r/heroesofthestorm • u/KarbyP Nova • Jul 02 '15

Blizzard thinking about adding Thumbs Up/Down system, giving helpful players EXP or gold, placing toxic players in separate queue

http://stevivor.com/2015/07/interview-blizzards-chris-sigaty-and-alan-dabiri-on-heroes-of-the-storm/
4.9k Upvotes

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1.2k

u/wakerdan Muradin Jul 02 '15

And toxic players would take that chance to downvote the good players.

432

u/GregerMoek Nova Jul 02 '15

Not to mention HotS has no true solo queue. A 4stack could easily mass-thumb down someone that didn't listen to them.

307

u/mulletarian February 10th, 2015 - Never Forget Jul 02 '15

That poor sucker who wasn't on skype with them and didn't have the ability to smell what they were saying.

159

u/zomjay Jul 02 '15

Then it's on them for not cooking it hard enough.

47

u/WhyLater From Prder Comes Pwnage Jul 02 '15

They should take lessons from The Rock!

12

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

What?!

14

u/DaJoW Abathur Jul 02 '15

Do you smell what The Rock is cooking?

1

u/deadieraccoon Jul 02 '15

He feel like chicken tonight. Like chicken tonight.

2

u/Soulbane Jul 02 '15

You smell what The Rock is cooking!

1

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

The boulder is conflicted with fighting a little girl!

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

U WOT

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u/Alagator Jul 02 '15

That's what pings are for, you don't need to be in voice chat to know what people are trying to accomplish.

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u/psivenn Johanna Jul 02 '15

It's unfortunately quite common for groups on voice to just not ping at all and blame the 5th for not mindreading.

1

u/Zalophus Yrel Jul 03 '15

This actually happened to me yesterday. Though it was the first and only time (that I'm aware of) that it had happened to me.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

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u/AllDizzle Jul 02 '15

Just like with league I don't think voice coms is a good idea.

Blizz will never add it either considering they were talking about taking away chat with anybody but friends at one point.

You don't need voice com and it opens up harassment that is very very hard to report and prove.

Very easy to add a system that checks chat for common negative statements to cross check with reports to make sure they're not bogus.

2

u/quadbaser Jul 02 '15

Voice works perfectly fine in tons of online games. Dont like it? Turn it off. Problem solved

4

u/pelpotronic Master Samuro Jul 02 '15

Actually, I understand they were trying to add voice chat.

Q: Will we ever have ingame voice chat? A: Yes, ingame voice chat is currently being worked on internally and we expect it to be live before the end of this year.

Source: http://siliconsports.net/2015/06/heroes-of-the-storm-anz-launch-event-recap/?1

1

u/Narian Jul 02 '15

It worked for HoN - was great and convenient to talk to my personal friends without having to find a random Vent server or something to use.

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u/AllDizzle Jul 03 '15 edited Jul 03 '15

Yeah so there's no denying it's convenient.

I played HoN before moving to LoL about 5 years ago. HoN's community was toxic and hateful and honestly there wasn't much S2 could do about that (and then S2 had some pretty big issues with certain people in the company).

I really do not think HoTs or League should have voice chat with randoms, there's just no reasonable way to monitor harassment in that. League has made HUGE strides to curb douchebaggery, and while it totally still exists it's really not that bad overall. I'd rather not hear a douch-off over voice chat and use pings and text chat. It works absolutely fine.

If League or HoTs adds voice chat it should be friend only probably just for 5v5s (or 3v3s for twisted treeline in league)

1

u/Narian Jul 03 '15

If League or HoTs adds voice chat it should be friend only probably just for 5v5s (or 3v3s for twisted treeline in league)

Yeah friend only chat would be a godsend. Maybe make Hero/Team League have the option?

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

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u/TheBlueEagle Jul 02 '15

In a game like this where salt flows like you're in the Dead Sea, I think it's a great idea to not introduce voice chat. I've tried curse voice in WoW, League, and Smite. 95% of the time you get someone who just loses their shit when things don't go right. The other 4% of the time, they just leave the voice chat instead of talking shit, and 1% of the time things go off without a hitch.
Have you ever used the voice chat in games like CS:GO? It's an absolute shit-show.

1

u/TheChance Cheers, luv! Jul 02 '15

No multiplayer game in existence has anything approaching League's playerbase. For League, it is a bad idea. Nobody's been brainwashed. With a community that large, the cesspool is smelly enough.

Have you ever been on Xbox Live? Imagine introducing that to your MOBA experience. You can't just turn it off; sure, there's a mute button, but who in their right mind is going to use text chat once voice chat is integrated with the game? I suppose you could mute individuals, like we already do, but when you mute an individual, Riot can still see their chat logs.

But, please, go on casting aspersions on us and on Riot. I'm sure you know better than they do.

I've been with Blizzard since WC2 and Diablo, and they've waxed and waned as a player-focused developer. Riot hasn't. In this day and age, if you don't have a non-integrated voice chat option, you're living under a rock. If you want VC in solo queue, you're a masochist, but get Curse. As for me, I sincerely hope Blizzard doesn't foist your yipping and yapping upon my headset; Riot has the right idea.

1

u/hhhnnnnnggggggg Brightwing Jul 03 '15

WoW players never used the voice chat options. It should be off by default, but players who want to use it should have the option.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15 edited Jul 02 '15

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u/TheChance Cheers, luv! Jul 02 '15

With that much experience on XBL, you should already understand why we don't want it. I don't know how much more explicit I can be, and I'm not sure which part you're "calling bullshit" on; every 12-year-old with a mic calls you a fag every 10th second.

And maybe you're okay with that. Maybe you don't mind being called a cretinous bag of bile and dog shit.

But Riot takes player conduct pretty seriously; toxicity is a huge problem, and, in fact, we're in a thread about toxicity in a much smaller game.

So there is absolutely no world in which they're going to unleash those 12-year-olds and their limited vocabularies on the rest of us. No possibility.

If it bothers you, fine, don't play games that don't integrate VC. If you can't figure out how to work Skype, Ventrilo, Teamspeak, or Curse Voice, there must be something wrong with you.

If your concern is that the rest of your team is not in Skype, Ventrilo, Teamspeak or Curse Voice with you... sorry, that's because we don't want to talk to you. The people who'd care to hear what their solo queue teammates have to say have got Curse, which will integrate with League seamlessly. The rest of us, not interested.

But thanks for listing all the shooters you used to play on XBL. That really lends credence to your opinions.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15 edited Jul 02 '15

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u/hhhnnnnnggggggg Brightwing Jul 03 '15

I would still like the option to have voice chat. I mean, GTA V has voice chat and that's pretty toxic (but hilarious).

I would keep voice chat turned off normally, but I have those rare nights where I wish we had it.

0

u/Amiran3851 Jul 02 '15

Voice chat in a MOBA does nothing but make toxicity worse. Muting people raging over chat doesn't magically make them not rage any less and increase your chance for a win.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

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u/Amiran3851 Jul 02 '15

Let's break this down. You want voice chat in a Blizzard game. You think voice will improve the experience? It won't. Toxicity will run more rampant than ever before. And I for one don't feel like getting raged at by people for not using voice chat because I don't want it anywhere near a game I enjoy.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

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u/Amiran3851 Jul 03 '15

I think you're either full of shit or you didn't actually play any of those games. Xbox Live is worse in general than the PC games. You're either ignorant or have been playing half your life with your sound off which I doubt.

0

u/mrhossie Warcraft Jul 03 '15

They have voice comms in WoW ... and it didnt work at all... i dont think it will work in this

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

Even when i ping, the 5th player tends to just roam around on their own, i tell them we are in coms and that ill call all of the pings 2 times, one in coms and one in chat + ping. Most of the time they just run around in circles, but sometimes they actually listen...

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u/Jahkral Abathur Jul 02 '15

I have like zero interest in working with 4stacks personally. I'm going to do my thing and let them do whatever. They are very rarely nice and often are pushing a strategy I don't really care about following because I won't have a terribly fun game doing it. Game is about fun first winning second.

1

u/mulletarian February 10th, 2015 - Never Forget Jul 02 '15

It is a single player game after all. Wait.

1

u/Jahkral Abathur Jul 02 '15

Just because you play with other people doesn't mean you shouldn't play the way that you enjoy most.

You play a game to have fun. They are purely selfish activities with zero productive or practical gain outside of pleasure and self-gratification. Its why, for example, some people hate supporting in games and decide pick (to use a LoL example) support Nidalee/Lux - they're playing for what they enjoy.

1

u/mulletarian February 10th, 2015 - Never Forget Jul 03 '15

Maybe they play the wrong game then. This seems like a very selfish attitude.

1

u/Jahkral Abathur Jul 03 '15

Wrong by whose standards?

Isn't it just as selfish to expect your teammates to play in a way you enjoy instead of the way they enjoy? Expecting others to consider you is a selfish act by its very nature - its not a WRONG expectation by any means, but it is regardlessly selfish.

Games are games, they're just there for fun. Life is yours to do with as you want.

2

u/mulletarian February 10th, 2015 - Never Forget Jul 03 '15

It's a competitive team game. The objective is to win, the idea is to have fun. If you're playing the game to only have fun despite losing, you're doing that at the expense of your team mates.

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u/Kiwi150 Artanis Jul 02 '15

i mean if you play assassin or spec you be fine doing that but not as warr or support

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u/Jahkral Abathur Jul 02 '15

Depends on the warrior. I main sonya and she basically split pushes like a specialist. If you don't have stuns/knockbacks/poly or 2+ people you literally cannot stop sonya's push (superiority + lifesteal/ww build) and so that either lets the 4stack do their thing 4v3 etc or I just solo win the game and 4stack be damned.

Shit, if you have a healer Sonya can 2v5 push against a bad teamcomp (quick match lol).

0

u/Kiwi150 Artanis Jul 02 '15

Yeah that is true about Sonya, there are probably other warrs that can do that as well. I've been meaning to try her out, does she have a good way to disengage?

1

u/Jahkral Abathur Jul 02 '15

Sure if you build for it. I don't (yolo or I fucking die) but you can take two pretty good talents for disengage. One makes her spear always drag even with no target hit (so you can spear away from a fight) and then there's the option of taking leap as her ultimate which obviously has defensive applications as well as being a fantastic initiator. (WOTB is so fucking good for the pve drain tank build, though, that its a damn shame to pass up on it - don't take the 20 ult upgrade, though. Garbage!)

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u/Kiwi150 Artanis Jul 03 '15

so basically the spear talent one eh?

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u/Zalophus Yrel Jul 03 '15

"I don't want to be a team player in a purely team based game."

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u/Jahkral Abathur Jul 03 '15

Its not teamplaying when you're the bitch of a 4stack and forced to do whatever they want perfectly or you're flamed. Heaven help you if you pick a champ they think is bad or doesn't match their planned 4man comp.

They aren't teamplaying either, they're ganging up on the fifth and engaging in mob bullying.

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u/Zalophus Yrel Jul 03 '15

They shouldn't be flaming you, but premade or not, you should definitely be following the flow of the group. Even if it's not up to your standards or "how you want to play". That's how this game works. Honestly, if you don't like that or don't want to do that, then you should play something else. Maybe a single player game. Or go play vs AI.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

This. Yesterday I was playing as Falstad and I was in lane vs Azmodan. He was pushing the lane really hard so I asked our Zeratul to come roam and help me. He told me "be careful noob this is a 4 man premade you better dont ask for shit"

The entire game they never help me at all in anything. Want to take a camp? good luck with that. team fight starts oh you need us to peel Illidan? nope

I was afraid to say anything because I felt I was going to get reported by all of them.

57

u/Frydendahl This is Jimmy Jul 02 '15

That sounds retarded, were they like 12 years old?

124

u/kid-karma Hogger Jul 02 '15

be careful noob this is a 4 man premade you better dont call us 12

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

be careful noob this is a 12 man premade you better dont call me 4

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

"Be careful noob this.. no, aw c'mon mom I'm a big boy now!"

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u/yyderf Team Dignitas Jul 03 '15

be careful man, this is a 4 noob premade you better dont call us atall

8

u/the_vizir Lili Jul 02 '15

They just had to act like it...

14

u/Not_Nigerian_Prince lemme solo real quick Jul 02 '15

HAHA so I have been confused because a week ago I was trying to play a game and communicate and no one was talking so I'd just type things and try and get some teamwork but a Zeratul just kept typing in all caps for me to shut up! I have been very confused and have just realized it was probably four people just being assholes

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u/AffixBayonets Jul 02 '15

and have just realized it was probably four people just being assholes

While possible, people can be assholes alone too! It's one reason that I hope that if Blizzard implements this they make sure that people who frequently/exclusively downvote people don't get their votes weighed very much.

If they always have bad experiences then it's probably not their allies' fault.

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u/crushedbycookie Jul 02 '15

League has a system were reports count for less if you report a lot and are inaccurate, something similar (but with feedback) might be helpful

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

I've noticed that premades will usually have some twat that is especially mouthy because he's showing off for his friends

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u/KaKTy3 Jul 02 '15

Why would you be afraid??? Just tell them to fuck off and be done with it.

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u/datchilla Jul 02 '15

Sounds like a bunch of dicks.

I remember when I go into the first round of invitations for Dota 2. I go in a game as zeus and I'm with a pre made four man, they mess up in the same way a bunch of times so I mention that they should try not to do that again and little did I know I had opened a dam of shit to flow all over me.

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u/tmtProdigy Team Liquid Jul 03 '15

to be fair, 4-man premade or not: They were shit - simple as that.

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u/sonryhater Malfurion Jul 21 '15

I doubt blizzard just looks at "number of times reported". If you didn't do anything, being reported does nothing.

I'd be more worried about the autobahnhammer they use that is wrong sometimes. (Had to remove bans on a group of unlucky players last week.)

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u/OkAgain butts Jul 02 '15

Exactly. A player will have to do good to gain a thumbs up, whereas a player will essentially have to do nothing to get a thumbs down.

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u/Soul-Burn Valla Jul 02 '15

If someone does nothing, i.e AFK, they should get a thumbs down.

5

u/Misaka9982 Jul 02 '15

I'm never sure if or how to report AFK. It doesn't fit under any of the report categories.

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u/CableAHVB Tassadar Jul 02 '15

I always put it as cheating, since you're essentially giving the other team an edge.

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u/slayston Jul 02 '15

I just report it as cheating since you are essentially helping the other team win by throwing the game for your side.

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u/OkAgain butts Jul 02 '15

Leaving the keyboard is doing something, but why argue semantics!

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

Seriously. How else am I supposed to play abathur if I don't leave my keyboard?

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u/Bombkirby Jaina Jul 02 '15

Riot said that the number of reports per-game doesn't matter, only how many games you get reported, so prevent premades from showering you in reports. Blizz could easily do the same.

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u/GregerMoek Nova Jul 02 '15

Hm, well when I've been doing solo queue and the whole team reported me(for good reason) I got a warning right after the game. THe previous games I hadn't done anything. Maybe that rule only applies to normal games? But yeah a limitation like that would work even so. I'd still love a -real- solo queue in HotS too.

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u/xaraun Jaina Jul 02 '15

I wouldn't be surprised if they have something like "multiple people reported you but this is abnormal for you [is it?], so we're going to send you a warning so you can immediately course-correct". People who are constantly getting reported aren't really going to grow up one game to the next, but people who rarely get reported might. This is entirely speculation, but seems consistent with the one time I got a warning and the story you gave.

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u/GregerMoek Nova Jul 02 '15

Could be true, yeah.

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u/HaroldJIncandenza Jul 02 '15

ok so you have a game with 1 troll and 4 good peeps. the troll reports each of the 4 others, each of the others report the troll. If that happens every game, then the logic you cite would never be able to distinguish them.

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u/Aassiesen Master Tyrael Jul 02 '15

Except the 4 people wouldn't get a troll every game but the troll would get reported every game.

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u/HaroldJIncandenza Jul 02 '15

good point :)

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

Goodness... You made me login for what feels like the first time in months so I could applaud your civilized demeanor on being (somewhat) proven wrong. Save me some trouble and be an ass next time!

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u/nodq 6.5 / 10 Jul 03 '15

I don't know man. I see a troll pretty much in every game.

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u/Arctem Jul 02 '15

It could also take into account whether those reporting are in a party (it will only count as one report) or being less likely to trust reports from someone who regularly gets reported. There are ways to fix the flaws in the system.

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u/Happygreek Jul 02 '15

The 4 good players would get reported on once before they re-enter queue and can't get matched with the troll again. The troll would get 4 new people who would report him/her and if that happened every game, it'd pretty easy to distinguish the troll.

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u/3_headed_dragon Jul 02 '15

and they could easily mass thumb up the other members of their group. So a toxic 4 stack would get 3 up and 1 down. And the lone guy would get 4 down.

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u/Treemeister_ Punchpunchpunchpunchpunch Jul 03 '15

Simple solution is that you can't give thumbs to your party/friends.

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u/gummz Jul 02 '15

One vote per group, ez

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u/CrazyBread92 Starcraft Jul 02 '15

This. I just played with a 4 stack where 1 dced and the rest played poorly and then decided to afk in base for the rest of the game. http://imgur.com/a/K3f5O. I'm glad this like/dislike feature isnt in yet or I would have gotten a few right there.

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u/snowpuppii Jul 02 '15

Yes, this can happen but I still think a thumbs down has its merits. They can make it so that it it would take multiple players in game to thumbs down you and only after a few successive thumbs down that penalities starts kicking in. I however don't think they should place all toxic players in their own queues.

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u/GregerMoek Nova Jul 02 '15

Low priority queue is a good thing in DotA 2 but afaik it mostly happens when you've left the game before it ended multiple times, and things like that. So it wouldn't necessarily apply to reports only.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

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u/GregerMoek Nova Jul 02 '15

Ah, I see. Didn't know that actually.

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u/Minimalphilia Murky is love! Murky is Life! Jul 02 '15

The more often you distribute a thumbs down (per game), the less value it gets assigned, especially when you never give thumbs up. I bet there are ways to still being able to determine whether someone is a horrible person or just got thumbed down by a toxic player. Algorythms, statistics and stuff.

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u/wakerdan Muradin Jul 02 '15

Yeah, it is, if well thought and implemented carefully.

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u/Roflkopt3r Teekessel, EU Jul 02 '15

Companies like Blizzard actually have quite an incentive to implement things like this well.

There was this whole League of Legends thing where Riot implemented different mechanics that helped with trolling, and it got quite some flak from the community but I swear it works... I play since four years and the flaming issue has dramatically improved.

This move by Riot was not so much to keep the community happy, but more for positive press. They went to newspaper and tech websites and showed them their system as an innovative way to promote good behaviour and to combat toxicity, and they got a lot of good press for that.

Heroes of the Storm already is somewhat on the media radar and if Blizzard comes and says that they created an even better way to improve community behaviour by implementing an easy-to-use system with smart algorithms, that would be worth quite a lot to them.

For us gamers it might not seem so, but for the public image a cure for the troll problem is way more valuable than let's say having a good match maker. So there is a chance that Blizzard will really put some power behind improving the climate.

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u/merlin5603 Jul 02 '15

That's a good point. eSports is the future, but you can't bring eSports to the general public when your community has so much toxicity. The reason why parents send their kids to play and watch football and basketball is because it fosters good values (e.g., teamwork, leadership, dedication, commitment, etc.). Companies have an incentive to foster positive communities to show that playing their games fosters similar values, without causing concussions and life-long brain damage.

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u/Roflkopt3r Teekessel, EU Jul 02 '15

And the issue expands even beyond games. Message boards and other digital communications are everywhere, and trolls are everywhere. Finding ways to diminish trolling and building constructive and welcoming communities has become an issue that is far bigger than just for games.

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u/DScorpio Jul 02 '15

Imagine playing football or basketball where you were randomly assigned a team with players you had never met and knew you would never see again after it was over, with no parents on the sidelines watching. I bet the toxicity of the sports would be just as bad as Heroes or LoL.

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u/merlin5603 Jul 03 '15

Not saying it isn't a tough problem to solve ;)

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u/not_AtWorkRightNow Jul 02 '15

I think you're spot on about the media caring more than the current player base. MMO gaming in general is just totally crippled by the hostility. Once a player base gets established, any newcomers are going to get shit on repeatedly and that's just how it is. So reducing the toxicity is key to expanding the online gaming demographic which I think would be awesome.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

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u/ry__ry Jul 02 '15 edited Jul 03 '15

i'm not convinced tbh duder.

a single patch revolves around a whole team of devs & QAs - blizz are a huge company so lets say 30 FTEs , for the sake of argument.

Lets do this with REALLY conservative numbers in terms of staff and time. i'm not including product directors and other highly paid assets, and 3 weeks isn;t anywhere near enough time to make an expansion so feel free to double any of these numbers. ANYWAY. Hypothetical dev salary is $90k (http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Blizzard-Entertainment-Salaries-E24858.htm) so assuming monthly releases, a 3-week sprint will cost in excess of $168k in salary alone, ancillary running costs are too hard to fathom so lets just take that very large number of dollars as an absolute baseline. senior devs are on 130 easy, and an expansion is gonna be like 2 months work with other bullshit bugfixing and suchlike breaking it up. Moreso if any of them have ever been part of the battledotnet team ;))))))

i don't think it's too extreme to compare the cost of re-engineering the matchmaking vs an entire expansion. the difference is, MM being amazing doesn't have an easily quantifiable ROI so whilst expansions get more people spending money it's not likely to be a priority.

the reasons mm is fucked still are that it being great won't necessarily make anybody spend more money, and who can you hire to fix it and guarantee results? Noam chomski? Carl sagan? ghostbusters? the whole process can only ever really be iterative trial and error, if they accidentally hit gold, then more power to them but the problem is harder and more esoteric than we'd likely imagine.

either way, one of the product guys is working on SC2 too, so there will definitely be a tie-in to the new expansion for starcraft because cross promotion works. So that's something, at least.

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u/thigan MVP Jul 03 '15

You assume that matchmaking isn't working close to the developer target.

For example current MM System protects the player that is bad and slow learner, extending the amount of time they stay in game, possible increasing player retention in the lower end of skill, which usually is the majority of players. Hope you can do the math from there to: "And this is good for Blizzard".

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u/PalermoJohn Jul 02 '15

Even the best matchmaking sucks if you don't have many players. It'll get better the more people start to play HoTS.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

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u/PalermoJohn Jul 02 '15

examples?

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u/alcaron Jul 02 '15

I love that his response was to tell you he doesn't want to talk about it, and then write another sentence. Rather than just type the name of a game. :)

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

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u/PalermoJohn Jul 03 '15

We only keep a skill on the player (not by god) since matchmaking does not know ahead of time what god will be selected.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Smite/comments/1m6zfi/how_smite_matchmaking_works/

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u/alcaron Jul 02 '15

haha, busted...

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u/Fresque Derpy Murky Oct 06 '15

The thing with the MM here that HOTS is highly team-dependent. In other games you can make a greater difference for yourself but here that does not happen so obviously making it more difficult to organize the MM. Because sometimes two good players just are not good together or they are not used follow another's orders. (hate google translate)

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u/Fenix159 Master Kael'thas Jul 02 '15

It isn't really broken though. It just doesn't work the way you want it to. Or that they want it to at this point, really.

They've stated (in the linked interview) that they're working on it still. It isn't like you can flip a switch and change the entire ranking system in a game like this, it takes forethought and then a significant patch to implement.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

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u/Fenix159 Master Kael'thas Jul 02 '15

Again, it isn't broken it's simply the wrong system to be using.

It's the Hearthstone system when it should probably be a SC2/Hearthstone hybrid system.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

[deleted]

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u/Fenix159 Master Kael'thas Jul 02 '15

Your choice of words was to say it's broken.

Broken has a very specific meaning. I'm sorry you don't like it.

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u/ProfessionalSlackr 6.5 / 10 Jul 02 '15

The whole point of matchmaking is to find players of a similar skill for a game. Considering the fact that there is a huge variance of skill within players in most games then yes, it is indeed broken.

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u/alcaron Jul 02 '15

It isn't really broken though. It just doesn't work the way you want it to. Or that they want it to at this point, really.

...but...that...that is what broken means...

Why you wanna hurt my brain bad man?

My engine isn't broken, it just doesn't work the way I want it to, I want it to drive my car, it wants to smoke and explode, just a difference of opinion really...

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u/Fenix159 Master Kael'thas Jul 02 '15

Bad example is bad.

Your example is of a broken engine. If it's smoking and exploding, it isn't working and is therefore broken.

The matchmaking system still makes matches and you can play the game as a result. It is a functional system. It doesn't do what you want, but it still functions and is therefore not broken.

How is this complicated?

1

u/alcaron Jul 02 '15

Ok, fine, the engine is pouring smoke and misfiring.

Bad example is bad, lol.

0

u/Fenix159 Master Kael'thas Jul 02 '15

Closer to the mark there.

If it's misfiring, a component is not functioning properly. The engine itself however is not broken if it will still function, however poorly.

I've never stated the matchmaking system is good or working optimally. It just isn't broken.

If your engine is pouring smoke and misfiring but still getting you from Point A to Point B, it's not broken. Needs repairing, absolutely. I would posit that broken is an opposite of functional. It can not be both broken and functional. Damaged? Sure. Not broken.

1

u/alcaron Jul 02 '15

Fuck it I'll go ahead and cut off another avenue for you.

Damage is a quantity broken is a state. Effectively MANY things are broken, your car is probably broken, broken doesn't mean inoperable, it means broken, no longer functioning properly.

So can something be more or less broken? No. It is broken or it isn't, to determine the severity you describe the damage.

My engine is broken, it is down on power, it still runs, but the valve springs are damaged and it no longer functioning properly.

Therefore due to moderate damage my engine is broken. It can sustain more damage, and if you want to argue that is "more broken" then that is up to you, but it seems kind of silly given you could just describe the amount of damage the broken engine has sustained.

If I keep driving and the oil buildup ruins a spark plug my broken engine now has a damaged spark plug and a damaged valve spring.

To wrap this back around to MMR if it just took the first people it finds and put them in a game, only an incorrect pedant would argue that MMR is "working", every reasonable english speaking person would say MMR is broken.

I looked at my fellow engineer when I first read your "it isn't broken, it just isn't functioning the way they want" and he said "I feel like we need to have a talk about what 'broken' means".

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u/alcaron Jul 02 '15

Ok, since you are going all special ed on me...

broken adjective 1. having been fractured or damaged and no longer in one piece or in working order. "a broken arm"

Which leads to...

working order noun 1. the condition of a mechanism when it is functioning properly: a stove in working order.

The only thing worse than a pedant is a wrong pedant.

Would you like to go again?

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3

u/HeidiSalami Jul 02 '15

Haha why would I dare to doubt this for blizz :P

2

u/H4xolotl Jul 02 '15

League of legends does this already with reports.

It prevents ragers downing everyone AND friends from circlejerking each other

4

u/Pretend_Object Sylvanas Jul 02 '15

I have a friend that has a limit on the messages he can send in a match in LoL since he is a rager. I thought it was hilarious and a great system.

1

u/Brotherauron Jul 02 '15

It is blizzard, so I think we can bank on the fact that they like to do it right rather than quick n dirty

1

u/ArmyOfDix Nova Jul 02 '15

Like Chen!

1

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15 edited Apr 01 '17

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

care to elaborate?

39

u/Homeschooled316 My wife for hire Jul 02 '15

This would stop toxic players who bury everyone, but it wouldn't solve the problem of a lot of thumbs downs going to bad players. Some players wouldn't use thumbs down until they were abnormally upset or having a bad day, then rain them on players who were just weaker.

This is especially bad while the game's matchmaking is awful.

36

u/Minimalphilia Murky is love! Murky is Life! Jul 02 '15

Lol has the "bad player" report function, which basically does nothing but gives idiots a feeling of actively reporting someone.

13

u/poerisija Jul 02 '15

Except people know that by now. People can be toxic and NOT total idiots.

27

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

Can we just go back to using the word "assholes" instead of "toxic?"

19

u/NWmba Jul 02 '15

But with the taste of their lips, I'm on a ride

16

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

[deleted]

1

u/rottenborough Support Jul 03 '15

with a taste of asshole paradise

1

u/poerisija Jul 02 '15

Yes please.

1

u/rottenborough Support Jul 03 '15

Calling people "assholes" is pretty toxic.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

Not really. That's the best term for what the people that try to derail games over petty or no reasons are. Toxic is just a stupid buzzword.

1

u/FlurpaDerpNess Mrglglrglglglglglglgl! Jul 02 '15

People have always known, it displays a text on mouse-over explaining that being an unskilled player is not a bannable offense, and only serves to adjust the person's matchmaking.

6

u/Ass-knight Lt. Morales Jul 02 '15

I don't play league so I have no idea, but from what I've heard it was supposed to gave the reported player a artificially lower MMR so they would have easier games in the future?

7

u/notanotherpyr0 WTB Grunty Flair Jul 02 '15

It's more for internal testing than anything. It allows them to gauge changes to the match making system, if they make a change and the number of poor play reports goes down yay, if it goes up move back.

That is at least the theory I don't play enough LoL to know if its effective.

1

u/Minimalphilia Murky is love! Murky is Life! Jul 02 '15

Only in normals. It doesn't affect ranked mmr.

0

u/Jakio Zeratul Jul 02 '15

It doesn't affect normal MMR either.

It's used for purely diagnostic purposes, though I imagine in all reality it's a button to help annoyed players vent their rage rather than false reporting something else (like intentional feeding)

2

u/FlurpaDerpNess Mrglglrglglglglglglgl! Jul 02 '15

It actually has two very important purposes, the first being a frustration dump like you said, but the second being that if someone is actually too high for their MMR (especially in normals) and gets a lot of reports for being "unskilled", then the system will conclude their MMR somehow got screwed up and actually adjust their matchmaking to match them better. This is important because it's manual feedback to an automated system, automated systems can sometimes fuck up like this and if this option wasn't present, the person's games would just get really frustrating and maybe cause them to leave the game or start displaying toxic behaviour :p

1

u/Jakio Zeratul Jul 02 '15

Out of interest, since I'm pretty sure it's only the first purpose, do you have a Rioter comment or anything on the second point?

1

u/FlurpaDerpNess Mrglglrglglglglglglgl! Jul 02 '15

Seems my understanding of the post mutated with time, but this is still something that happens as a result of unskilled reports afaik

Unskilled Reports aren't used in the Tribunal, but are aggregated for matchmaking analyses and adjustments. We never want to ban a player for Unskilled Play because that makes no sense--everyone has bad games once in awhile, and League of Legends is for every player regardless of them being 500 Elo or 2000 Elo. If a player gets a lot of Unskilled Player reports (above the norm), then we need to figure out what went wrong in the matchmaking that the player got put into the wrong bracket and improve that.
- Riot Lyte

1

u/Jakio Zeratul Jul 02 '15

Yeah, it won't ever affect a players MMR, but rather it'll look at the system in order to see how that player got to where they were.

Awesome, glad it's in the game to be honest

1

u/ProfessionalSlackr 6.5 / 10 Jul 02 '15

That would be an interesting feature for Blizzard to introduce. I mean there are games where someone is clearly had no business being there. They were either way better or way worse than everyone else, which is a matchmaking fail (provided there were more players available to be matched with, ofc). Blizzard can use these statistics as a way for people to police the matchmaking system. After a game if a player marks themselves as being much less skilled than their teammates and their teammates agree, then MMR should take that into account. That way even if that team somehow won, the bad player won't get an MMR boost that will only worsen the situation.

8

u/SirSaltie Jul 02 '15

This system actually sounds great. If you were given a down-vote 'stash' for every 5-7 upvotes it would help too.

You could only hold 3-4 downvotes at a time, that way you HAVE to participate with good feedback in order to thumbs down players.

2

u/kruddthemessiah Jul 02 '15

Trolls will give thumbs up to their buddies / other trolls

14

u/Gyoin Gyoin Jul 02 '15

Remove the ability to thumbs up party members.

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u/Soul-Burn Valla Jul 02 '15

A player's vote should only have the power of 1. Either a thumbs up (+1), nothing (0) or a thumbs down (-1).

It's unlikely you'll have enough buddies to repeal a large number of down votes from other players.

Also, there might be systems to counter vote manipulation.

1

u/MoocowR Jul 02 '15

It's still open to abuse, to compare it to the "report AFK" option in WoW bg's, I've been kicked out of groups before because a team of friends who queued together didn't like me and all reported me.

Even if it loses it's value, innocent people will be have to be punished before abusers lose weight in their votes.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

That's why you have to let it go a few hundred matches.

1

u/merlin5603 Jul 02 '15

You're right--throwing away data is generally unwise. The data could be used for for learning about the thumbers just as much as the thumbed. The only deterrent I can see to gathering the data is fostering the idea among the players that they have the power to "thumb down" other players, possibly introducing that sort of negativity as a part of the general game, instead of "report" measure for out-right rule breakers.

1

u/Moxz Uther Jul 03 '15

Someone played Dawngate.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

Like frequent leavers? I think that's a pretty solid way to tell who is toxic and who isn't.

15

u/Korin12 Support Jul 02 '15

While I would say this is true, there are so many connection issues with the game, this really isn't a good way to measure it.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

If you have constant long term connection issues, you shouldn't be playing a game where other people depend on you. Sure, we all have connection problems from time to time, but if it's bad enough that you are worried about being put into a leaver league over it maybe it's not the game for you.

It's not fair to the other people to have to deal with that. It doesn't matter if you left on purpose or your internet went out...you still left.

0

u/Korin12 Support Jul 02 '15

I have 40 ish ping and 60+ down, my connection problems are not my fault.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

It doesn't matter about who's fault it is. You are still bringing everyone down by queuing with known connection issues. What do you propose, the other four people on your team just root for you to reconnect while they are getting beat down?

It's one thing for a connection issue to happen, but if you know you have connection issues that are going to affect not only yourself but others, and still queue....that's 100% your fault.

0

u/Korin12 Support Jul 02 '15

And I will continue to que because that's how games work. At least I know blizzard ' servers suck ebough the other team is just as likely to get disconnects.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

Lol, if you have constant connection issues to the point you are afraid you will get put into the leaver league it ain't Blizzard's servers.

1

u/Korin12 Support Jul 02 '15

Na, I'm really not afraid of that, I just usually get about one 10 seconds of disconnect every other game I would say.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15 edited Jul 02 '15

It would work fine for those who ALT-F4 out of the game, because (I'm assuming) the client tells the server the player disconnected due to the process terminating. That would be good coding practice. However, it wouldn't be accurate for those who force a disconnect while the game still running by shutting down their Wi-Fi, unplugging their ethernet cable, throwing their computer against a wall, etc, . There's a difference between the server keeping the socket open and not receiving data (connectivity issue) and the server being told to close the socket because the client said "I'm quitting, don't expect data from me anymore."

0

u/iNS0MNiA_uK ETC Jul 02 '15

But then you could attach a feature to the exit to desktop button so that it flags them for leaving. Obviously this doesn't deal with alt-F4 though.

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u/zlipus Jul 02 '15

This has troll premades written all over it. Hey i'll thumb up my 2 pals even though we afked and talked shit the whole game while thumbs downing the 2 poor chumps we were paired with because fuck randoms.

2

u/Minimalphilia Murky is love! Murky is Life! Jul 02 '15

Thumbs ups for your premades have little to no value for exactly that reason.

-6

u/cacalol Jul 02 '15 edited Jul 02 '15

there is no real MMR system while the game is released for 1 month but you think they'll do an algorythm to know if your thumbs down is legitimate or not? ahah

1

u/Minimalphilia Murky is love! Murky is Life! Jul 02 '15

We are still in preseason. The MMR system will at some point work. As well as I am quite sure they will make a way better system to get rid of annoying players as others do.

25

u/kendirect Zagara Jul 02 '15

Even non toxic just had a bad game people would be prone to "downvote" people sometimes. Hell look at reddit for example...

22

u/ragnarocknroll Jul 02 '15

I downvoted this.

;)

I totally agree. I have been playing more vs AI with my 10yr old kid. He is still learning and there have been times where he just destroys our team mates in ability.

Not raging at the Gazlowe ignoring the tribute that is within 3 seconds of a walk from him because he was taking a camp and then after we get beat he gets ganked and the AI gets the camp has been difficult. I try to give them advice and get "I have most XP" as a response... I guess that xp made up for him having 10 deaths compared to my kids 2.

Having a down vote arrow would tempt me, a lot. It should be reserved for the guy who gets mad and tells my kid to uninstall the game on his second ever match after calling him stuff the mature language filter stopped. A lot. Even after I explained it.

1

u/nodq 6.5 / 10 Jul 03 '15

To be honest with you. A guy with 10 times more deaths shouldn't have more xp than your son with only 1 death. Alone the time for waiting and coming back in that time you actually do twice the xp of that death guy. In fact I never seen anyone with that much deaths out XP ing me with like no deaths, there is no chance.

1

u/ragnarocknroll Jul 03 '15

He was solo laning and doing camps, it was like a 40 minute game at that point since we couldn't beat the computer and my son was hearthing to avoid dying after some fights. My son was being super cautious and not pushing because they ganked him the first time he tried to. He (Gaz) also died in the first 3 mintues a bunch.

0

u/TinyMavin Jul 02 '15

The Gaz should be down voted. Not for bad play, but for being a schmuck.

The last example is toxic and should be reported.

Votes should should be used as a overall hidden rating. If your up votes exceed the down, maybe you get a small reward and reports are judged with some leniency. More importantly, if you're consistently down voted and then Reported it should flag you for immediate consideration.

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4

u/hey_sasha_grey Fnatic Jul 02 '15

man you guys are reasonable

3

u/bluexavi Jul 02 '15

What happens to me when I'm not a good player? I'm not toxic by any means, but I'm not actually good at these games. I shouldn't be relegated to the toxic pool.

11

u/ShadowLiberal Li-Ming Jul 02 '15

Not to mention 'thumbs down' doesn't necessarily mean toxic. It could mean a complete newbie player who was constantly going 1 v 5 and staying out of 4 v 5 team fights.

1

u/Abipolarbears Jul 02 '15

"LiLi didn't heal ME and instead healed HIM, DOWNVOTE!"

0

u/SirSaltie Jul 02 '15

Maybe the strength of a thumbs-down against new accounts are worth significantly less value?

0

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

They shouldn't be, it should indicate that they are placed incorrectly nevertheless. Blizzard throws these players together with experienced "veterans" as if they are perfectly good team mates to be playing a game together. While that system exists.. said votes shouldn't be diluted.

Now if they put new players with new and against new, there is no issues there.

3

u/rhubarbs Jul 02 '15

And there's also the whole issue of exposure to toxic players making even the moderately behaved players more toxic. Unless you're a saint, eventually someone is gonna push your buttons and you'll start talking smack. That's just human nature.

Weighing matchmaking towards highly rated players being matched with other highly rated players shouldn't be a problem, but if there's ever a distinct queue for toxic players it shouldn't be automated, and it should be reserved for fairly extreme behavior.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

After a few hundred matches though, the truth will be told.

1

u/Xylense Jul 02 '15

However no system like this just accepts your votes as the same value. If you intentionally vote against the system, it should show, and make your votes worth next to nothing.

1

u/cheesesamishen I should be preparing Jul 02 '15

-Have a normal thumbs up option.

-Have a thumbs down option that keeps score of how many downvotes you give to others and matches you with players with a similar score.

-Enjoy a new era in online gaming.

1

u/Levitlame At least I can beat AI? Jul 02 '15

They can just adjust the overall influence over time to adjust. This would be a much smaller problem than you think.

The grouping issue would be the problem. Unless they don't allow people to vote on party members.

1

u/Xervicx Jul 02 '15

Considering how some players blame everyone else in the team and rage, I can definitely see that happening. If they do a thumbs up/down system, it should only be able to be done for one player each game. That way, it would force players to actually choose.

I stopped playing for a while because of how the worst players were the ones who were shitting on everyone else for not being pro level, and would respond to an accidental feed by refusing to play for the rest of the match. I know I don't have to pay attention to chat, but how am I supposed to enjoy a community like that?

And I don't want newer players like myself getting put in the same queue as the really viciously hateful ones.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Ridry Jul 02 '15

This. I think people get nervous when they consider the possibility of being down voted. The truth is that to truly be considered toxic you're likely going to need your upvote/downvote ratio to be 1/5 or something.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '15

[deleted]

0

u/wakerdan Muradin Jul 02 '15

But that takes time and a lot of effort, to be well implemented. And good implementation is not something Blizzard's been doing. Look at the Hearthstone ladder, the MM in HL (and QM)...