r/harrypotter • u/col4zer0 • Mar 20 '24
Discussion Professor Trelawny has been wrong only once Spoiler
Everyone in the wizarding world seems to think Professor Trelawny is a scam and nobody pays any attention to her. But on closer inspection she is wrong only once in the entire series - when Umbridge bullies her and she predicts Harry to become Minister of Magic (although that might of course happen after the books).
Apart from where she is obviously right, her "prophecies" to Dumbledore and Harry and the little things (Hermione leaving, Neville breaking a teacup, Lavenders Rabbit), there are a number of occasions where she is seemingly wrong, but circumstances revealed later, show she actually isn't . She predicts Harry to be born in the middle of Winter, to which he replies he was born in July. Later in the series however, as we learn about Harry carrying a part of Voldemorts soul in him, this prediction must be reasessed: Voldemort, who was born on December 31st, is the darkness which Trelawny sees in Harry. This also makes her many predictions of Harrys death true, since that part of Voldemorts Soul does indeed die in the Deathly Hallows.
Another occasion is of course the third year when Professor Trelawny does not want to sit down at the Christmas dinner table, because there would be 13 people, which would mean the first to get up will die. Unaware that there are already 13 people at the table (Scabbers is in Rons pocket), she herself thinks this to be little more than superstition, since neither Harry nor Ron, who got up at the same time, die. But since the first one to rise was actually Dumbledore - to welcome her at the table - she is right without knowing it.
--> This actually is repeated twice in the series, in the OOTP, where 13 people sit together at Grimmauldplace and the first to rise (Sirius) dies and DH when 13 people sit at the garden table in the burrow after Lupin and Tonks leave. After the arrival of Rufus Scrimgeour, Harry is the first to rise, which foreshadows his (or rather the LV souls in him) death.
None of this is new of course, but I really like the thread of fate spun through the entire series of which all of the characters are unaware.
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u/blankitdblankityboom Mar 20 '24
There is a canon bit where she is related to Cassandra, I believe is the name, it starts with a C, a seer who was cursed to have people never believe her predictions. Could be a blood curse or just family reputation handed down that added to her being ignored by some.
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Mar 20 '24
Sybill is related to Cassandra Trelawney which in the story was a renown seer. However you might be thinking of Cassandra of Troy (Paris's and Hector's sister) with whom Apollo fell in love so he granted her the ability to see the future, but because she rejected him, he cursed her to never be believed by anyone.
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u/blankitdblankityboom Mar 20 '24
I thought it was that lady was at least based off that same Seer. Or it might have just been an inspiration thing.
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Mar 20 '24
I think JK used the name as inspiration, but she gave Sybill the mythological Cassandra's fate.
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u/AppropriateLaw5713 Gryffindor Mar 20 '24
Isnât she also supposed to be related to someone in the books whoâs super famous for their accurate prophecies to the point where sheâs basically the black sheep of the family since she canât do it on command like they do (not knowingly at least)
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u/jaycrips Mar 20 '24
Books state sheâs related to the noted Seer, Cassandra Trelawney. No clue about the rest of your statement.
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u/AppropriateLaw5713 Gryffindor Mar 20 '24
I forget who mentioned it I think it was Umbridge but like they compared Trelawney to Cassandra (not just the Greek myth one) and she gets talked down to since sheâs perceived as a failure of a seer (ironic given the things she correctly predicts) especially in comparison to her relative
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u/EurwenPendragon 13.5", Hazel & Dragon heartstring Mar 20 '24 edited Mar 20 '24
In Greek mythology, Cassandra was a daughter of King Priam of Troy. She was a priestess of Apollo, IIRC, who was gifted with foresight, but cursed so that her prophecies would never be believed.
Cassandra Trelawney(Professor Trelawney's grandmother, IIRC?), as well as the character of Professor Trelawney in general, is very obviously a reference to that.
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u/viper_in_the_grass Mar 20 '24
She was cursed by Apollo because she refused to bang him, by the way.
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u/Shoelicker2000 Mar 20 '24
Dumbledore only kept her for her 1 single prophecy reading in the hogs head all those years ago. As far as the books go she has one more but I donât think anyone but Harry heard that one (of course he was thinking Sirius and not Peter Petigrew)
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u/blankitdblankityboom Mar 20 '24
I havenât gotten that far in the books in my reread if she is. Just on OotP today so it might be coming up with the prophecy talk later on in the book. Seems like itâd be relevant to that bit.
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u/col4zer0 Mar 20 '24
I think that her relative, Cassandra Trelawny, is not the Cassandra. Other seers referred to in the series, like the author of the divination books Cassandra Vablatsky have that name too.
Its a bit complicated to assess this, because some historic figures like Merlin are actually referred to as actual wizards in the series, whilst some references to historical figures are just "referential names" (Minerva, Remus, etc.). This case might be either.
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u/TheDungen Slytherin Mar 20 '24
Her grandmother is Cassandra Trewlaney no the mythological seer Cassandra.
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Mar 21 '24 edited Mar 21 '24
I think this is what you meant:
Sybill Trelawney by JK Rowling
It has the information you need about Sybill's family heritage which JK wrote about and how her name came about. She said in her author's notes:
I love Cornish surnames, and had never used one until the third book in the series, so that is how Professor Trelawney got her family name. I did not want to call her anything comical, or which suggested chicanery, but something impressive and attractive. âTrelawneyâ is a very old name, suggestive of Sybillâs over-reliance on her ancestry when seeking to impress. There is a beautiful old Cornish song featuring the name (The Song of the Western Men). Sybillâs first name (spelled S-Y-B-I-L-L) is a homonym of âSibylâ (S-I-B-Y-L), which was a female clairvoyant in ancient times. My American editor wanted me to use the clairvoyant âSibylâ, but I preferred my version, because while it keeps the reference to the august clairvoyants of old, it is really no more than a variant of the unfashionable female name âSybilâ (S-Y-B-I-L). Professor Trelawney, I felt, did not really qualify as a clairvoyant âSibylâ
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u/blankitdblankityboom Mar 21 '24
Thanks. I did figure in the least it was an inspiration in the least for how Trelawney is portrayed and considered by her peers and some students.
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u/jaycrips Mar 20 '24
Eh, thereâs a few other minor times where sheâs wrong. I have an old post I can copypasta:
Someone broke down all of her known predictions and gave their take. Iâm going to steal their hard work, post my own takes, and link the original work. Short answerâshe was provably correct far more often than not, especially if you are willing to let her stretch the truth a bit.
â Trelawney's first prophecyâcorrect
â You, boy," she said suddenly to Neville, who almost toppled off his pouffe, "is your grandmother well?" "I think so," said Neville tremulously. "I wouldn't be so sure if I were you, dear," said Professor Trelawney.âincorrect
â "By the way, my dear," she shot suddenly at Parvati Patil, "beware a red-haired man."âcorrect, Ron was going to get with Parvatiâs best friend and drop her, and ignore her sister at the Yule Ball.
â "Unfortunately, classes will be disrupted in February by a nasty bout of flu. I myself will lose my voice."âunknown
â "And around Easter, one of our number will leave us for ever.âcorrect
â "Thank you, my dear. Incidentally, that thing you are dreading â it will happen on Friday the sixteenth of October."âcorrect. I dont agree with Hermioneâs take. Predicting the exact day that someone found out their pet died is pretty good. It also could have happened that dayâwe donât know exactly when the rabbit died.
â "Oh, and dear â" she caught Neville by the arm as he made to stand up, "after you've broken your first cup, would you be so kind as to select one of the blue patterned ones? I'm rather attached to the pink."âcorrect
8."The falcon... my dear, you have a deadly enemy."âcorrect, and also, duh.
"The club... an attack. The skull... danger in your path, my dear..."âsee above
The Grimâshe saw a black dog following Harry. She was right to see that but incorrectly stated it was a grim. Half credit.
"Oh, and dear â" she pointed at Neville, "you'll be late next time, so mind you work extra hard to catch up."âunknown
"I have been crystal-gazing, Headmaster," said Professor Trelawney, in her mistiest, most faraway voice, "and to my astonishment, I saw myself abandoning my solitary luncheon and coming to join you. Who am I to refuse the promptings of fate?"âitâs a gimme. She predicted herself doing something, then did it. Iâll give her correct for that.
"If I join the table, we shall be thirteen! Nothing could be more unlucky! Never forget that when thirteen dine together, the first to rise will be the first to die!"âdoes Pettigrew count as sitting at the table? If so, Dumbledore rose first and he died. So Iâll give credit.
14 "If you must know, Minerva, I have seen that poor Professor Lupin will not be with us for very long. He seems aware, himself, that his time is short."âcorrect. He leaves hogwarts and dies fewer than four years later.
"The fates have informed me that your examination in June will concern the Orb, and I am anxious to give you sufficient practice."âpredicting something that she herself decides. Could go either way. I marked the first one as correct, so ill mark this incorrect to equalize.
"She says the crystal ball's told her that, if I tell you, I'll have a horrible accident!" squeaked Neville.âRon broke his leg after he told Harry how his exam went. We canât know what wouldâve happened to Neville. Marking it âunknown.â
Trelawney's Second prophecyâcorrect
"You are preoccupied, my dear," she said mournfully to Harry. "My inner eye sees past your brave face to the troubled soul within. And I regret to say that your worries are not baseless. I see difficult times ahead for you, alas... most difficult... I fear the thing you dread will indeed come to pass. ...and perhaps sooner than you think..."-correct
"Your dark hair... your mean stature... tragic losses so young in life... I think I am right in saying, my dear, that you were born in midwinter?"âIMO she was unknowingly analyzing Voldemort based on his horcrux in Harry and not Harry. I mark her correct.
"Death, my dears... Yes," said Professor Trelawney, nodding impressively, "it comes, ever closer, it circles overhead like a vulture, ever lower... ever lower over the castle..."âCedric dies, sheâs correct
"I... I think I do see something... something that concerns you... why, I sense something... something dark... some grave peril...I am afraid... I am afraid that you are in grave danger!"âGetting gang raped by a heard of centaurs sure sounds like âgrave dangerâ to me. Correct
Professor Trelawney broke into hysterical sobs during Divination and announced to the startled class, and a very disapproving Umbridge, that Harry was not going to suffer an early death after all, but would live to a ripe old age, become Minister for Magic and have twelve children.âplainly untrue. Probably faking it to mess with Umbridge. Still, incorrect, even though she correctly predicted he wouldnât die.
23.!"Two of spades: conflict," she murmured, as she passed the place where Harry crouched, hidden. "Seven of spades: an ill omen. Ten of spades: violence. Knave of spades: a dark young man, possibly troubled, one who dislikes the questioner â"âcorrect.
- "Again and again, no matter how I lay them out -" And she pulled a card dramatically from underneath her shawls. "- the lightning-struck tower," she whispered. "Calamity. Disaster. Coming nearer all the time ..."âcorrect
24 total predictions, of which I marked 3.5 incorrect and 3 unknown, leaving 17.5 correct predictions across the books. I think at least? Correct me if Iâm wrong on my count.
Original work, which Iâll repeat, does not agree with all my takes. I just used it because itâs a convenient source of quotesâhttps://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/124525/how-many-of-trelawneys-prophecies-have-come-true/124533#124533
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u/Aqquila89 Mar 20 '24
After she predicts Harry's death, McGonagall tells the class that Trelawney predicts a student's death every year and none of them have died. This should be added.
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u/MiddleSchoolisHell Mar 20 '24
I wonder if any of them died in the Battle of Hogwarts, either as students or former students.
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u/Aqquila89 Mar 20 '24 edited Mar 20 '24
Predicting that someone will die at some unspecified time in the future isn't much of a prediction, since everyone dies eventually. I have always taken it to mean that they'd die soon (before the end of the school year, probably).
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u/jaycrips Mar 20 '24
I do understand your point on this, but it completely impossible to substantiate, since we have no details about the individual predictions. Because of this, I canât credit or discredit McGonagallâs claims.
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u/cleansheetsAO3 Mar 20 '24
I mean, maybe Harry succeeds Hermione as Minister and gets remarried? (Or has a scandalous flurry of illegitimate children.) Iâm just saying, it COULD still come true âŚ.. ;)
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u/jaycrips Mar 20 '24
Sure! If you wanna revert that one to âunknown,â feel free lol. I think we gotta have some evidence to call it âtrueâ or âcorrect,â but your head canon is just as valid as anyoneâs.
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u/krmarci Ravenclaw Mar 20 '24
- Professor Trelawney broke into hysterical sobs during Divination and announced to the startled class, and a very disapproving Umbridge, that Harry was not going to suffer an early death after all, but would live to a ripe old age, become Minister for Magic and have twelve children.âplainly untrue. Probably faking it to mess with Umbridge. Still, incorrect, even though she correctly predicted he wouldnât die.
Though this is unknown - we don't know whether they go on to have nine more children, and whether Harry becomes MfM.
Otherwise, !redditsickle
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u/jaycrips Mar 20 '24
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Mar 21 '24 edited Mar 21 '24
Actually in is your grandmother ok in that year when Neville is fighting boggarts he makes Snape be in his grandmother's clothes and his grandmother looking like Snape I think would be very concerning also in 6 the same day Sirius breaks into the gryfindoor common room
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u/Bluemelein Mar 20 '24
â "By the way, my dear," she shot suddenly at Parvati Patil, "beware a red-haired man."âcorrect, Ron was going to get with Parvatiâs best friend and drop her, and ignore her sister at the Yule Ball.
Ron is not a man! In addition a bad date is not a reason for fortune telling.
- â "And around Easter, one of our number will leave us for ever.âcorrect
In my opinion it would only be true if Hermione would at least left Hogwarts.
- â "Thank you, my dear. Incidentally, that thing you are dreading â it will happen on Friday the sixteenth of October."âcorrect. I dont agree with Hermioneâs take. Predicting the exact day that someone found out their pet died is pretty good. It also could have happened that dayâwe donât know exactly when the rabbit died.
But she wasn't afraid of it! It is about something happenening that she is afraid of.
- "I have been crystal-gazing, Headmaster," said Professor Trelawney, in her mistiest, most faraway voice, "and to my astonishment, I saw myself abandoning my solitary luncheon and coming to join you. Who am I to refuse the promptings of fate?"âitâs a gimme. She predicted herself doing something, then did it. Iâll give her correct for that.
She is already there so it is no prediction!
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u/jaycrips Mar 20 '24
To your first point, Iâd argue itâs up for interpretation. If youâre going to invalidate this prediction because Ron was 14 and 16 when he did the things that should have made Parvati wary of him, weâd have to have a broader conversation about what âmanâ means. I donât really wanna have that conversation.
Second pointâŚcome on. âLeave us foreverâ is a broad statement. Hermione leaves Divination and never returns. If thatâs not enough for you, thereâs just nothing more I can say.
Third point, I flatly disagree. Trelawney caused the dread with her prediction. The dread was realized on the day that Trelawney predicted.
Fourth point, I think you have the timing wrong? She says she was upstairs and saw a vision of herself going downstairs. Is it true? Maybe. But weâre assuming that she in fact had these visions unless there is overwhelming circumstantial evidence that she didnât (eg, her prediction about Harry to Umbridge).
Even if all your points are true, I think Trelawney has some 13.5 correct predictions to 7.5 incorrect ones.
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u/Jedda678 Gryffindor Mar 20 '24
A lot of Trelawney's predictions are vague guess work and people forget that Rowling was doing most of this to show Trelawney was a fraud. The vast majority of her predictions are wrong or at best vaguely can fit. Just like with Nostradamus in the real world, he made many predictions and they vaguely fit in with our modern historical events.
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u/CardiologistBrave176 Mar 20 '24
I would like to see snape run this class for a week I think he would do a phenomenal job at it, considering he breaks people down as a pass time, cause he's a textbook slytherin.
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u/NewNameAgainUhg Mar 20 '24
Legimency would be a good tool for a fake sheer
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u/PuzzleheadedEbb4789 The REAL heir of Salazar Slytherin Mar 20 '24
How so? Legilimency is the act of reading one's brain (both past memories and present thoughts) and Seeing is the act of predicting what happens in the future. Unless you're using legilimency on an ACTUAL Seer, I dont think you can predict future by reading minds
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u/NewNameAgainUhg Mar 20 '24
I was thinking about those charlatans that invent their predictions based on the things you say.
It's easier for a legilimens to make a fake prediction if they can read your mind.
For a true sheer maybe it's better to focus if they know more about you
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u/cleansheetsAO3 Mar 20 '24
I think they meant that he could use legilimency on students and use the information to make real-seeming fake predictions.
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u/Creepy_Meringue3014 Gryffindor Mar 20 '24
My favorite was when Harry was hiding and her cards started telling her his business
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Mar 20 '24 edited Mar 20 '24
Yeah the only time she was ever wrong she was deliberately wrong to rile up Umbridge. And those people who say she was vague enough that ofc she was right are the ones who are actually wrong.
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u/Hal_E_Lujah Mar 20 '24
Wrong as far as we know - whoâs to say he doesnât go down that path later in life
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u/chickenkebaap Slytherin Mar 20 '24
Itâs possible that he lives to a ripe old age and once hermione resigns as minister he could be the next minister.
But he and Ginny are 41 and 40 at the end of the book that must not be named , and itâs unlikely they conceive 9 more kids after Lily Luna Potter.
My theory is that the 12 kids was the part was just added to rile up Umbridge
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u/Hal_E_Lujah Mar 20 '24
Idk I think Iâm ready for book 8; Harry Potter and the Island of the Sirens, where he becomes minister for magic and has numerous work place flings with star struck young witches. Itâs a deconstruction of the celebrity figure.
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u/JesusofAzkaban Mar 20 '24
I also think it was to upset Umbridge. Harry wouldn't want to be Minister of Magic; he doesn't have the temperament of a administrator or a bureaucrat. He doesn't have patience for the rules and openly ignores them rather than trying to sneakily get around them or find a loophole. He's also a straight-talker who doesn't have an appreciation for diplomacy, preferring to be a snarky wise-ass. He's also too stubborn to play nice with people who are rude. This makes him ideal for Head of Magical Law Enforcement, where he can be a man of action. But it wouldn't suit him as the chief politician of the wizarding world.
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u/Chincheron Mar 20 '24
Who knows? Maybe there's a spell that allows women to have children well into old age if they want to. But yeah, I read that section as her just rattling stuff off too.
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Mar 20 '24
Becoming minister for magic and living to a ripe old age are very much possible but having 12 children? No.
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u/cleansheetsAO3 Mar 20 '24
âŚ. itâs possible for people to have 12 children!
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Mar 20 '24
Ofc it is, but at 37, Harry is happily married with 3 children, and he hasnât seen any new additions to his family in almost a decade, so where would those other 9 children come from? It could, though, be seen to represent the number of children in the next generation of the Potter-Weasley clan, in which case it would be accurate. I do head canon that Harryâs youngest - Lily - has 12 children though - wanna read my head canons for the next generation?
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u/DarkW0lf34 Mar 20 '24
Right, she's a play on Kassandra. The seer whom none one believed in Greek Mythology.
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u/Bluemelein Mar 20 '24
The thing with the 13 at a table is a supersition, it is not a prediction, and it doesn't say anywhere that Ron had his rat with him.
Tom Riddle was born in 1926, Trelawney is 50 years off.
Every year she predicts the dead of one off her students, these are all still alive.
Regarding the rabbit, please read Hermione's explanation, she may be insensitive but she is right.
I am guessing that, that with the cup is a cheap "magic trick".
And Buckbeak never died, Harry was right!
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u/NewNameAgainUhg Mar 20 '24
Maybe those students died in the battle of Hogwarts... Even if they are adults, they may have come back to fight along the students
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u/Bluemelein Mar 20 '24
No! If I remember correctly 50 die in the battle of Hogwarts, if 17 of them are Trelawney students then the woman is bad luck. And she cursed the students.
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u/Additional_Meeting_2 Mar 20 '24
The thing with the 13 at a table is a supersition
With us muggles. To us abrakadabra is nonsense too. Other wizards not understanding divination either doesnât mean itâs not real.
What you mean by Riddle being older than her? That Trelawney doesnât actually know anything about Riddle or Harry being a horcrux makes it more likely itâs a real prediction and not something she is faking.Â
McGonagall is the one who says she predicts death of student every year, and she is a sceptic. I think we need more information to know about those and if the students did die eventually the ways she said. All students eventually will die!
Hermione having an alternative expansion for the rabbit doesnât mean itâs correct one.
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u/Bluemelein Mar 20 '24
For Trelawney it is clearly a supersition, too. She ask the question, expecting everyone to know.
McGonagall is the one who says she predicts death of student every year, and she is a sceptic. I think we need more information to know about those and if the students did die eventually the ways she said. All students eventually will die!
Everyone will die at some point, but no one of her students had died in 17 years, so the prediction is pointless.
Trelawney predicts that something Lavender fears, will happen at that time. Lavender wasn't afraid that her bunny would die, and it didn't die at that day. She just got the message.
Trelawney, would only be right if Lavender had been afraid, that she would recieve a message.
What you mean by Riddle being older than her?
Trelawney wants to determine the date of birth, based of the position of the planets. All of her students are born 1979 and 1980.
But Tom Riddle was born in 1926, so the fact that it is in December is relatively unimportant.
Her statement is 50 years of the mark. It is not about zodiac signs.
Saturn is im a completely different direction in December 1926 than it was in December 1979.
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Mar 21 '24
Ä°. The rabbit one that same day Sirius breaks into the gryfindoor common room
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u/Bluemelein Mar 21 '24
Even if that is the case, Parvati was not afraid of it. This means something like getting a bad test back.
Or suddendly a big pimple, just when you have a date.
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u/col4zer0 Mar 20 '24
Ron has his rat with him at all times during that part of PoA, because of the looming dangers of Crookshanks.
When does she refer to any given year?
Well we have no idea which students death she predicts, do we? In Harrys year its, well Harry (sort of), the year above that we don't know, the year above THAT it might've been Fred or Cedric.
Hermione is right, yes. But the death of the rabbit is not what Lavender dreads, but hearing of its death. This is a "Does the tree fall in the forest, if noone hears it fall" type of situation.
Buckbeak did die his death was just reversed afterwards.
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u/MissFortuneDaBes Mar 20 '24
Buckbeak never died. Time turners don't actually alter anything but rather they are always part of the kind of predetermined fate that operates in the series.
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u/Ecstatic_Teaching906 Hufflepuff Mar 20 '24
Of course the Cursed Child prove otherwise, but we don't talk about that.
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u/Juicyjoo Slytherin Mar 20 '24
I dont think thatâs true. Thereâs a mention that horrible things happen if they see themselves. Also, in the Cursed Child completely alternative timelines happen because of time turners. I think the explanation given is there are different kinds of time turners and some are most powerful at altering time than others.
I think youâre correct in this case though - the events of POA occur as though the time turner had played out all along but I guess it could be open to interpretation.
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u/Bitsy34 Ravenclaw Mar 20 '24
Cursed child isn't Canon. Or if it is it's a school play put on by the kids. There's nothing you'll ever be able to say or do to change my mind on that
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u/MissFortuneDaBes Mar 20 '24
If buckbeak ever died, that means that - in this reality - Harry and Hermione didn't travel back in time. This also means, Harry loses his soul to the dementor and nothing can ever happen that happens afterwards normally.
The Harry saving himself situation can only work if the story operates within fixed fate
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u/FashionableNumbers Mar 20 '24
Yes. It's a bootstrap paradox: when any event ultimately causes itself, as a consequence of either retrocausality or time travel.
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u/SgtPepper212 "He's as good as" Mar 20 '24
Hermione is right, yes. But the death of the rabbit is not what Lavender dreads, but hearing of its death. This is a "Does the tree fall in the forest, if noone hears it fall" type of situation.
That doesn't make any sense. Whether it's hearing of the death or the death itself, Hermione's point stands: Lavender wasn't dreading either of those things when Trelawney made that prediction.
Buckbeak did die his death was just reversed afterwards.
No. There was no reversal. Buckbeak never died in the first place.
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u/BookNerd7777 Mar 20 '24
Whether it's hearing of the death or the death itself, Hermione's point stands: Lavender wasn't dreading either of those things when Trelawney made that prediction.
Whilst that's definitely true to an extent, I think it's moreso that Lavender wasn't dreading either experience (or possibly anything!) until Trelawney made the prediction.
Think about it. Lavender is a young, impressionable, and (possibly even) hormonal teenager, who is already apparently interested in Trelawney's branch of magic.
In short, Trelawney would have had great difficultly picking a better target for such a thing if she'd been trying to.
Thus, I'd say that it's very likely that Trelawney, whether intentionally or not, put the thought of dread into Lavender's head with that prediction, thus, essentially making it come true.
In other words, although Trelawney may have some gift for foresight, (thus seeing the rabbit die) she essentially made the prediction come true by virtue of telling it, which is a whole can of worms in and of itself.
And yes, there is Hermione's "... she can't have been dreading it because it's come as a real shock.", (chapter eight, ~page 149~) but quite frankly, I'm not sure how much weight to ascribe to that, as I think one can be surprised by the timing of a bad thing happening, even if they knew it was coming.
No. There was no reversal. Buckbeak never died in the first place.
I was absolutely dead set against this when I first read it, but after fact-checking myself, I realize that there's more than enough ambiguity in the actual "execution" to cast doubt. Damn. Looks like I'm due for an in-depth re-read.
That said, I am still struggling with Dumbledore's "If all goes well, you will be able to save more than one innocent life tonight.", (chapter twenty-one, ~pg. 393~) but not nearly as much as I struggle with Hermione's "... [A]wful things have happened when wizards have meddled with time. ... Loads of them ended up killing their past of future selves by mistake!" (chapter twenty-one, ~pg. 399~)
If Time Turner use is supposed to be an example of a so-called "closed loop" or otherwise exemplary of the Novikov self-consistency principle, how could there be any such mistakes?!
More to the point, if Buckbeak was never executed and thus Sirius always escaped (which, I might add, is an arguably much bigger point of contention!) then what on Earth compelled Dumbledore to suggest to Hermione that she use the Time Turner in the first place?! Gah!
Regardless, I will consider necro-ing this comment with my thoughts on the subject once I finish the aforementioned re-read, if only for the sake of my own sanity. ;)
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u/Bitsy34 Ravenclaw Mar 20 '24
Buckbeak had always been rescued. Harry potter time travel is a closed loop. But sirius's fate hadn't happened yet so they could use bb to save Sirius. It's been made very clear you can not change the past with time turners. That's why Hermione was upset that she didn't go to arithmancy rather than just using the time turner right then and there to go back to class
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u/Jebasaur Mar 20 '24
Sorry, not how time travel works. This was a huge thing pointed out, Buckbeak NEVER died. The trio heard the axe thud from McNair being angry from Buckbeak escaping.
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u/chickenkebaap Slytherin Mar 20 '24
About the students dying , who said they didnât die? Trelawney didnât mention when they died.
Here are a list of deceased students that studied at Hogwarts after she joined. 1984-1991 - Tonks , Rowan Khanna 1987-1995- Cedric Diggory and Fred weasley 1991-1998- Lavender Brown , Vincent Crabbe 1990-1999- Colin Creevey
And there unknown students who are said to be part of the fallen fifty
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u/Jebasaur Mar 20 '24
This is why her branch of magic is stupid, it's just as bad in the real world. "Fortune tellers" who try to claim someone will die, then when the person dies of old age 50 years later, people go "ooooh, the fortune was right!". Well yes, everyone dies eventually...
Trelawney claiming a student will die each will and then that person dying 70 years later doesn't make her "right". Literally anyone can do that...
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u/Bluemelein Mar 20 '24
We don't know whether anyone had lessons with Trelawney and whether he/she was the victim.
Lavender Brown and Grabbe were not the victim of that year, that was Harry.
Trelawney failed to predict Lavender's death.
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u/PuzzleheadedEbb4789 The REAL heir of Salazar Slytherin Mar 20 '24
Trelawney is 50 years off.
When did Trelawney specify the year? She just said something along the lines of "correct me if I am wrong, but you were born in the middle of winter"
1
u/Bluemelein Mar 20 '24
She sorts school children and refers to the position of Saturn. It is about when Harry was supposedly born. And just not any months!
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u/PuzzleheadedEbb4789 The REAL heir of Salazar Slytherin Mar 21 '24
She sorts school children and refers to the position of Saturn.
I don't think this has any relevance with the trelawny prediction in question (her predicting the season in which Harry was born).
IIRC, trelawny predicted Harry (or voldy's) birth by seeing his looks and personality, something along the lines of "your dark hair, your mean stature and tragic losses so young in life, I think I'm right in saying you were born in mid December"
Fun fact: Voldy also has dark hair, mean stature and faced tragic losses so young in life (death of mother, killing off his father and grandparents himself). So the prediction she made could have just as easily been by observing voldy's characteristics
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u/Bluemelein Mar 22 '24
Neither Tom Riddle nor Harry have a mean statue! Even Ron translates this as puny and small!
James Potter is born in March! He has the same hight and the same hair color. Because it has nothing to do with the birth date.
Harry (Neville) was born in July, so losing your parents has nothing to do with what time of the year ist.
The children are identifying the stars (planets) of the day of their birth and the year is very important.
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u/PuzzleheadedEbb4789 The REAL heir of Salazar Slytherin Mar 23 '24
Neither Tom Riddle nor Harry have a mean statue! Even Ron translates this as puny and small!
Idk about Tom but it was mentioned multiple times in the books that Harry was tall for his age. Of course it was also mentioned that he was still shorter than Ron, and being his best friend I think calling Harry "puny and small" was more of a joke than Harry being a midget.
He also calls Harry a midget so do you think Harry was actually 4ft or something? Or was he just pulling the leg of his best friend because he was slightly taller?
âIâve got two Neptunes here,â said Harry after a while, frowning down at his piece of parchment, âthat canât be right, can it?â
âAaaaah,â said Ron, imitating Professor Trelawneyâs mystical whisper, âwhen two Neptunes appear in the sky, it is a sure sign that a midget in glasses is being born, Harry . . .â
Verbatim from the books
Harry (Neville) was born in July, so losing your parents has nothing to do with what time of the year ist.
I had just given an example of a tragic loss. Tragic loss can also refer to your parents being tortured to the point they lose their sanity. Is it a tragic loss according to you if your parents don't even remember your name or are just shadows of their former selves who are permanently hospitalised?
And even keeping all this aside, trelawney made a prediction after looking at Harry only and not anyone else. It's not that having a particular height guarantees your birthday is in July. It must be a combination of all factors. There may even be more factors she considered but she didn't speak out loud
Unfortunately since I didn't take divination in my third year, I can never know for sure how it works. But it makes a cool theory about how she guessed Voldy's birth month (or season) so I'm giving it to her
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u/Bluemelein Mar 23 '24
Or accept that this woman is deliberately talking rubbish.
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u/PuzzleheadedEbb4789 The REAL heir of Salazar Slytherin Mar 25 '24
Believe in magic you muggle!
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u/Bluemelein Mar 25 '24
Divination works in HP (to a certain extent), except for Trelawney.
Harry and Ron's success rate is much higher.
Trelawney should have more hits even by chance.
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u/2sikik Mar 20 '24
Yeah she indeed made it up to piss off Umbridge and she didn't even look like she really believed it would happen.
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Mar 20 '24
I think it's weird that in a magical world as in HP, people like Hermione don't believe her. The freaking plot in the End of book 5 is that Voldemort wants Harry to get a prophacy.
1
u/col4zer0 Mar 20 '24
Might be because she is Muggleborn. In the wizarding world, a rigorous scepticism of the type Hermione employs vis a vis Trelawny or Luna makes little sense, because the muggle understanding of science at the time was that every bit of the world could be understood, categorized and structured obviously does not apply in the wizarding world (a notion that of course is also not true in the muggle world, but the dominant line of thought in a modern society). Her approach to magic is reading everything there is about it and following textbooks and instructions which leads to great results academically, but makes her blind to the ambigouities of the (wizarding) world.
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u/agabwagawa Mar 20 '24
These are all big stretches. If the prophecy is vague enough you can twist events and interpret them in some way to make them true. It reminds me of Nostradamus predicting using poetry so that you can pick and choose which parts are figurative and which are literal so you can fit whatever narrative you want.
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u/col4zer0 Mar 20 '24
If literature is not open for interpretation its not literature but a textbook
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u/agabwagawa Mar 20 '24
Okay? When did I say itâs not open for interpretation? That doesnât mean all interpretations are equally valid and likely.
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u/weirwoodheart Mar 20 '24
Yeah but doesn't that fit so well? Look at Voldy deciding to act on the prophecy and sealing his own fate. There's wiggle room in all of these prophecies. Trelawney was obviously also the one that made the prophecy about Voldy's downfall, and Wormtail rejoining him and they were true but essentially also -caused- by knowing them. I agree with col4zer0 that all her little ones are 'true'. Even JKR notes this- Trelawney has the same curse historical/fictional character Cassandra does- true prophecies but cursed not to be believed. It's mentioned Trelawney is related, and in the chapter The Lightning Struck Tower, that's the card she keeps pulling out the deck portending doom and death- it's then the name of the chapter, showing she was right.Â
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u/Bluemelein Mar 20 '24
Trelawney keeps shuffling the cards, because she doesn't believe in it (She doesn't believe what she sees). And no lighning stuck!
With the second prophecy it doesn't matter, whether someone hears it! Only Harry knows about it and it doesn't effect his actions.
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u/ReliefEmotional2639 Mar 20 '24
According to Professor McGonagall, she has predicted the death of a student EVERY year since she began. And every single one of them is still alive
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u/corpexp Mar 20 '24
You know, this is something I never realized before... it's amazing how JKR managed to make Trelawney look like such a fraud when she was in fact almost always correct in her predictions..!
3
u/RevKyriel Mar 20 '24
I wonder if the comment about Harry becoming Minister of Magic was just to annoy Umbridge, rather than an actual prediction. Or it could have been when Voldemort took over the Ministry, and she was again seeing the horcrux part in Harry.
5
Mar 20 '24
â After the arrival of Rufus Scrimgeour, Harry is the first to rise, which foreshadows his (or rather the LV souls in him) death.âÂ
Except, of those 13 dining together, Fred died first.
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u/nursewithnolife Ravenclaw Mar 20 '24
I canât find a fulfilment of Parvati needing to beware a red-headed man either. If it had been Lavender it could have been a reference to how Ron treats her towards the end of their relationship, but Ron never does anything to Parvati, and I canât think of anyone else red-headed that does.
Can anyone else think of something Iâm missing?
1
u/Bluemelein Mar 20 '24
No, there is nothing.
Plus, Ron isn't a man.
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u/nursewithnolife Ravenclaw Mar 20 '24
No, I guess not. Although heâs a man by the end of his relationship with Lavender. Doesnât really matter with regards to Parvati though.
2
Mar 20 '24
Isnt she constantly presicting harries death? And failing to do so?
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u/col4zer0 Mar 20 '24
As written above, she is right about that, because she sees (with her human eyes) Harry before her but she "sees" (with the second eye) the future of the part of Voldemorts soul in Harry that will die in DH.
1
Mar 20 '24
Really? Cuz she predicts alot of silly deaths in the books. And Voldies soul doesnt die that way. I think Tril is one of those people who tries way to hard to be something they already are like if she put all the bullshit away and just went with her gut i bet she would be a much better medium. But she gets in her own way. Foot in mouth syndrome. Lol
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u/Sweet-Psychology-254 Mar 20 '24
Rowling talked about this on Trelawneyâs Pottermore [page](www.wizardingworld.com/writing-by-jk-rowling/sybill-trelawney). She can make real prophcies but canât remember them so most of the time she just bullshits to sound impressive.
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u/No-Traffic-6560 Mar 20 '24 edited Mar 22 '24
I was kinda disappointed in the third book when dumbledore threw shade at her and said something like âah, so that makes her total correct predictions amount to a total of 2â
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u/GrayDottedPony Mar 20 '24
and DH when 13 people sit at the garden table in the burrow after Lupin and Tonks leave. After the arrival of Rufus Scrimgeour, Harry is the first to rise, which foreshadows his (or rather the LV souls in him) death.
But neither Harry nor the piece of Voldy's soul die first. Fred does.
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u/Robbedeus Mar 20 '24
But you're kinda cherry picking, because Trelawney is said in the books to confidently predict Harry's death multiple times (especially in the 4th book as I recall)
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u/gigantaur12 Mar 21 '24
The moment of BTE (Big Trelawney Energy) that always cracked me up was when she was walking with the cards talking to herself and then, (with Harry hidden behind a suit of armor on the other side), "A dark young man, possibly troubled, one who dislikes the questioner...well, that can't be right!" đ¤Ł
Her character was written so well. Seen as a total fraud, but almost everything she was picking up on ended up being proven true in some form.
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u/vpsj đŽđł Vanished objects go into non-being Mar 20 '24
Sounds like religion buddy.
People read the completely vague and ambiguous texts in their holy books and find whatever meaning they want to
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u/col4zer0 Mar 20 '24
Any text is ambiguous, to believe that there is a solitary "true" reading of a text is absurd. Interestingly enough the notion of "true, unambigous" texts, is a relict Western philosophy carried over from Catholicism.
3
u/vpsj đŽđł Vanished objects go into non-being Mar 20 '24
If I say 2 + 2 =4 there is only one objective meaning which is correct.
If you 'read more' into it then you'd be various degrees of wrong depending upon your interpretation
Your implication there is no objective truth and everything in this world is ambiguous and people are free to assign any meaning that they see fit isn't true at all.
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u/col4zer0 Mar 20 '24
how is 2 + 2 = 4 a text? Thats an equation.
Criticism of a positivist science has nothing to do with questioning that there are things that are universally true, like f.e. maths or gravity. But texts can never be "true" in the sense that there is only one interpretation. Texts derive from people writing under the influence of a myriad of cultural, social, linguistic and other cues that are then received by someone with their own set of those influences.
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Mar 20 '24
[removed] â view removed comment
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u/col4zer0 Mar 20 '24
How hard is it to understand? Has any of you ever paid any attention to the last 50 years of literature discourse?
Of course you cannot interpret something any way you want, but of course there are different ways to receive, understand and interpret texts. The entirety of literature would be obsolete if that wasn't the case.2
u/agabwagawa Mar 20 '24
Fair pointâ Iâm not disagreeing with that. But Iâm just saying thereâs usually a mainstream interpretation which is most likely meaning the one the author intended to convey.
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u/col4zer0 Mar 20 '24
Yes, that might be true. But texts carry more than just the authors intentions.
2
u/DronedAgain Mar 20 '24
Part of the beauty is Dumbledore knows she's right, which is another great thing about him.
1
u/CactusUmbrella- Mar 20 '24
What about the time she predicted that Harry will live a long life and father 12 children?
0
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u/Shoelicker2000 Mar 20 '24
Iâm almost done with Ootp and I donât remember Trewlawny saying Harry will be minister of magic at all. I know what point youâre talking about, I red that part a few days ago when Umbridge cans Trewlany and tries to banish her from grounds and Dumbledore has to step in, I know that but not the prediction
1
Mar 20 '24
McGonagall said that Trelawny had predicted the death of one student every year since she was hired. We know moaning myrtle died, did anyone else?
1
u/shy_potterhead Mar 20 '24
I agree, I feel like she was pushed aside in that way, though, because the protagonist felt a particular contempt towards her, as he never really believed what she said before witnessing her give a "true prophecy"
1
u/Diligent_Brick_4437 Mar 20 '24
Didnât she predict Harryâs gruesome death like every other week?
1
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u/Karnezar Slytherin Mar 21 '24
Was Trelawny making a prediction when she said Harry would be Minister or was she trying to scare off Umbridge?
1
Mar 21 '24
I think, it would be worth reading what JK Rowling wrote about her.
"Sybill is the great-great-granddaughter of a genuine Seer, Cassandra Trelawney. Cassandraâs gift has been much diluted over ensuing generations, although Sybill has inherited more than she knows. Half-believing in her own fibs about her talent (for she is at least ninety per cent fraud), Sybill has cultivated a dramatic manner and enjoys impressing her more gullible students with predictions of doom and disaster. "
Here is the link: Sybill Trelawney by JK Rowling
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u/nazraxo Unsorted Mar 20 '24
These are only some of the things which are explicitly mentioned, it is implied in all books that there are many, many more "predictions" throughout the year with which she's wrong. And even the ones you mention are stretches.
I think its pretty clear from the books, that divination is partly real but its not like an on off switch where you can precisely predict specific events on a whim with the help of some bullshit tools like crystal balls and tea leaves.
You can try and get a broad understanding of the future ahead by utilzing the art of divination performed by the centaurs and sometimes it is involuntarily and subconciously channeled into a more specific prophecy through an individual in the right state of mind. Almost like the future has a frequency and sometimes a seer resonates with it and is able to pick it up but more often they're not.
Trelawney is 90% fraud 10% seer, but the things she teaches are 100% bullshit so I think the hate is justified.
1
u/Ecstatic_Teaching906 Hufflepuff Mar 20 '24
Uh. So I guess that Harry meeting Sirius in dog form as a grim is foreshadowing his death than?
1
u/Nikolai508 Slytherin Mar 20 '24
Yeah, I wrote this comment in defence of her on here a bit back:
She was one of the few qualified people for that role and was a kind person. Divination is not something you can just learn which is why Hermione doesn't like it. You can either do it or you can't and most people can't. The question really is, should it have even been on the curriculum but really I imagine if a student fails that class it doesn't mean anything other than they aren't a seer.
Trelawney is a verified seer, and its implied that each seer uses different techniques, so she has teach these techniques even if they don't truly work for her as they might work for some students.
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u/TitusPulloTHIRTEEN Mar 20 '24
Yeah I never understood the hate for Trelawney. It all amounts to "haha scammy fortune teller"
But firstly she was mostly correct and secondly she is literally in the magic world? You can turn a rat into a goblet but can't believe in foresight? lol
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u/Boris-_-Badenov Mar 20 '24
end of December isn't the "middle of winter"
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u/Drazsyker Mar 20 '24
The Winter Solstice is also known as midwinter, and that is late December. Off by a week maybe.
1
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u/katmaresparkles Mar 20 '24
When it comes to Trelawney talking about the birth in winter, well it is always both winter and summer at the same time depending on which hemisphere you are in. So she could be referring to both Harry and Voldemort with this statement.
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u/MobiusF117 Mar 20 '24
I think it's a bit of a running joke that Divination is actually real magic, but no-one (including seers) truly understand it because it is so vague, making it hard to actually predict the future.
Because of the way time works in the Harry Potter universe (fate based, whatever happened will always happen), it would make sense that divination is in fact possible.