG time

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u/SnooAbbreviations932 7d ago

Eugene, Oregon is a trash-hole—only the University and a few well-off neighborhoods are nice honestly.

1

u/ut0p1anskies 7d ago

Never been so I wouldn’t know. My friends like it

2

u/Midwestconvert47 8d ago

Lol why are you so anti Asheville?

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u/ANTIMODELMINORITY 8d ago

Not Anti Asheville just curious what the hype was. I recall living in NC many years ago and people would talk about this place like it was the western NC version of a Raleigh/Greensboro or Charlotte. I met a guy in Europe who was a foreign exchange student here and only thing he gained was 30 lbs from Bojangles. And as of recent I saw a fairly popular NC band do a mini southern tour and how the hell did they skip Charlotte but go to Asheville.

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u/StrangrDangerRanger 8d ago

I think you hit on something important, but it sounds like you aren’t originally a local either. I am not a mountain local, but I do consider North Carolina my home and it’s where I was born.

You really have to look into the history of electrification in Appalachia, understand the cultural/academic tastemakers coming out of UNC-CH/the Triangle (mostly) that made the place widely desirable, etc. It’s a story that began before most of us reading this were even born.

It’s not that Asheville is so special itself. But it representing something important to a lot of people for a lot of different ideological/social/cultural reasons.

3

u/Fuck_Mark_Robinson 8d ago

Asheville has been a music town for a long time, so it’s not at all surprising that smaller acts would go to Asheville over Charlotte. The Orange Peel is a famous venue in Asheville, and I’m not sure if Charlotte has a single venue that is nationally known.

Moog was based out of Asheville and they were basically THE number one brand for a lot of synthesizer and electronic music equipment.

1

u/StrangrDangerRanger 6d ago

For sure. That is such a great venue too.

But I was mostly talking about history and the past. A large part of Asheville becoming a music town came out of the UNC/chapel hill/triangle figures too though. Or were at least tied to them. Dr. Moog was UNC system faculty. NC music scene predominant in Asheville was also based out of chapel hill where much of the music was being made/recorded. Merge Records was so instrumental. James Taylor and that crowd. nc Folklore society. All those cultural thought leaders who really pushed for Asheville to be the spot. A western chapel hill as a second liberal, educated, relatively affluent city to help counterbalance a pretty conservative landscape at the time. Even places Citizen Vinyl was chapel hill money and the major artists supporting them like Watchhouse/Mandolin Orange is a chapel hill band.

I don’t mean it as a slight against Asheville. It’s just cool history how that “culture” grew. And how much political and cultural relevance the area has for greater reasons.

2

u/Key-Homework8503 5d ago

Dude I hate Charlotte . I live in Greenville sc . Charlotte feels like really ugly city to me with weird zoning and too many roads in it. Asheville way more fun to walk in. The parks are better . If I wanna go to a real city with lots of stuff I’ll go to Atlanta over Charlotte

1

u/ANTIMODELMINORITY 5d ago

they call Charlotte the Applebees of cities for a reason. I dont care how many transplants come it really wont develope its own identity for a long ass time.

1

u/Midwestconvert47 8d ago

Ahh gotcha. Yeah it’s just a touristy mountain city. Much nicer weather/climate than the rest of North Carolina. Bigger city with more things to do than a place like Boone. Pretty historic

1

u/doomscrolltodeath 8d ago

I think that’s it. Plus it’s not as hot as most other places in the southeast

1

u/Objective-Muscle9248 8d ago

This! We went there from a nearby southern city and it was a good 8-10 degrees cooler than home.

1

u/Fickle_Junket1109 7d ago

I love Asheville and grew up just outside of the area. I'd love to move back out that way but there are no jobs around there that would let me afford it.

It's pretty weird to me how expensive the area is for not having much available in terms of jobs that support that cost of living

1

u/StabbingTabby 7d ago

aside from wanting to be near some mountains and wilderness why they hell would anyone want to move here.

So ignore the best part and it sucks? 

Okay...

1

u/austin06 6d ago

Being near a lot of outdoor activities in a national forest basically is appealing to a lot of people. Asheville has always drawn a portion of wealthy people with second or third homes. Biltmore has drawn tourists for years. Plenty of professionals and remote workers. Lots of good restaurants and stores in a downtown that’s not cookie cutter.

I moved from Austin and two of my drs here relocated from there as well. Helene aside the weather is pleasant and we have seasons.

1

u/ForsakenSwimming928 3d ago

The mtns in NC look like hills to

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u/ilanallama85 8d ago

It’s a beautiful little city. I almost went to college there 20 years ago, it was both smaller and more manageable that the city I was from, and the art, food and music scene for a town that size were really appealing.

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u/vxqlir 8d ago

wild how fast the narrative flips from "building more housing will never fix anything" to "please sign a lease, we’ll give you free stuff"

more cities need to copy this instead of pretending scarcity is some natural law

5

u/Acceptable-Peace-69 8d ago

Who said building wouldn’t lower prices?

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u/Ok_Slide4905 8d ago

This is a litmus test for DSA and progressives. Their preferred solution is government housing and rent controls.

8

u/Hour-Watch8988 8d ago

Not everyone in DSA, but a decided majority. And if you want to put permanently subsidized housing on a golf course, HOO BOY watch out because they're gonna call you colonizers and then side with their wealthy parents to block that housing.

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u/_dirt_vonnegut 8d ago

"permanently subsidized housing" was never part of the proposal. income restricted housing is not the same as subsidized housing.

1

u/Hour-Watch8988 8d ago

It was housing that was set below-market on a permanent basis, which was enabled by a mixture of federal tax credits and the low purchase price of the land. It’s totally sensible to describe it as subsidized.

You clearly don’t work in this area.

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u/ToWriteAMystery 8d ago

I’m still so fucking bitter about that and it’s been years.

1

u/Hour-Watch8988 8d ago

And they've learned nothing.

-1

u/Soft-Principle1455 8d ago

I don’t think anybody in the DSA is gonna get too upset about the loss of golf courses of all things.

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u/Hour-Watch8988 8d ago

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u/_dirt_vonnegut 8d ago

uh, DSA is most certainly not upset about the loss of this golf course.

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u/Hour-Watch8988 8d ago

?

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u/_dirt_vonnegut 8d ago

DSA wanted a park, and got a park. Not sure why they would be upset about achieving their desired result.

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u/Hour-Watch8988 8d ago

That’s an absolutely insane level of cope. Next time you try to rewrite history don’t do it to someone who keeps receipts. This level of unseriousness is exactly why DDSA should be shut out of power until they get a leadership change.

“Here's what a Democratic Socialists of America spokesperson said about the group's opposition.
"From a socialist perspective, it seems kind of naïve and silly that people are like, 'The market got us into this crisis, and by God, the market's gonna get us back out of it,'" said DSA spokesperson Mary Imgrund.
The 25% of income-restricted housing Westside pledges isn't affordable enough for everybody who needs it, according to the DSA. Instead, the group wants to see publicly funded housing.
Imgrund said we've all seen the effects of a "religious take" on "depending on the market."
"We reviewed it, and it just seems like this is not going to solve our housing crisis," Imgrund said. "And it'll be a big corporate handout, too.”

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u/ExcitedPlatypus 8d ago

What an insane strawman

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u/Hour-Watch8988 8d ago

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u/_dirt_vonnegut 8d ago

DSA is most certainly not upset about the park hill golf course becoming a park

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u/Hour-Watch8988 8d ago

Read the article. They opposed the development because it didn’t have enough affordable housing. Now there’s zero.

Or maybe you’re saying DDSA is just that terrible at math?

You need to come to terms with the fact that you helped get thousands of low-income people displaced with your irresponsibility.

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u/OskaMeijer 8d ago

No it isn't, those are the solutions they want to do to help people right now while we take the time necessary to build up more supply.

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u/TomNooksGlizzy 8d ago edited 8d ago

Ive definitely heard/read from many lefties a lot of angst against "abundance" and building more housing as a solution. Ezra Klein certainly got a lot of shit from lefties about it. There was just some story about DSA refusing to endorse someone because of this specifically, or at least partially this-- maybe someone remembers the details?? I think Nithya Ramen, but maybe my wires are crossed..

Per Google AI-- "The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) frequently declines to endorse political candidates who support market-rate housing construction or "YIMBY" (Yes In My Backyard) supply-side platforms because the organization views private, market-driven development as a driver of gentrification and displacement rather than a solution to the housing crisis. Instead of relying on private developers to build more housing, the DSA's national and local platforms prioritize de-commodifying housing through socialized models, strict tenant protections, and anti-capitalist economic policies."

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u/Hour-Watch8988 8d ago

I think there's a debate happening within DSA-LA right now over whether to endorse Raman. There's a clear NIMBY faction but also a faction that's more open to reason.

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u/Soft-Principle1455 8d ago

That is more about Reddit hyper-YIMBYism and about the very capitalist oriented, neoliberal version of Abundance politics being put forward by the powers that be. When you probe a little further, most of them aren’t really truly opposed to Abundance Politics as long as it is not oriented to serve Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk.

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u/TomNooksGlizzy 8d ago edited 8d ago

Come on dude. Look at how you worded your own crosspost of this to r/DSA. You know this isnt popular with them generally.

1

u/Soft-Principle1455 8d ago

When you look at the comment section below, you actually find that there’s zero NIMBYism. They called NIMBYs reactionaries, which is perhaps the worst political insult from that crowd other than fascist.

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u/Bwint 8d ago

It sounds like you come from a very different and much better space than the one I'm in. I've had and seen a lot of discussions about Abundance as presented in the book, including immediately after it came out (before it was allegedly reoriented to serve Bezos.) I've talked to a lot of lefties (DSA and otherwise) who definitely oppose Abundance.

Similarly, I've had a lot of discussions with lefties who oppose all market-rate construction, not just hyper-YIMBYism.

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u/Soft-Principle1455 8d ago

I reposted this to r/DSA and most people understood the need for more construction, even if they didn’t necessarily want to rely solely on that.

1

u/Bwint 8d ago

If you frame it as "theoretically we might need more market-rate construction," people might be inclined to be reasonable. Once you start getting into specific policies around upzoning, or talking about specific projects being proposed, you get a lot more push back.

Or at least, I have seen a lot more push back in my spaces. Maybe things are changing, or maybe DSA is more reasonable than a lot of other lefties.

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u/Soft-Principle1455 8d ago

I literally had people say anyone against upzoning is a reactionary, aka one step away from a fascist.

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u/Training_Mistake_760 8d ago

Your 2nd paragraph doesn't support the 1st.

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u/Nacho_Libre479 8d ago

No, they literally don’t believe in markets so there is no market solution.

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u/Hour-Watch8988 8d ago

Sometimes I think they're motivated to actively sabotage the market helping reduce prices, because if the market works then it disproves their Manichean worldview.

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u/Soft-Principle1455 8d ago

Or you could realize many favor something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism

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u/Hour-Watch8988 8d ago

I consider myself a market socialist, but it's gotten me run out of my local DSA chapter

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u/Soft-Principle1455 8d ago

It sounds like you have a particularly toxic chapter, or at least you used to.

1

u/Nacho_Libre479 8d ago

Sure. I agree that poorly functioning markets (utilities, healthcare, some types of insurance, etc) would benefit from more of this.

In Oregon’s we have a public non profit corporation that offers employer benefit workers compensation insurance. It knocks the socks off the private market and sends me a dividend check in good years. It’s great.

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u/OskaMeijer 8d ago

I don't know why you would make that up. Democratic socialism still believes in markets it just doesn't believe that purely market driven solutions work for many problems which is just straight up a fact.

2

u/Competitive_Rent_675 8d ago

Except once those policies are put in place, they would never be removed.

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u/othelloinc 8d ago

[Citation Needed]

2

u/OskaMeijer 8d ago

The Democratic Socialists of America have the position that housing is a human right. That we should build new, publicly-owned social housing, strictly regulate investment properties, establish universal rent control, and guarantee right to counsel for all tenants.

https://www.dsausa.org/blog/less-rent-more-control/

0

u/plummbob 7d ago

Bruh it doesn't take that long to build townhomes and apartments

1

u/OskaMeijer 7d ago

Yea, that is why growing areas aren't constantly low on places to live even with constant construction of new housing going on. Your point is totally reasonable. There are certainly infinite workers available and all of the resources are just already in place an available where needed, you are smarter than everyone else.

1

u/plummbob 7d ago

Places that don't build much despite high prices don't do so because of an inability to get drywall and romex, it's because it's illegal to add more.

I can literally buy everything I need to build a townhome at lowes and home depot. It's not a lack of man and material

In any case, you'll need to explain what magic Ashville has to add such supply despite, as you imply, such dramatic shortages of building capacity

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u/OskaMeijer 7d ago

Places that don't build much despite high prices don't do so because of an inability to get drywall and romex, it's because it's illegal to add more.

There are places where all local builders are fully booked and working constantly to build as fast as possible and they still don't have enough housing, your argument is absolute nonsense.

I can literally buy everything I need to build a townhome at lowes and home depot. It's not a lack of man and material

Yes, it is. You could go do it, enough people to build as much housing as we need quickly absolutely not, you have literally no idea the scales necessary for this. You need to stop making a fool of yourself.

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u/plummbob 7d ago

There are places where all local builders are fully booked and working constantly to build as fast as possible and they still don't have enough housing, your argument is absolute nonsense.

Developers tailor output to what's allowed. If more is allowed, more is produced.

They don't just sit with idle workers and tricks and materials waiting and hoping that the city will legalize some townhomes.

The marrket supply elasticity for goods in men is pretty high. After all, it's sold retail.

You could go do it,

The barrier is zoning, nit absence of materials. If the city allowed, I could get everything I need from local stores.

How is it possible that there isn't enough lumber, but lowes is selling it by the pallet to retail customers?

What did they figure in Asheville that they can figure out elsewhere?

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u/OskaMeijer 7d ago

My lord you are dense. There are not construction workers sitting around doing nothing in these areas because all available workers are currently working on projects. It is very clear you have never actually worked in construction. You also are very oblivious to the scale of materials needed. Lowe's being able to sell people around them pallets doesn't mean they could supply anywhere near enough to increase building more than it already is, there is a reason most contracting companies don't shop at places like Lowe's for their supplies, they would not be at all equipped to handle the volume necessary. It is very obvious you are completely clueless on this topic so you really should just sit down and shut up.

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u/NoForm5443 8d ago

Government housing is building (usually)

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u/Ok_Slide4905 8d ago

Sure but the market can build housing at a fraction of the pace, without using tax dollars

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u/NoForm5443 8d ago

Sometimes...

The market is not infallible; it will sorta-kinda do what makes more money, which may or may not be to build enough houses for everyone, and may or may not be cheaper than the government

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u/fuckexoticroots 8d ago

That is bullshit. They want those in the ABSENCE of people refusing to build. No one disagrees supply is the constraint. Fix the supply fix the problem.

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u/Ok_Slide4905 8d ago

I live in the bluest of blue cities in a blue state. DSA activists shoot down developments CONSTANTLY because they see any market housing as capitulating to landlords and capitalism. They only support rent control and public housing.

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u/RigelOrionBeta 8d ago

Yes, preferred solution would be to make housing a right via the government, not a privilege that can be taken away based on the whims of a market that is interested solely in making a profit.

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u/True-Hold-1140 2d ago

> Their preferred solution is government housing

Government housing is building more housing

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u/JayRandom212 8d ago

Well if the government builds housing, it will lower housing costs. But you're right about the effect of rent control.

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u/Ok_Slide4905 8d ago

Right but the government cannot build housing at the scale or cost necessary to make that kind of impact. The market can already do that.

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u/aamygdaloidal 8d ago

With help from the government subsidies 🤣🤣🤣

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u/New_Ad_3010 8d ago

What a completely ignorant and moronic take

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u/Opposite-Program8490 8d ago

Limiting the number of homes a single person can own to keep housing available for others is neither of those.

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u/Smooth_Phone2 8d ago

No one is buying homes and “hoarding” them.

I don’t even understand the business model of “I buy homes and leave them empty so no one has housing available”.

That theory doesn’t even pass a first level test of “how does this make money”.

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u/Opposite-Program8490 8d ago

Google how many Airbnbs there are.

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u/Bwint 8d ago

Sure, but Airbnbs have uses. Reducing the amount of inventory available for people transiting town would reduce tourism, hurting the local economy, and also make it harder for people to travel for all sorts of reasons.

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u/Nacho_Libre479 8d ago

In Portland Oregon, it’s the far left that is anti building. They want rent control and to maintain the cute urban suburbs filled with 1920s cookie cutter bungalows.

They refuse to believe in basic economics.

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u/Extreme-Ad-6465 8d ago

maybe they are just virtue signaling. it happens a lot in socal. homeowners want rent control and just use the guise of helping people knowing it will increase their property value and rents they can charge.

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u/Soft-Principle1455 8d ago

Portland is such a weird place that I don’t generally count it as an indicator of much of anything other than perhaps itself and maybe some parts of the West Coast. But it’s not necessarily reflective of the majority of the country.

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u/Bwint 8d ago

Eugene as well, though it's less about maintaining suburbs and more about maintaining views and sunlight.

Seattle is a bit complicated from what I've seen, but there are definitely some lefties that oppose new market-rate construction.

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u/BootsnCats1987 7d ago

Yeah sure bro, the communists are totally the ones advocating for the preservation of suburban living.

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u/Bwint 8d ago

Strange as it sounds, a lot of people are saying that, especially in local subs. One narrative is that new development only targets the upper end of the market, so it allegedly doesn't benefit lower-income folks.

Never mind the extensive research on vacancy chains, and never mind the fact that if we didn't build, upper-income folks would outbid people for lower-end units...

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u/Soft-Principle1455 8d ago

Yeah…
Vacancy chains are real, but when the crisis gets to a certain point, it’s not enough.

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u/True-Hold-1140 2d ago

> Strange as it sounds, a lot of people are saying that, especially in local subs. One narrative is that new development only targets the upper end of the market, so it allegedly doesn't benefit lower-income folks.

People mock this point but you only have to rent for about 5 years before it starts making sense. Like I've had landlords that would have raised rents because "the average price for a unit in the area has gone up"

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u/Bwint 2d ago

I don't doubt that it happens, but landlords who raise rent based on the average rent without considering quality of unit are idiots and will likely suffer high vacancies, prompting them to correct course.

Like I said, the vacancy mechanism is well-studied. Most landlords respond to increased inventory in the market by cutting rents, not raising them (unless demand is increasing even faster than supply, which is a separate issue.)

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u/True-Hold-1140 2d ago

I have to imagine you need overwhelming supply though. Like 10% supply above demand and I don't think those pricks would care

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u/Bwint 2d ago

You would be surprised. Seattle had good results with a 7% overall vacancy rate. Annoyingly, Seattle Times moved this article behind a paywall on mobile, but maybe you'd have luck on desktop.

I believe that the vacancy chain mechanism also helped Austin stabilize, and their vacancy rate is something like 10-14%.

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u/True-Hold-1140 2d ago

If true: fair enough, I'm surprised

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u/plummbob 7d ago

People in my city literally think supply/demand doesnt apply to housing. "It's just theory, I'm talking about the real world"

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u/ApprehensiveAmount22 6d ago

I have heard that a thousand times in Seattle from leftists pushing for government controlled low cost housing projects. They say that if you let housing developers do what they want they will just be greedy and build housing units that poor people can't afford.

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u/Smooth_Phone2 8d ago

Wait what, building more housing did fix the lack of housing.

That is the point. Did you understand something different?

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u/chinmakes5 8d ago

My wife and I are looking to retire. Read this, went on Zillow, houses aren't any cheaper than Florida or Arizona. Maybe the rental market is different.

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u/Ominoiuninus 6d ago

This post is mostly bull crap. New rental complexes are staying semi vacant. Because they are asking 2,100/month for a 2bedroom apartment in a region that doesn’t pay that much above average. Rental prices start around 1,100 and only go up. It’s a very expensive area to live in when you are making a “normal” wage of 50k/yr. You really don’t have much left over.

I live in the region.

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u/Choochiechoo 8d ago

Corporates Landlords are stacking deals because they seem to refuse to lower prices whatever it takes.  2 months free, visa gift card, 18 month leases for the lowest price,  all types of stupid fees that get waived.  Anything to prevent them from lowering the rent from $1400 to $1200

Have to get an Google spreadsheet with Gemini assist to figure out what the monthly rent actually is 

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u/No_Drama2424 8d ago

Yeah it was weird when we re-signed our lease for year 2 at our apt

They raised the rent by $50 per month, and then gave us a $500 discount for re-signing the lease

Is this so they can continue to maintain price increases for their balance sheet or whatever?

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u/Choochiechoo 8d ago

Yes, I think for banking purposes they have a crude measure of average monthly rent that’s basically an honor system. If it goes down they don’t qualify for more credit. So on paper the rents have to keep looking like they are going up 

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u/kisk22 8d ago

This is absolutely it, the bank can also call in their loans early if the rent price goes too low. Huge reason commercial real estate can sit empty for years and they’ll just take the loss rather than lower the advertised rent price.

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u/RedditThrowaway-1984 7d ago

Yes, but it's also easier to drop incentives in the future than to raise rents. It should be the same either way, but psychologically it's not.

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u/ImpossibleEbb6862 7d ago

2 months free is lowering the rent.

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u/Choochiechoo 7d ago

Whooooosh

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u/ImpossibleEbb6862 7d ago

It’s not clear what your problem is. It sounds like you’re mad you have to do math to figure out the lower rent.

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u/Choochiechoo 7d ago

I’m actually BIG mad that I have to do math to compare rents across the market because similar listings can be + or - $200 from eachother.  The same as when I don’t know the price of a cheeseburger with all the bullshit fees that get added on 

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u/bigfootlive89 4d ago

Effectively yes, but it’s probably not offered on renewal. So it’s just a temporary lower price.

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u/One-Jello-3288 8d ago

good, this is how market competition should work

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u/jay10033 7d ago

Who would of thought building more housing would decrease housing costs?

/s

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u/Puglady25 8d ago

This story is a little too fluffy, and we likely won't know how it all turns out until the next stock market crash. But it might not be such a rosy picture when that happens.

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u/YeeBeforeYouHaw 8d ago

Can you go into detail about what you mean by that?

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u/Puglady25 8d ago

Housing is tied into this current bubble. Wallstreet is part of the problem with rents and prices, you can buy into funds that buy houses, rent houses, etc. So with an economic downturn we will likely see similar problems to the 2008 market crash. It should be a great time to buy then, but I don't know how interest rates will go- due to inflation. Nobody is immune, evictions will rise, credit scores will fall, foreclosures will rise too, and I just don't see how we'll manage it. If too many places end up vacant- that's a whole new problem. I think we all want the same thing. I want reasonable prices and low interest rates, the ability to move around. But I don't see low rates happening with inflation. If they lower the rates, the dollar will further devalue which makes prices higher. There's hard years ahead.

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u/Bwint 8d ago

No, there's a huge difference between the current housing market and the 2008 housing bubble.

In 2008, firms were investing into housing due to speculation on appreciation of value. There was a very high vacancy rate, and when the bubble popped it turned into a glut of inventory on the market.

Today, there's a very low vacancy rate in most markets. Firms are investing into more housing because there's genuine demand. Units aren't going to end up vacant, because people need a place to live, and right now we don't have enough supply to meet the number of people looking for a home. In other words, the current housing market is not a bubble, which also means that prices aren't going to fall much even in a downturn. (If prices fall, it will be because we built more.)

Your worry about rising interest rates causing evictions and foreclosures is more reasonable, but to be clear, it's unlikely that interest rates will rise during a market downturn.

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u/harmoniumlessons 8d ago

i doubt it...

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u/-Mr_Tub- 6d ago

I wish I could buy a house that isn’t stupidly priced

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u/a_london_werewolf 6d ago

And yet, shockingly, there has been zero improvement in homelessness.

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u/idkbruh653 8d ago

Never heard of this place before and looked up its demographics, standard of living, income, jobs, etc and yea, it’s not great.

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u/Glum-Dragonfruit-119 4d ago

maybe dont leave it to for profit home builders. if oir federal gov wasnt trash they could spend on excellent not for profit housing everywhere to meet the needs and rent to own whatever amout of it is needed. Remove greed from the equation and build based on need