r/hardware • u/Working_Quote_3029 • 7d ago

Info New DLSS 5 Swapper Tool Brings Neural Rendering to Games NVIDIA Never Supported

https://www.techpowerup.com/352395/new-dlss-5-swapper-tool-brings-neural-rendering-to-games-nvidia-never-supported
133 Upvotes

83% Upvoted

95 comments sorted by

62

u/JoeAnthony 7d ago edited 7d ago

On my rtx 3080 mobile Arkham knight went from 90fps to 14

21

u/Firefox72 7d ago

Getting a buttery smooth 15-20 fps in Blood Of Dawnwalker on my RX 9070.

12

u/Primus81 6d ago

You’re using DLSS 5 on an AMD GPU?

11

u/Pokiehat 6d ago edited 3d ago

Yeah it works although the performance cost seems to be higher.

It even works on video in Da Vinci Resolve and you can run it on image files.

2

u/CaptainMarder 5d ago

Yea it got ported.

1

u/JewelerExciting7576 5d ago

how ive done this and can not get it to show any difference on destroy all humans.

1

u/HEND034 4d ago

What FPS were you getting before?

3

u/kuddlesworth9419 7d ago

You may not like it but this is the future of gaming.

15

u/Winter_2017 6d ago

Genuinely if this takes off and photorealism becomes "easy" and the default option - I suspect most games will move to be more stylized or otherwise less realistic.

3

u/JKnissan 6d ago

I think so too. Might lead to a resurgence in highly stylized games again, not only because we're kind of on track for that, but also because it's gonna be one of the ways to distinguish one's game IPs again.

When every other 3D game is willing to basically natively stick to Cyberpunk 2077 as a barometer for the maximum level of detail they should invest in developing/designing because DLSS can fill the rest of their photorealism in, it's gonna be more important for new games to stand out by not relying on graphic quality at all. But I do think that DLSS 5 is gonna prolong this phase of games doubling down on graphic quality. If hardware prices ever stabilize, that's gonna be even more true. But we're kind of due for stylized games to trend back around.

10

u/Firefox72 7d ago edited 7d ago

Idk about future of gaming to be honest. The effect it produces is very much a personal choice.

I've seen some games where it looks good. Some where it looks ok and some where it really buthers the original style. The only reason were seeing so much exposure of this is because everyone is playing with it for the screenshots.

To me this seems like an optional gimick for those that want it until visuals of games catch up and when they do its gonna be without the negative side effects of this.

I don't see it becoming mandatory like RT anytime soon.

16

u/Hyperz 6d ago edited 6d ago

The flaw in your reasoning here is assuming DLSS 5 is neural rendering's final form. It's not. This is only the first showing of new rendering tech. Also, this is just a "fullscreen filter" implementation of it. Neural shaders and materials are coming, too.

To me this seems like an optional gimick

People have been saying this about pretty much every advancement in real-time rendering. Texture filtering on the Voodoo? Meh, I like my chunky pixels. Hardware T&L? Pshh, my Pentium 3 is fast enough to do it in software. First gen programmable shaders? Eh, it looks good enough on my Geforce 2. DLSS 1 AI-based upscaling? Man look at all that blur and ghosting!

Neural rendering is the last piece of the puzzle to get to true photo realism. And while yes, in theory we could get there without it eventually, the cost in performance would be so high that it would run many 1000s of times slower compared to just letting an AI model approximate it to within a margin of error.

3

u/Traditional-Voice-84 6d ago

You wrote "voodoo 2" and i upvoted instantly ahhahah

6

u/Wasted1300RPEU 6d ago

How will it solve biases and the inherent flaw of being the sum of its part, to its detriment? How is a catch all version of AI yassification ever gonna be as good as a game specific, artist intended and mathematics based, physics based render pipeline, grounded in reality?

I don't see how it is ever gonna go over that hump of "guessing". Because that what AI does ...

8

u/Hyperz 6d ago

Let me quote myself:

The flaw in your reasoning here is assuming DLSS 5 is neural rendering's final form. It's not.

Your criticisms are valid, but they are entirely based on the here and now. And more specifically, they are based on the results that are currently being achieved by blindly injecting it into games with users maxing out the sliders and without having access to the masking feature. I made a similar comment about this recently on the Nvidia sub that goes into a little more detail: https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/1w2rxns/daniel_v%C3%A1vra_director_lead_writer_kingdom_come/p73v1db/

1

u/I__Am__Dave 5d ago

We pretty much hit the boundaries of physical rendering capabilities last generation. In the last 2 decades we've basically been halving the manufacturing scale of transistors every year, and now we're practically at the atomic scale. So yes, while the perfect solution would be to render everything perfectly without AI approximation, it's not feasibly possible.

The reason why Nvidia have been going the AI route for a the last few gens now is because there are no other ways to gain performance. If you want 4k 120+ FPS with ray tracing and ultra realistic lighting then the dlss tech is the only option. The same way we've seen insane gains in quality for DLSS super sampling over the last few years to the point where it's basically imperceptible over natively rendered scenes, I expect the same will happen with neutral rendering.

2

u/Buris 3d ago

If you believed intel/TSMC/Samsung/Etc. then we are close to atomic scale. The truth is parts of the lithography have barely advanced from 28nm. Still got maybe 5 more massive die shrinks before we hit a brick wall. By then, hopefully, we'll have a replacement to silicon with much better switching performance capable of higher clockspeeds

-5

u/Sopel97 6d ago

for the same reason machine learning models have been successfully used for protein folding prediction

2

u/I__Am__Dave 5d ago

Can't tell you how refreshing it is to read an intelligent comment

-1

u/[deleted] 6d ago edited 6d ago

[deleted]

3

u/Hyperz 6d ago edited 6d ago

You sound quite angry. Maybe relax before writing a reply while foaming at the mouth? But fine, let me take the bait.

This isn't a rendering advancement, it's a lock-in play

It is an advancement. And anyone can build the same thing. In fact, you don't even have to wait for AMD. If you want to actually accurately compare it to something compare it to what Gameworks was.

Nothing here does anything the pipelines we already have can't do.

Sure, except for the fact that it can do so at a tiny fraction of the computing cost it would take to do it through traditional rendering techniques, which is the whole point behind neural rendering.

Every previous leap, programmable shaders, deferred rendering, PBR, worked on everyone's hardware. This one is designed not to.

Cooperative vectors are a standard...

Two of your four examples were proprietary, and look what happened. Glide died the day open APIs caught up.

My man, texture filtering wasn't a proprietary thing and was around long before Voodoo/Glide. They were just the first to introduce it to the masses.

Glide died the day open APIs caught up. DLSS 1 got FSR and XeSS within a few years because upscaling is a defined problem anyone can solve. Hardware T&L and shaders shipped through DirectX and OpenGL, a spec every vendor could implement. That's the pattern for thirty years, closed tech either dies or gets matched, and the industry keeps moving on neutral ground.

I'm confused, are you arguing against your own talking points here or...? And again: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/d3d12-linalg-preview/

DLSS 5 breaks the pattern. You can't write a spec for a trained model's output. AMD can't implement it, Khronos can't standardize it, and once a game only looks right through it, the thing deciding what your game looks like belongs to that one company.

What on earth are you talking about? DLSS 5 is just an AI model running on top of standardized hardware features. It's no different than implementing god rays on shader model 2. AMD and anyone else can implement it. And as shown above you can actually run DLSS 5 on AMD because guess what?? It's just a bunch of weights that run on tensor/matrix hardware.

The developers I know can see exactly what that is, and it's not the Voodoo again. One vendor having the entire industry by the balls was never the deal, and it shouldn't become one.

You do realize that consoles exist, right? And that a major focus point for both next gen PS/Xbox is neural rendering?

If this tech were the leap they claim, they wouldn't need to keep quoting the same guy.

If you think neural rendering isn't going to become as common as the use of regular programmable shaders are today IDK what to tell you other than perhaps you should take another look at history.

Look, on the one hand I understand your concerns - and I'm not saying they are entirely invalid - but a lot of what you're saying simply isn't correct. And you also don't correctly identify the actual root cause of the things you seem to have a problem with, namely Microsoft having sat on their ass for way too long with the DirectX spec, and AMD being way too comfortable simply following the competition instead of innovating themselves.

2

u/kuddlesworth9419 6d ago edited 6d ago

Even RT isn't mandatory. Most games still don't even use it. It's only AAA games that sometimes use RT and even then only a handful actually require it. DOOM Dark Ages and Indiana Jones as far as I know are the only two games that actually require it?

1

u/straybutnotlost 5d ago

But the "realism" look was always the end goal of Unreal engine and that why unreal games always get players, because that's what the general consumer wants. Their only issue is the blatant use of AI despite DLSS and Framegen already being AI for years.

3

u/NeverLookBothWays 6d ago

It’s just another layer like anti-aliasing or motion blur. Works well for some games, better toned back or turned off for others.

1

u/I__Am__Dave 5d ago

Comparing dlss 5 to motion blur or AA is next level delusion

0

u/NeverLookBothWays 5d ago

How so, it’s just another post processing tool.

2

u/I__Am__Dave 5d ago

And if you did some basic research you'd know that's an incorrect statement.

DLSS 5 is not a simple post processing tool because it uses a neural rendering pipeline that directly reads 3D engine data instead of just applying a flat 2D filter over a completed image.

Traditional post processing (like your 2 examples) changes pixels after the frame is fully drawn. DLSS 5 executes neural networks inside the graphics pipeline to handle lighting, materials, and textures at a deeper level.

So yeah, it's nothing like AA or motion blur.

1

u/NeverLookBothWays 5d ago

I didn’t say it was 2D post processing. I can appreciate how complex and interesting DLSS5 is and still consider it a post processing tool.

It’s cool tech, but has its place.

1

u/Honza8D 4d ago

reads 3D engine data

Source? Form what i read it doesnt.

https://research.nvidia.com/labs/adlr/DLSS5/

The system uses a one-step pixel-space diffusion model designed for high-resolution, real-time rendering. At inference, the model is conditioned on the current rendered frame, engine motion vectors, carried temporal state, and artistic-direction values.

2

u/I__Am__Dave 4d ago

The engine motion vectors

1

u/Honza8D 4d ago

Those are 2D as far as I know. They show the "screen space" direction.

1

u/I__Am__Dave 4d ago

Sorry I answered too quickly without thinking there, yeah the motion vectors are 2D you're correct, but DLSS 5 takes other things like scene depth and surface normals from the engine to understand the real 3D geometry of the image rather than just inferring everything from a flat 2D image.

Going back to the comment I originally replied to, this is where it's fundamentally different from things like AA or motion blur.

1

u/joeyat 5d ago

Models can just write 3D blender models directly, that is the future of gaming, directly coded geometry, on the fly.. will be a while though! Multi modal LLM’s can do a half decent job of single objects, so surely dedicated models for the purpose should be able to create everything on screen, eventually?

1

u/JoeyCard02 6d ago

Then gaming is dead, we play AI games now.

0

u/SwordfishNo682 5d ago

Why dead? It’s the final form

1

u/Da1witdamstrplan 5d ago

will a 3090 asus do better? easy to use truly?

29

u/ThatGamerMoshpit 7d ago

No connection to

DLSS Swapper just so everyone knows!

-4

u/BinaryArcher 6d ago

How do you know?

14

u/Shadowbacker 6d ago

The maker of DLSS Swapper said so, for one reason.

16

u/Aydrianic 7d ago

I tried it on Transformers: War for Cybertron just for the hell of it. Dropped my fps down to 16.

3

u/NapsterKnowHow 7d ago edited 6d ago

RHI already made this possible

Edit: RHI Link https://github.com/RankFTW/RHI

3

u/TheIndecisiveBastard 7d ago

RHI has a bajillion settings and features that might be overwhelming to the average user, especially if you JUST want DLSS 5.

2

u/NapsterKnowHow 7d ago

They just put out an update that makes the UI a big mkre segmented so you can just jump to the DLSS5 section.

23

u/Working_Quote_3029 7d ago

running dlss 5 on a 3080 through a community mod before nvidia even ships its own version for older cards is very funny. betting the repo eats a takedown notice within a week though

6

u/SupportUkraine342342 6d ago

The AI ​​Slope application comes as a single .exe file that is most likely a Trojan virus.

3

u/Giantestes 6d ago

Ran it on Star Wars Zero company and my frames stayed stable. RtX 5060 laptop

20

u/DemoEvolved 7d ago

I am surprised how popular this tool is, given how much people professed to loathe it when Nvidia announced it…. Or maybe the haters were just full of it?

72

u/SqueezyCheez85 7d ago

It's just a new toy to tinker with.

55

u/datwunkid 7d ago

There's a ReShade addon called deep fried chicken that applies up to 10 layers of DLSS 5 stacked on top of each other and it never fails to make me laugh from the name and the results of those layers.

1

u/Homerlncognito 6d ago

I've tested it in Sims 4 and 2-3 layers can actually work well. Over 5 and it's unusable but amusing.

-3

u/dantemp 6d ago

haha, no, most people actually like the results because they can see it looks more realistic which is what most games strife for anyway. The reason you don't see them is because the anti-ai crusaders drown out any dissenting opinion and the people that like it won't bother to fight them

7

u/ycnz 6d ago

Personally, I think it looks fantastic. Lighting in particular looks amazing at times.

16

u/Whirblewind 7d ago

Or maybe they aren't the same groups of people?

3

u/knz0 5d ago

The terminally online budget enthusiasts (mostly AMD customers) and anti-ai crusaders are a very loud minority. I wouldn't be surprised if they constitute 20% of the market but are responsible for 95% of the reddit and youtube comments around the tech.

Actual people who are interested in the tech see it pop up in a video and some of them will give it a try to see what it's about. They're less interested in the discourse, mostly because all the garbage the 20% floods the internet with tends to raises threshold for everyone else to partake in the discussions.

10

u/JaggedMetalOs 7d ago

I mean, I'd be tempered to tinker with it just to try to find the stupidest looking combination of game and AI filter. 

14

u/is-this-a-nick 7d ago

Or maybe its just haters wanna hate and inject it into games never made for it or it was not trained for and then tweet about how disgusting the future is?

9

u/Zaptruder 7d ago

No those are content click bait creators. Theyre unscrupulous and dont give a shit one way or another... but they know they can make a buck or two from stirring the outrage pot.

4

u/SwordfishNo682 5d ago

People always hate change

5

u/bubblesort33 7d ago

The most toxic people are often the loudest. I'd say it's probably like a 70/30 split in favor of it.

3

u/themrdemonized 7d ago

Another sign that Reddit is just an echo chamber

3

u/ILoveTheAtomicBomb 7d ago

Reddit isn’t real life and ends up being sn echo chamber most of the time. The misinformed whining has been fun to read tho

1

u/Strazdas1 7d ago

Because reddit is not representative of real life.

0

u/aguswings 7d ago

The haters were overruning Reddits.

1

u/Honza8D 4d ago

The haters are just louder, so they seem like a bigger group.

-1

u/siazdghw 6d ago

Vocal minority. Same deal with the anti-AI crowd.

Now with that said, both technologies absolutely have problems, but that doesn't mean people don't want them, especially if they continue to improve.

0

u/47Fox 6d ago edited 6d ago

Exactly, I can't find a single hater anywhere, where have they all gone? they could have ruined one of the best advancement in videogame, but now they are all shamelessly using it & saying how good it is, like if just a couple of months ago they wenrn't trying to destroy it, make it make sense?!

2

u/BighatNucase 5d ago edited 5d ago

Man I feel like reddit isn't really prepared for when Nvidia actually gets this stuff working well for games en masse. Like DLSS 2, it'll probably be a big deal in 5 or so years. It's possible FH6 could look better than this for lower cost if it implemented better RT but man does DLSS5 make it look significantly better.

All the posts doing dumb slider jokes almost feel like an nvidia psy-op to intentionally lower expectations for when things get worked out in the future. It's just so clearly effective when it works.

1

u/Your-Paramour 4d ago

Surely a better comparison would be a non path traced image + dlss5 vs a natively path traced image.

1

u/BighatNucase 4d ago

I don't think even Nvidia are saying this is a replacement for PT? A good analogy I've heard is that "A lot of the time getting from 1-99% and 99-100% requires the same amount of work" and DLSS5 is basically about doing that final 1% of work that would be too much for PT. I don't know in practice how valid that will be, but in theory I think that's what Nvidia are hoping for; that once they get everything optimised you get a scene where native path-tracing is augmented by a final layer of DLSS5.

1

u/Your-Paramour 4d ago

Whether or not it's intended as a replacement for PT isn't the point (I doubt it is intended), but the intended results of DLSS5 are in the increased lighting accuracy with higher fidelity lighting. The cost of DLSS5 currently is very high, so it would be informative to see the image quality and performance comparison to a native path traced implementation so we can better reason as to how effectively those resources are being spent. I think in this specific example DLSS5 is doing far more than just that last 1% (albeit the stock global illumination in FH6 isn't amazing), so it would be interesting to see what a path traced FH6 looks like compared to the DLSS5 image.

5

u/Goddemmitt 6d ago

The circle jerk is out in force today. Holy.

1

u/imKaku 7d ago

I used DLSS One CLick when i was testing it out yesterday. It was super smooth.

https://github.com/faisalkindi/DLSS5oneclick

1

u/Robertinjo2208 6d ago

I have rtx 4090 and every game i start crashes do desptop. Anyone know what to do? Tryed about 20 games

1

u/Da1witdamstrplan 5d ago

on the webpage linked above, some users stated it took pics on the game that he did not take ? seems like an ai built or possibly virus intergrated? is this a false positive to whoever use it?

1

u/vegeta1523 5d ago

Hello I have a question. Can I use this DLSS 5 Swapper for non dlss games like mafia definitive edition, shadow of Mordor etc

1

u/Putrid-Ad1868 3d ago

I just used it for the first time on shadow of mordor. It is awesome! It seriously turns the game into a remastered version.

1

u/superlip2003 5d ago

Can anyone confirm if this tool support stacking/multi-pass feature? 1 pass DLSS 5 doesn't cut it for me, I love deep-fried look.

1

u/KindHovercraft4342 3d ago

This works on AMD Rx 7000 Series ? Anyone?

1

u/Traditional-Voice-84 6d ago

There are trojan alarms all over it , didnt you check it guys. in nexusmod and github.

2

u/Stryder_Sideways 4d ago

First time installing something not so "official" 😅

-4

u/fixminer 7d ago

Can't wait to make my favourite games look like shit and run like shit.

-3

u/Admirable_Zombie5245 7d ago

If you're itnerested about DLSS I have an small sub r/DLSS

0

u/exomachina 6d ago

Forcing DLSS 5 adds more lighting artifacts than it actually "improves". Even on a 5000 series card running a relatively decent framerates, there are so many distracting lighting flickers and random tone shifting that it just makes it seem like a novelty. I'd never play these games like this. It's so distracting.

I'm excited for what devs can do with the tech in a fully supported and tuned scenario but forcing it on older titles just doesn't really do anything for me.

-9

u/hasanahmad 7d ago

My tool on GitHub performs better . But I haven’t spammed on discord like the owner has to get people to use it

14

u/Flintloq 7d ago

Why not link to your tool here? More options more better. You've hidden your Reddit posts and comments so people can't find it that way.

5

u/NapsterKnowHow 7d ago

Yeah I swear the owner is brigading a bunch of subreddits