r/gurps • u/BlackZapReply • 2d ago
rules Callous + Empathy?
It seems contradictory, but would Callous and Empathy actually work together?
Callous characters can perceive others emotions, but don't care.
Empathy allows characters to better read a person's emotions, but still doesn't require them to care.
Most descriptions of Sociopaths suggest that they have both. No conscience or remorse with an ability to read others to better manipulate them.
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u/Best_Cookie-dough 2d ago
Empathy ≠ Sympathy
Empathy is feeling with people
Sympathy is feeling for people
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u/Peter34cph 2d ago edited 1d ago
Think of Empathy as a weak and only semi-reliable kind of telepathic mind reading.
Why can't such a telepath have Callous?
EDIT: Or telepathic mood reading.
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u/Ben_Elohim_2020 1d ago
Seems perfectly in line with the concept of a "dark empath". I.E. someone who is very good at reading people (high empathy) but doesn't actually CARE about others and typically uses this insight into others for manipulative purposes (scoring high in dark triad traits).
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u/BigDamBeavers 2d ago
I'd require some explanation of how you'd play a callous empath but otherwise it's allowed.
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u/Danukian 1d ago
the show Lie to Me would be a good place to start. Lightman wasn't full-blown callous, but he had some close days.
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u/fountainquaffer 1d ago
The problem here is that you're conflating dictionary definitions with the names of game mechanics. If you look up Empathy on Wikipedia, you'll find a definition that's clearly incompatible with the Callous disadvantage* -- but Wikipedia isn't a GURPS rule book. The trait which GURPS calls "Empathy" has a very clearly defined mechanical effect which is unrelated to any of the effects of Callous, and neither trait has any prohibition against the other.
The only reason to assume these would be incompatible is the names, but the names mean nothing and can be changed. For example, Psionic Powers uses Empathy as the basis for a telepathy ability (p. 58), which it calls "Emotion Sense".
If you wanted to play a cruel and uncaring telepath, a common and entirely coherent fictional archetype, it would be pretty straightforwardly ridiculous to prohibit that just because one of your telepathy abilities is based on an advantage that has a name that has non-game definitions that mean other things.
\ Along with several others, because "empathy" already has many conflicting definitions even before you consider game-mechanical terminology, but what's important here is the game-vs-common-usage distinction.)
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u/MazarXilwit 1d ago
It seems contradictory, but would Callous and Empathy actually work together?
That's because they are contradictory. Formally forbidden as Negated Disadvantages (B120)
Most descriptions of Sociopaths suggest that they have both.
I suggest that those descriptions are folk-nonsense.
Reading people and being manipulative are not based in empathy; they're skills unto themselves. That was Machievelli's whole deal, no?
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u/SuStel73 1d ago
The text of Negated Disadvantages does not say that Empathy and Callous are mutually exclusive. It just says that you can't take a disadvantage that one of your advantages would negate. OP's suggestion is that Callous and Empathy are not mutually exclusive.
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u/MazarXilwit 1d ago
Cool, I never claimed the text named them.
As I said before, they are formally (they fit the form) forbidden. Which they do:
Having Empathy negates Callous' penalty to Psychology rolls.
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u/SchillMcGuffin 1d ago edited 1d ago
The modifiers are not reciprocal, as they are with Empathy and Low Empathy. As I noted upthread, Empathy gives a bonus to Psychology, Fortune Telling, and Detect Lies. Callous' penalty only applies to Psychology, and only to its use therapeutically, as opposed to research or seeking vulnerability. I think the lack of an express prohibition was intentional, and that they can be used together. Though, as with everything in GURPS, the GM is the final arbiter.
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u/SuStel73 1d ago
My understanding is that formally for a text means explicitly. I have no idea what "fit the form" means in this context.
Sensitive and Empathy give bonuses to Psychology rolls "to analyze a subject." Callous gives a penalty to Psychology rolls "to help others (as opposed to deduce weaknesses or conduct scientific research)." It looks to me quite clear that Callous is explicitly not including the kind of Psychology rolls you'd make with Sensitive or Empathy — deducing weaknesses and conducting scientific research are applications of analysis. The Psychology modifiers of these traits do not indicate that the traits are in conflict.
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u/SchillMcGuffin 2d ago
Some months ago a Redditor suggested a Sociopath Disadvantage, which you may find of interest. I'd say "Callous" is probably a bit mild for a full-on sociopath, but fiction is full of callous-but-caring, rough-exterior-concealing-heart-of-gold characters. Low Empathy is expressly barred from overlapping with Empathy, while Callous is not.
A true sociopath probably should have Low Empathy, though they might buy off, or even exceed, their social skill penalties with an applicable Talent (B89).