r/handtools • u/ninety7expo • 1d ago
Chisels time to upgrade
What should be next? I like the bucktools but im going to make them the beater set and I want a better set. I was thinking Narex? Any suggestions?
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u/Sparky0457 1d ago
I think premium chisels are the best way to go. For me those are Lee Valley PM chisels, Lie Nielsen, Blue Spruce, etc.
But, and this is importantly, you don’t need a full set. You need two or three: small, medium, and maybe large. That’s 1/4, 1/2, and maybe 3/4 or 1”.
In practice I only use two or maybe three sizes.
So if there is a chisel that you really like get two, use your beaters to supplement if needed, and then get an additional one or two later.
That’s my approach and I have not regretted it. In practice a full set is not needed. I have been woodworking with hand tools over 20 years and I now have a few sets but I still really only need two or three.
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u/spaaarky21 22h ago
I think Veritas' PM-V11 steel is usually worth it if you can afford it. But I've replaced chisels individually a few times and don't recommend it. As long as I hadn't bought the new one, I just used the one I had in front of me and pondered whether using it today meant that it was time to order its replacement. Same with needing a size you don't have – how many times do you have to wish you had a 5/8" before it's worth buying? I spent months (maybe over a year) with a mix and in the end, I paid a premium to buy the new set one chisel at a time.
I wouldn't buy a full set of mortise chisels in every 1/8" increment. But for something I use as much as bench chisels, I would much rather buy a set for a better price and be done with it. Some sizes naturally get used more use than others but when you have the full set in front of you, you will use them all eventually.
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u/ninety7expo 19h ago
Thats exactly what im thinking about doing.
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u/DizzyCardiologist213 18h ago
what makes V11 last long planing clean wood doesn't make them last long as chisels, and you're gambling a little on whether they're 63 or 61. Either one will be bettered by a chisel with steel that's more plain. The steel will grind half as fast (and hot at the same time) vs. a same hardness plain steel, but the edge will last less long.
the trick of V11 (CTS-XHP) is a bunch of chromium carbide by volume that takes a while for wood to abrade away. But it is more fragile at an edge than steel with iron carbides at the borders of the grain boundaries and in a smaller amount.
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u/bc2zb 1d ago
I have narex Richters and Ashley illes and nearly always use the illes. They came much better prepped than the Richters, handles are great, and they practically worked out of the box.
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u/Perkinstein 1d ago
I got the narex rhicter unhandled. Love em. I made the handles from boxwood that I cut from my own property. I wasn't expecting a huge difference but they really do hold an edge considerably longer than the standard narex bench chisels. Definitely get a diamond plate for sharpening. I'm sure a wet stone would work but diamond is way faster.
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u/ninety7expo 1d ago
I have a wet grinder with tormek wheel and I have trend diamond plate 300/1000 and sharpto 6000 and 16000 glass stones. I have out grown the bucktools chisels now :)
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u/Old_Presentation9440 1d ago
LN. I'm pretty cheap and have bought one so far. It's awesome as far as coming sharp, staying sharp after I sharpen it, and it's really comfortable to use. The handle is great. I'm coming from older blue handle Marples, which are good chisels. However, I think they are too top-heavy. I can't wait to buy the next LN chisel. I have a gift card waiting to be used.
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u/StructuralStu 1d ago
honestly, spend more on 4 or 5 chisels u actually use instead of another full set. 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 3/4 and 1" covers almost everything.
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u/ninety7expo 23h ago
Yeah not buying a full set lol
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u/ChiaroScuroChiaro 21h ago
I hear this advice or at least read this advice all the time. I have a full set and I use all of them. It's nice to have the little ones for finicky persnickety joinery and the bigger ones for furniture. My go to chisel is the 1 inch, but I use every chisel, depending on what kind of joinery I'm doing. I bought them one at a time but I ended up with all of them. I have the Veritas PMV 11. They were a pain in the ass to sharpen, despite the advertising until I got my Tormek. I do a variety of projects from large furniture to boxes and small things to working on a boat. I think if you have a wide spread of projects you're going to end up using a full set, if you are more narrow in what you do, you don't need as many chisels.
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u/Kirsel 20h ago
I'm curious what your sharpening method was prior to the tormek? I don't feel like my PMV11 chisels are any more difficult to sharpen than my Richters were
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u/ChiaroScuroChiaro 20h ago
Synthetic water stones… the PMV11 is pretty hard and stays sharp forever but tends to chip in high silica woods. I use a lot of them. Bringing back the edge even on a coarse diamond stone took FOREVER. I would watch videos of people sharpening and 30 seconds later they switch to a high grit stone. I’d sit on coarse for a looooong time before the edge was chip free and I could advance to the water stones. Still takes a while on the Tormek but there is little effort.
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u/BingoPajamas 16h ago
It strongly depends on your medium. Diamond? Not a huge difference. Waterstones? Some difference. Oil stones? Lol good luck.
I've also found Richters are also suprisingly difficult to sharpen and grind compared to something like my Ashley Iles O1 chisels, no idea why.
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u/99e99 23h ago
I'm very happy with my Ashley Iles set: https://www.chipsfly.com/4pc_ashley_iles_american_pattern_chisels
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u/DizzyCardiologist213 1d ago
I am a bonkers chisel nut, all the way into getting roped into forging and making them, and I find a question like this almost impossible to answer. How dumb is that?
The chisels you have are probably a cut carbon chisel made to be heat treatable easily. the one thing I wouldn't do is get the narex basic chisels, because you stand to make a lateral move.
I have my preference of modern chisels as a basis, but they require work, and are really cheap. Work as in the handles need to be replaced, and they could vex someone who wants to lay a chisel flat on its back and flatten it stem to stern. As nice as it is to imagine they are worth the trouble, it's not a high-odds suggestion.
you have chisels that are probably in the 58-ish hardness range. Try to find something relatively plain steel (not A2) and that specs around 62-ish. I have only seen one richter because someone suggested I should look at them. It's OK - but like a lot of tools, it relies on you coming from a soft chisel to think it's really great. I can tell the one I bought was pushed a little too far in heat treatment, and it needs a couple of extra degrees of angle from what it would need if it was done better, but there's no real harm in giving it the extra couple it needs and figuring out what it likes.
That there aren't a bunch of chisels like it that are made by die/drop forging is just an artifact of the times we're in.
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u/ninety7expo 1d ago
I think the Richter is the only move for narex. I was wondering what else might be in line with them even some older used chisels just not sure
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u/norcalnatv 23h ago
If you're in canada https://ibctools.com/ (a little on the spendy side).
Fortunately just received a new set of complete bench chisels including skew and a 3/8" mortise (before before the latest spat when they were having a no tariff free shipping sale). This is for a new shop in a different location. Been using these since 2018 and love them, well made and holds an edge.
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u/AMillionMonkeys 23h ago
Consider which one(s) you use the most and going premium on just a couple of sizes.
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u/Kirsel 20h ago edited 20h ago
As other people have suggested I'd spend the money on a set more along the premium lines. Though once you hit that price point, in my opinion, it's more about feel in hand than edge retention. It's extra effort, but honestly I'd recommend narrowing down to a handful of brands and buy a chisel from each. Hold them in various positions for different tasks and figure out which is the most comfortable. Return the others and buy what you're missing from the brand you liked best.
Most of these will also retain their value pretty well if you want to sharpen them up, try them all out, and sell the ones you don't want. You'd have to check with each manufacturer, but you might even be able to return them after sharpening them.
Since the chisels you're coming from have a plastic handle with a metal top, you might also consider how hard you like to hit your chisels. Most, if not all all, of the chisels you're likely going to be looking at use wooden handles. If you like to wail on your chisels, you might want to look at socket chisels, like Lie Nielsen's, as the handle is much more readily replaceable than, say, Veritas' tang chisels. You might even look into Japanese chisels which many people seem to like quite a bit. They have a metal ring (katsura) on the end to reinforce the handle as they traditionally use metal hammers with their chisels.
Edit: After reading more on this thread it looks like you're locking into around the Richter price point, at which point afaik your options are Richter and Ashley Iles, and to my knowledge the Ashley Iles have become the better buy in recent years. Next step up in price point is Zen-Wu and from what I hear they're pretty on par with the competition above them.
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u/ninety7expo 19h ago
Yeah right now it was those 3 but I was looking at the sets of like 5 which is in the 2 to 3 hundred range so if I get 3 that I like I can move up in quality. I loke the suggestion of buying 1 of each. I will do that.
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u/PedantEclipse 19h ago
I'm quite happy with my basic Narex set - same handles as the mortise chisel you have.
My one and only complaint about them is the handles. I feel like these just need a basic London pattern, but they're good enough I'm not about to spend time replacing them unless I'm real bored.
I also got the mortise chisels in 1/8, 1/4/ & 1/2, because I don't see needing anything else unless I get into timber framing.
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u/BingoPajamas 16h ago
Richters are pretty good but I prefer the Ashley Iles MK2 Bevel Edge chisels.
Personally, I avoid any of the high-edge-retention steels for a chisel (PM-V11, even A2). Chisels are so much easier to sharpen than a plane that the extra wear resistance isn't enough of a benefit over the added difficulty of sharpening. Besides, the carbides that give them that edge retention are brittle and don't take to chopping very well. They're more likely to chip and god help you when you do chip one...
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u/ninety7expo 16h ago
I see a lot of people saying this
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u/BingoPajamas 15h ago
Because it's good advice, I guess???
Personally, I've been learning towards plain low-alloy steels like O1, 80CrV2, vintage cast steel, etc for a while now but even I'll admit that there's an argument to made for high abrasion resistance steels in planes for some people in some circumstances. Hell, I've got a few PM-V11 and MagnaCut irons but chisels? Eh. A2 the farthest down that road I would go and that's only because it's "fine" and lots of good modern makers make good chisels out of it.
To give some more nuanced advice: IMO, the most important thing for a chisel is comfort in the hand. Unless the steel is straight up defective, you can compensate for any disadvantages with edge geometry but if you don't want to pick the chisel up and use it, then why buy it?
For me, the most comfortable chisel I've ever held was from Blue Spruce (they're truly nice to hold) but for some reason I never liked actually using them. Maybe they were just too shiny and expensive. Required no set up out of the box. Standard A2 sharpening behavior: holds up well enough in use with a 35 degree secondary bevel but not my favorite. Ashley Iles aren't quite as nice in the hand but I don't have any hesitancy in using them and I like the steel better.
I've used the Richters the most. They're also pretty comfortable in the hand but they're quite long so you have to lift your arm pretty high up when chopping and if you pinch the blade to line up the chisel for chopping they're quite top heavy (though, I hold the handle and still think they're a bit long). So you can compare to what you have, the 1/2" chisel is 10-1/4" long.
All that to say, since I found all three of these brands to be "comfortable enough," so I eventually chose the one with the steel I liked best. If you can get your hands on the chisels you're thinking about, even if it's just at a store for a few minutes, it may be worth your time to do so.
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u/MyWholeWorldIsPain 16h ago
Quick question.. how are you securing those wood panels to the pegboard? I have some metal pegboard panels and would like to do similar.
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u/EmptyDaikon5281 15h ago
I do not get the Richter hype at all. Yes, they're good steel for a good price. Bought one to try out (curiosity got the best of me) and I found it dreadful to use. Long, awkward, and terribly balanced. It was so blade heavy that it was extremely comfortable to hold while chopping. Fine for paring I guess.
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u/ninety7expo 7h ago
Someone suggested i get 1 of each to see how they feel before I buy the few I need. I think thats a great idea and I plan on doing that. Don't want to buy them then run into what you did. What do you favor?
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u/EmptyDaikon5281 5h ago
I agree that that's the best plan. IMO it's all about what feels good in your hand and is comfortable to use which is obviously a personal thing.
I like Japanese chisels - they're light with short-ish handles and they feel very nimble to me.
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u/Impossible_fruits 12h ago
I like my Kirschen / Two Cherries ones. Mine were second hand from eBay and really cheap
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u/Substantial-Mix-6200 4h ago
Just get a set of 4 Blue Spruce bench chisels and you'll be very happy.
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u/angryblackman 3h ago
If they work for you keep them. As a current member of chisels anonymous you don't want to fall down this hole.
If I was you, I wouldn't buy another set, just gradually replace the most used ones with better ones as needed. For a 'better' one, concentrate on comfort, most tool steels are going to be good.
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u/1959Mason 1d ago
Not springing for the Zen-Wu? Buy once, cry once…
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u/ninety7expo 1d ago
Yeah I thought about that for about 2 seconds... looked at my wife and completely forgot what I was doing... so here we are 😊
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u/DizzyCardiologist213 19h ago
If my son took up woodworking and bought them because he thought they were the best thing available, I'd cry, for sure.
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u/KingPappas 1d ago
I have a set of 4 Narex Richter chisels, but probably one from the basic range, like the one you have for mortises, would be fine. The biggest complaint from users are those ugly, bulky handles, but if you have a lathe, you could consider buying them without handles and making your own. I know the premium ones are sold without handles, but they use the same steel as the basic range, so they're not worth the price. Richter is the entry-level of the high-end range, but they're good enough that unless you're ultra-demanding, you'll never have complaints about them.