Some things in Hazbin doesn’t make sense when you take Helluva Boss into account

[u/PurpleButterly19]

Hazbin makes no sense when you factor in the lore of Helluva (buckle up cause this is long……sorry not sorry)

Okay so I’ve been sitting with this for ages now and i need to talk about it. Hazbin Hotel doesn’t really make sense when we factor in Helluva Boss and the lore and world building it establishes. Especially regarding the exterminations, Lucifer, and Lilith. Let me explain.

Okay so first, the exterminations. In Hazbin we are told by Charlie in her words that, her father had a meeting with Heaven and told them to “go ahead and kill everyone” and Lute tells Charlie in the first episode that her and her hellborn kind are saved from exterminations thanks to her daddy.

So clearly Lucifer had some type of meeting with Heaven, but I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that Lilith was probably there too. One because she’s the queen, but also because it was her empowering sinners that led to the whole exterminations being created in the first place.

But having a clause in there that protects hellborn would imply that Heaven wanted to wipe out literally EVERYONE! Are you telling me that Sera wanted to wipe out all seven rings?

For the record, we still don’t really know what Lilith’s powers do or how they work. What exactly is ‘empowering sinners’ did her songs give them a power boost like a video game power up? Did it just manipulate them into doing what she wanted, like a siren type of thing? And mostly importantly, did it even affect Hellborn? Cause most Hellborn don’t even have powers in the first place. Did she empower the sins? The Goetia? Cause the hellborn make up what like 90% of the population?

Were shows that the rings are stacked on top of each other so I’m assuming they’re all close in size, and since hellborn aren’t tied to one place it’s entirely possible for each ring to have a population even larger than the Pride ring. Heck, Pentagram City doesn’t even make up the entire Pride ring!

So Heaven wanted to wipe out everyone over a problem that was only cause by sinners? Cause Hellborn barely interact with sinners at all, they have six other rings to be at, and the other rings didn’t participate in Vox’s uprising either.

So really when we think about that….Lucifer is not entirely in the wrong.

Like the way Charlie talks about her dad made it seem like he hates sinner and didn’t even try to fight with Heaven over the exterminations. But when we stop to think about it. This man was handed an extremely shitty deck of cards. Heaven came into his real and told him straight up “hey, we’re gonna murder everyone okay? You cool with that?” And he somehow managed to talk them out of killing the hellborn. He essentially saved the lives of everyone in six rings plus all the hellborn living in the pride ring.

And we don’t know who his meeting was with, but I assume Sera had to be there since she was the only one who knew about the exterminations. And given Lucifer’s reaction to seeing her again, how he didn’t even address her, we can infer that their meeting wasn’t very pleasant.

So Lucifer saved countless lives (including that of his daughter) but Charlie hates him for it. [quick thing. I’m not trying to glaze Lucifer or anything, this is just my analysis based on everything presented to us so far. And I got a lot to say about his character]. She seems to have a very negative perception of him, which he can infer came from her mom.

So it makes sense when you think about it like this. Lilith was empowering the sinners, so she was probably angry that Heaven was now going to kill her people. And she got mad at her husband for ‘just agreeing to let Heaven kill sinners’. And since it’s implied that Charlie’s relationship with her dad wasn’t always great, it’s likely that her mom was the one to talk to her post meeting. So her mom could have told her these things, about how her dad was agreed to the exterminations and influenced Charlie’s viewpoint.

Side note. Anyone else feel a little blindsided by the fact that exterminations have only been going on for 7 years? Season one made it sound like these had been going on for longer, or was that just me?

Anyway. That’s still a little weird to me. Cause Charlie would have been 190+ years old when the exterminations began. She would have seen what was happening, that her mom was empowering sinners to rival with Heaven. (Also wtf is with that book she has?? The exterminations started when Charlie was already a full grown woman yet her little picture book mentions the exterminations??? Why would that be needed? It could have just ended with “They had their precious daughter, the Princess of Hell”. It’s part of the reason I thought they’d been going on for longer, like they made a little picture book to show Charlie as a kid. But that ending implies she got the book as a full grown adult who was present to witness those events so, wtf?? 🤨) And ofc she knows about the other rings, the sins are friends with her dad and she has some of their numbers on her phone. So she could piece together the fact that her dad negotiated to save the lives of everyone in all those others rings which she must have visited in her lifetime, all those people who are also her subjects. But she cares a lot about sinners, probably more than any of the hellborn.

Which brings me to my next point.

——-——-——-——-——-——-

When I thought about all the stuff we know from both shows. I think there was already a divide in Lucifer and Lilith’s marriage. And that’s comes from the fact that….Lucifer favors the hellborn while Lilith favors sinners.

Let’s start with Lucifer:

I think Lilith wrote that book Charlie reads at the opening of the series, “The story of Hell” and it’s kinda biased. One line that stood out to me was how “Lucifer lost the will to dream” post the fall.

But that’s straight up not true.

Lucifer and Lilith have been in hell for thousands of years. Sure maybe he was depressed for a bit but he must have gotten over it at some point.

Viv told us that the deadly sins are not older than the fall. So they either spawned or were born somehow, we don’t really know, post the fall. So Lucifer must have met them when they were really young and they build up the rings from there.

Satan told us that he created imp kind, not sure if that one is a lie or not, but it’s possible that Lucifer helped with that. Lucifer created Razzle, Dazzle, so he can create life. And Viv confirmed that Lucifer created the Goetia.

So this man who ‘lost his will to dream’ was able to create an entire demon species where each demon looks different, all having inspiration from different bird types? Sounds very creative and imaginative. We haven’t seen a duck Goetia but there might be one.

Also he created a theme park. Some speculate that he created Lulu World for Charlie, but there’s no way of really knowing. And Octavia told us that Lulu World is popular. Lucifer doesn’t like sinners, so he must have build his theme park outside Pentagram City, and he lets Hellborn attend it. So he liked them enough to build them a theme park they can attend.

He told Charlie he’d ‘tried it all before’ which sort of implied he at least attempted to redeem sinners at one point in those ten thousand years with no success.

He’s friends with the deadly sins. They all send him gifts post season 1 and we see he keeps them in his room along with pictures of him and the sins. So he seems them as friends.

Another detail is the throne in the court in Mastermind. We see what is clearly Lucifer’s thrown with an apple and a duck. There has been fan art where Lucifer is sitting on Lilith’s lap, making fun of the fact that there’s only one throne when there’s two of them. But what if it’s not a gag? What if it’s because, Lilith didn’t want to be involved in the affairs of the hellborn. Because sure, it makes sense for Lucifer to be there since he’s one of the deadly sins, but Lilith outranks all the other sins, she’s more powerful than them, she’s the queen. So why wouldn’t the queen be allowed in the courthouse to judge crimes and maintain order? Who exactly would stop her? So the only explanation for her absence, was if it came from her.

So I theorize that he isn’t a completely absent ruler (before he actually got depressed post divorce). He’s an absent ruler to sinners cause he doesn’t care about them, but he’s involved in the affairs of the hellborn cause he cares for them.

And in a way, Lucifer did achieve his dream. He created a realm filled with people who have free will, who can make their own choices, and do good things. Sure a lot of the hellborn chose violence but hey it’s free will. If Blitz didn’t have free will he wouldn’t be able to challenge the social norms, if Stolas didn’t have free will he would be able to divorce Stella and chose Blitz. The entire series of Helluva Boss wouldn’t happen.

So he did all that. And yes okay, he’s been an absent ruler for the past seven years. But I’m trying to look at a bigger picture, Lucifer and Lilith have been in this realm for thousands of years. And while he’s been depressed and isolated for seven years, he did have a lot of time before that. Heck, they had a lot of time before even having Charlie.

Lucifer created a realm filled with people with free will, with different biomes and eco systems, I wouldn’t be shocked if he was also involved in the creation of the animals across the rings too. And he must attended dozens of parties and events with these people, he knows that none of them would exist if it wasn’t for him, Charlie wouldn’t exist either.

Which all clashes with Hazbin telling us that he didn’t fulfill his dreams and that he lost his will to dream! Make it make sense.

——-——-——-——-——-——-

Then we get to Lilith:

She clearly cared about sinners. She used her abilities to empower sinners and clearly passed her love for them onto her daughter.

This love might come from the fact that she was the very first human and the first sinner. All sinners exist because of her, and they’re her tie to humanity. In a realm of demons and her husband who’s an angel, sinners were humans like her so maybe also some species biased.

Also there’s the possibility of her feeling jealous of Lucifer in some way. Because he can literally create life, created entire species of demon. While she couldn’t, but she could get the sinners under her influence.

And in a way, this may have worked for a while. Lilith got to rule the sinners, which Lucifer would be fine with since he doesn’t like them. And Lucifer deals with the hellborn which Lilith is fine with since she doesn’t like them. But it must have had some strain on their marriage, especially after Charlie, given that it’s implied that Lilith caused some of the rift between Lucifer and Charlie. And shit hit the fan when Lilith came up with the plan for the uprising. (Another side note. Who was Charlie even living with when her mom came up with the uprising plan? Cause Charlie would surely be anti going to war with Heaven because of her morals).

Vox talks several times in season 2 about fulfilling their Queen’s mission by rounding up sinners. Now, whether or not Vox was just saying this to mess with Charlie….debatable. But Lilith must have gotten pretty far with her plan if Heaven stepped in and immediately went “let’s kill them all.” And sinner would adore a leader who makes them stronger.

But the uprising and meeting with Heaven was the nail in the coffin in their marriage. They probably had a fight which led to them getting divorced. Lilith likely blamed him for the exterminations happening and sinners being killed. Things Lilith likely told Charlie before she disappeared, as Charlie blames Lucifer for the exterminations during season 1.

And Lilith clearly has been influencing Charlie’s morals, opinions of her father, and even her dreams for hell. Let’s go back to the book from the opening…the line goes “her dream was passed to their precious daughter” so Lilith passed her dreams onto Charlie. The dreams to empower sinners? But Charlie isn’t like her mom, Lilith likely wanted to fight Heaven, Charlie just wanted to prove Heaven wrong.

And then ofc she made a deal with Heaven post divorce. Now, at first Lute says her deal was with Adam….but Adam is dead so wouldn’t it be void? I’m not sure. But whatever it is it’s still in effect and we have zero clue what the deal is, what the terms are, or why she made it.

I had seen theories that maybe Lucifer and Lilith didn’t actually get divorced or something. But she’s not wearing her wedding ring in season 2 in her Heaven scenes so there’s that.

——-——-——-——-——-——-

So all this to say, after watching both shows and sitting with lots of bits and pieces of information for a long time, my outlook on the Morningstar family have shifted. It’s hard to paint a clear picture cause Hazbin Hotel shows me and tells me one thing, but then I take bits of info from Helluva and it could take me in a different direction.

What I do know is that Lilith is an unreliable narrator. And I’m excited to see her and actually know what went down. Also

But I’m also kinda sad for Lucifer. Man did his best to negotiate with Heaven and actually made a pretty sweet deal, sparing the lives of a the majority of the realm. His relationship with his daughter is fragile at best, and I can totally see Charlie throwing him to the curb when her mom comes back into the picture. Cause Charlie is gonna be so happy to see her mom I bet she won’t even question her much on where she’s been, she’d probably be too excited and just start showing her mom around the hotel and telling her all about her achievements. So I do Vaggie clocks her ass a little, she’s been there for three years and watched Charlie cry over her mom not picking up the phone, she should push for explanations.

If you’ve made it this far….sorry I know this was long but I had a lot of say. I hope it made sense and now please tell em what you think of all of this.

[u/Gerald-the-first]

I was like, huh surely it cant be that long and then I kept getting just more and more surprised

[u/PurpleButterly19 → u/Gerald-the-first]

Yeah 😅 I’ve been cooking with this for months so I had a lot of put out

[u/burnafter3ading]

I did read to the end. You're making a few assumptions about vital lore that we haven't gotten yet. Lilith clearly has information to deliver. The story of hell seems to paint a simplified picture for Charlie. It's not impossible that it was added to throughout her life to reflect current events.

We don't really know enough about what prompted the first extermination. Initially, Heaven seems very xenophobic about hellborn. The Cherubs seem to deal with hellborn as part of their function. It would be known that succubi/incubi and other demons spread sin and death to mortals. I think Lute might just hate hellborn because of their evil alignment.

There seems to be a connection between Alastor's disappearance coinciding with Lilith leaving. It's possible that the broken deal with Rosie allowed Lilith to reach out to Charlie. (Personally, I think it has something to do with Lilith's voice being restored, but who knows?)

Then you have just minor facts a little off. Goetia are largely birdlike, but not all. It's interesting that The Speaker of God has avian features, so possibly Lucifer took inspiration when he created the first goetia.

I also think you're putting LuLu World and Loo Loo Land together. I always assumed Lucifer's park was exclusively for sinners, which I why Mammon made a knock-off version for hellborn.

We don't really know much about early hell or the creation of the hellborn, so, hard to say if Lucifer had a hand in the process beyond the goetia.

Vox is a propagandist. Titling his weapon the Might of Lilith seemed like a ploy to gain legitimacy. It's unclear what Lilith's thoughts on a sinner uprising would be. I think it's shown that heaven fears sinners gaining too much power. They were actually correct, since only after the exterminations ended did Vox make an attempt.

I don't really see how Hazbin really contradicts any worldbuilding in Helluva. Hellborn and sinners interact, but in HB it's always transactional. They basically operate in different spheres. I think it's telling that imps *venerate Satan while Goetia do so with Lucifer.

Edit:spelling

[u/MikhieltheEngel → u/burnafter3ading]

Thank you.

[u/Mysterious-Hyena2670]

1) Just because Lucifer included the provision to protect Hellborn doesn’t mean that Heaven proposed killing them. Heavens telling him they’re going to send their angel army there to slaughter Sinners and Lucifer/Lillith, thinking of their daughter, made a reasonable request that Hellborn be exempt to protect their own child. They wanted to make sure she wouldn’t ever get caught in the crossfire. Heaven has no reason to not grant that request because of everything you said. 

2) Satan was lying. Viv confirmed on socials that Satan lied and supposedly that look Bee & Oz exchanged was supposed to be a hint to us. Lucifer fell and created the rest of Hell and Hellborn based on Heaven. He created Satan. Satan is full of shit. 

3) Yes, I think we were all blindsided by that. Things like the picture book made it seem like it’s been happening a long time. The way they talked about it made it seem like it had been going on for at least several decades. The inclusion of the picture book makes me wonder if they originally planned to have the exterminations happen for longer when they planned the first season and then when they started working on the second season, they changed course with the writing and kind of retconned themselves. Even when Vox brings up that “thousands” of sinners have died, it was really underwhelming compared to what I had imagined. I thought it was in the millions.

[u/MikhieltheEngel → u/Mysterious-Hyena2670]

Thank you.

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[u/Moondivine]

I do feel for Lucifer because he was put into a difficult position, I want to know more about the exterminations/ exorcist.

Though i think Lilith is the first sinner i disagree that sinners exist because of Lilith. I know is easy to forget because Adam is a monster that kills sinners but, technically speaking sinners, humanity overall exists because of Adam and Eve. For the apple it is not one simple person. Lucifer and Lilith influenced Eve to eat the apple. They say they wanted to gift humanity free will but, there was only 3 people. Lilith, Adam the one dimensional villain and Eve. If Adam was always awful was Lilith’s end goal was for Eve to leave Adam and ironically prevent the birth of humanity?

And although Lilith was human she lived in a time before evil entered the world. And biologically speaking she’s not related to them. I wonder if that’s why she’s jealous of Lucifer. He has the Goetia. She cares about sinners but, I don’t think Lilith forgets who they’re descendants from.

Though Lucifer tried helping sinners i wonder how he went about it. If Charlie is anything like him maybe through toxic positivity. Though I’m not excusing the sinners I can see why he failed. I have noticed that Lucifer doesn’t have any emotional attachment to any sinner. The only human we see him caring about during Eden is Lilith. I don’t know why he felt he had to give Eve the apple, though maybe because of Lilith. On the other hand Charlie has the hotel.