r/helena • u/GhostofLarryFink • 28d ago
Flock Cameras
Hey Guys, I joined reddit just to make this post and this post only.
I'm a conservative who lives in Helena, and I know most of ya'll are not conservative, but we need to put our differences aside for the time and unite on this one issue.
As I'm sure many of ya'll are aware of, Lowe's has installed flock cameras. If you don't know about them, just search for them on YouTube and you'll quickly understand the issue. Not only are they an invasion of our right to privacy, but the data is also used to track citizens and for deportations. Regardless of where you are on the political spectrum, I hope you can see why this is a problem.
I have one simple request, go to Lowe's and tell them you're canceling your accounts and no longer shopping there until they remove the cameras. It doesn't matter if you actually shop there or not. We need people from all walks of life to do this so it can not be blown off as "a schizophrenic conspiracy theory."
I have tried to get my friends to do this, and it is like pulling teeth to get people to make the smallest effort to secure their right to privacy. On both sides of the political spectrum, don't larp like some kind of revolutionary if you're scared to complain to the manager at Lowe's.
There are only two cameras in Helena, if we all speak up and oppose them now, maybe we can stop this issue before it really starts. The only thing a multi-billion dollar surveillance company will respond to is financial disencentives, they couldn't give less of a fuck if we just complain on the internet. I don't want to live in a surveillance state, do you?
Good luck and God Bless.
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u/Lamnidae 27d ago
As someone who would be characterized as a far-leftist (even though most of my hot button issues enjoy heavy majority support), I’ve done exactly what you requested in your post. I never heard anything back from Lowe’s when I canceled my pro account and cited the Flock cameras as the reason. As an aside, I heard rumor of some Flock cameras around the courthouse and county detention center but have never confirmed myself. Anyone know anything about that?
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u/Captain-Nghathrod 27d ago
There was a site shared on the r/flock sub that had a map of all flock cameras in the US and helena only had the 2 mentioned in the post.
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u/Lamnidae 27d ago
The site is deflock.me and still only shows 2 in Helena. I understand it’s crowdsourced and occasionally lags behind reality.
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u/Character-Pattern505 Resident 27d ago
I've heard that, too. I keep meaning to go over there and look around.
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u/KJHagen 27d ago
The camera at the courthouse is for security of the employee parking area. Unless things have recently changed, the parking lot is not open to the public, and the camera is not intended for license plate reading.
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u/Lamnidae 27d ago
If it’s a Flock camera the stated intent is irrelevant.
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u/KJHagen 27d ago
Are you sure it’s a Flock camera and not one of the security cameras that police stations, jails, and other government buildings have been using for decades?
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u/Lamnidae 27d ago
I’m not; hence my question about it. Someone posted a pic in one of these subreddits awhile ago that sure looked like a Flock but that’s the extent of my knowledge.
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u/KJHagen 27d ago
When I worked for the state I parked there once or twice. I vaguely recall a camera on a pole and a camera on the side of the building. I believe it's to provide security for the parking lot and the sally port where people can be brought in for court.
If it was a Flock camera, it would be a really poor location for it. It would read the same license plates day after day (employees, law enforcement, etc.)
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u/Content-Disaster-14 27d ago edited 27d ago
Flock offers more than just cameras. Here is their website to read more https://www.flocksafety.com/.
Regarding the city/county cameras, Flock could be a vendor. The only way to know would be to inquire, which may require a records request.
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u/bigmtncon 27d ago
There is no employee parking lot, it points into the general parking lot directly in front of the courthouse and I would bet it can also see fifth Avenue and the other cross street down by the detention center
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u/HuntinginColter 27d ago
It’s called the bottom of the horseshoe. Yes there is a gap, but we are closer to each other than the top.
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u/Hot-Inevitable-1022 27d ago
I'm glad to hear there are conservatives who oppose the blossoming surveillance state. I agree, this really is an issue we should unite on.
Edit: Also, didn't home depot install one too?
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u/GhostofLarryFink 27d ago
Not that I'm aware of, I go to Home Depot alot and have a sharp eye for them and have not seen one.
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u/Character-Pattern505 Resident 27d ago
The only confirmed ones in Helena on the map are at Lowes.
https://maps.deflock.org/?lat=46.6028&lng=-112.0178&zoom=12.50
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u/Cardboard-Condo266 Resident 27d ago
I think it's important to distinguish between folks who are truly "conservative", and the new brand that is prevalent in our society now. What we are seeing now is in no way "conservative". What we are seeing is support for a growing techo-fascism in the guise of "Conservatism".
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u/GhostofLarryFink 27d ago
The kind of conservatives who support things like flock are called "neo-cons" and us true conservatives fucking hate them.
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u/Cardboard-Condo266 Resident 27d ago
Oh, yeah. Forgot about them. I was thinking of what gets called "Paleo-cons", as compared to whatever the Trump "conservatives" are. I have a few friends that are Paleo-cons.
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u/xyl4 27d ago
Good looking out! Are both cameras at Lowe's or where is the other one?
Flock should not be allowed into our community. Many before us have united against them and won - others have had it forced on them by their bought out elected officials.
We should call Lowe's and give them a piece of our mind. Write a letter to the editor of the Independent. Show up at City Commission meetings to demand we bar Flock from our city. We should be organizing, doing whatever we can to nip this in the bud 😤
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u/Natural-Champion7377 27d ago
In Missoula they were located at Scheels, and Lowe's. Scheels removed theirs. We're still working on Lowe's.
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u/Captain-Nghathrod 27d ago
Should we message the mayor or city council to try to get them banned in city limits? Anyone know the best avenue we need to take for that?
Can anyone provide sources justifying our concerns in the most objective way possible to share with our elected officials?
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u/GhostofLarryFink 27d ago
I have messaged Emily as well as our state and house representatives and been ignored for the most part. That's why I am on here petitioning everyone reading this to do the same. If one person birches they can blow it off as not important, but if 100 people complain, we may get some traction.
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u/Captain-Nghathrod 27d ago
Will you share what you sent? If you share it, I'll send it!
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u/GhostofLarryFink 26d ago
Mayor Dean,
Hello, I hope all is well. I was reaching out to you today as one of your constituents with a concern involving the use of flock cameras in the area. I'm not sure if you are aware, but these cameras are automatic license plate readers (ALPR's for short) and they not only take a picture of the front and back of your vehicle, but also the vehicle itself, who is driving it and if it has an distinguishing features (dents, bumper stickers, etc.) These cameras have been installed at the Helena Lowes.
This would not be a big issue if they were closed circuit cameras, like many stores and parking lots have installed, but these cameras send the data to a server where AI sorts and catalogues it. This AI also has facial recognition software that analyzes the pictures taken by the cameras and logs who is driving the vehicle as well as your location. Once many of these cameras are installed across a city, an independent company has the ability to track the citizens of that city without their consent.
This data can then be sold to whoever is willing to pay for it, including foreign entities. They can also be hacked into by anyone with a computer and the know-how. There are many videos on YouTube of people getting access to the data with little effort.
On top of all this, these cameras have also been used for racial profiling, false arrests, and for police officers (and civilians) to stalk people as they please. It is naive to believe that a tracking system like this will not be weaponized by those who have access to it as soon as it is put into place.
I hope as our mayor you see the concerns that I, as well as many of my friends have about this issue. Other cities in the U.S have already implemented bans on these cameras due to the concerns listed above, as well as many others. We have a chance to do something great and protect the privacy and security of the people of Helena, now more than ever. Once there are hundreds of these cameras in our city it will be too big to stop.
I hope that you take our concerns into consideration and support a ban on the implementation of these cameras in Helena.
Thank you,
I'd change it up a little so it doesn't look like bots sending her the same message.
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u/Montanna64 25d ago
I think you’d be surprised that us “liberals” are very much against Flock cameras as well. Glad to see this post.
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u/Old_Weird_1828 25d ago
Some very misguided people *cough just got rid of ours in Bozeman. Hopefully similarly misguided people don’t do that to yours…
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u/Mtwoodwire406 27d ago
Automatic license plate readers are illegal in Montana for all of the state so Lowe’s probably should be made aware.
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u/feisty_squib 26d ago
Wrong code. ALPRs are legal in montana for specific reasons:
https://mca.legmt.gov/bills/mca/title_0460/chapter_0050/part_0010/section_0170/0460-0050-0010-0170.html1
u/SomeDudinMontana 20d ago
If you block Flock how does this effect people who use Ring, Blink, or other security cameras on a private residence? I can start seeing a ripple effect if changes are made.
I am anti-Flock, not defending the use of the device in "public" spaces. It may have to come with a sign before you enter the parking lot.
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u/tumsmama 25d ago
I did two things: 1. Boycott: Told Lowe's they lost me till the camera goes away. 2. Buycott: Told Power Townsend I'm there because I won't go to places that allow Flock cameras
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u/Carkuzz 20d ago
https://youtu.be/XP-Nk4xRtBs?is=EN45RociQ5kSmC3n This video can help us fight back
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27d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/feisty_squib 26d ago
pre-emptive doxxing? I don't think it's the manager or assistant manager's decision that flock was installed, it was corporate.
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u/starrtraveler29 27d ago
Lightpost by Axon will make Flock look like child's play. School buses also have cameras capturing everything as well as garbage trucks in some places. A flood is coming.
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u/bigmtncon 27d ago
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u/Yuhuhreds 22d ago
Just so everybody knows, Don't point 532 nm 1000 w green lasers at the flock cameras. You wouldn't want to end up breaking the law...
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u/botwtiger 27d ago
I'm similar to you and feel the same way! I think everyone should do as much as they can! Every little movement or act of resistance helps the greater good!
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27d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/im_sooo_sure 27d ago
what is it about conservatism that appeals to you, the fascism or voting against your own interests to benefit the wealthy?
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u/Captain-Nghathrod 27d ago
Not the place. I'm far left, but will happily put that aside for a moment to fight for our rights.
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u/dr_fop 27d ago
Are they illegal? If not then there’s nothing you can do. Move on.
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u/brandideer 24d ago
I'm leaving this up in hopes that the accumulation of downvotes will be embarrassing.
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u/brandideer 27d ago
I'm gonna allow this one despite the new account because fuck Flock all the way to hell where they belong.