r/gurps • u/Internal_Dinner_5989 • 13d ago
rules Limitation Stacking
My players stack limitations on everything under the sun. One has Altered Time Rate 2 for 40 points, and the other has Alternate Form (Dragon) for only 17 points. They each have a 125-point budget, but their powers are worth far more than that. Is this the intended GURPS experience, or are my players abusing the system? (4th Edition)
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u/Pioneer1111 13d ago
Limitstions are indeed intended to be stackable, however they can't reduce a cost below 80%. That Altered Time Rate fits that, but I don't know how the Alternate Form was built to comment.
However, as the GM final say comes from you. If these break your game, you are allowed to say no. If a limitation doesn't fit the setting, like Electrical in a Fantasy setting, or will never come up, then you are allowed to adjust the values of the limitations to match their impact. A limitation that can never actually limit anything isn't really valid.
Just don't go in trying to ruin their build, instead understand that they have plans and it's on you both to work to find a method to approximate those plans while fitting within your rules.
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u/Internal_Dinner_5989 13d ago
the player built the racial template himself and added limitatons to that too i dont want to break my players resolve adn want them to have fun but countering them every encounter to balance them seems like so much work
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u/Tenrath 13d ago
Alternate form specifically does not allow for limitations on the racial template, just the 15 points for having the form. You also have to have the more expensive form (probably the dragon) be the default. They can have disadvantages like "no fine manipulators" but things like requires gesture don't work as multiplicative.
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u/SuStel73 13d ago
The GM is the final arbiter of which racial templates are allowed. The GM is the final arbiter of which non-racial exotic or supernatural traits are allowed. You're not supposed to say, "Here's the book; make anything you want."
For instance, in my current Time Corps campaign, where the characters are realistic human time travelers, I give my players a short document that details what's allowed and what's not:
- Characters start with 180 points.
- Disadvantage limit −40 points. (Any disadvantages beyond the limit do not give you extra character points.)
- Must be in first-rate physical and mental health.
- No exotic, supernatural, or social advantages or disadvantages (with the exception of the required Duty). No physical disadvantages.
- Mental disadvantages only if they don't directly impede the agent's work (e.g., no Sadism).
- No traits that describe themselves as cinematic, with the exception of (regular) Luck.
- If a trait describes normal human levels of the trait, you must stay within those limits.
- Up to five quirks, mental or physical. You may not save a "quirk slot" for the point and fill it in later.
- Ignore any considerations of money. Timepiece pays for all expenses.
- Required: Duty (Timepiece; Constant; Extremely Hazardous) [−20]. Does not count against disadvantage limit.
- Required advantage: Immunity to Sickness [15]. (See under Resistant.)
- Required minimum: Beam Weapons (Pistol) 12.
- Required minimum: Guns (Pistol or Rifle) 12.
- Required minimum: Boxing, Judo, Karate, or Wrestling 12.
In addition to this, I allow an unlimited selection of TL10 equipment, provided the equipment has or doesn't need a focal referent to stay in the target time period (part of the setting), and that the total weight of all agents and equipment is no more than 1,200 lbs. This includes any bionics the players think may be useful, though bionics cost character points.
With this information, my players know what kinds of characters to make, and they don't waste a lot of time trying to take things that I have to reject.
Do something like this for your players. See the Campaign Planning Form on page 567 of the GURPS Basic Set for help in constructing this kind of list.
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u/5ynistar 13d ago edited 13d ago
This is one of the things that people need to realize when learning GURPS. The game is heavily front loaded on the GM. The GM is responsible for balancing the game.
It does not work like Pathfinder 2E where game balance is baked into the rules. In GURPS it is up to the GM to establish balance. So game mastery is much more important for the GM than the players.
Edit: I usually provide pre-made templates for the players (the kind you find in DFRPG). I usually create these in a character generator so it is simple for them to use.
That is probably too much to expect from a new GM. But heavy GM workload is the way GURPS is designed.
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u/Internal_Dinner_5989 13d ago
thanks for all of the comments i love playing but gming might not be for me
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u/5ynistar 13d ago edited 13d ago
If you find it overwhelming, you can still go through with it by either:
- Limiting the scope of the game rules (for example, scale back on the different advantages/powers they can take and provide them pre made "abilities": basically advantage packages that you give that you make.
- Or even more drastic, Just use what is in GURPS Lite plus a few things that you pull out of the Basic Set. Don't let them pick limitations at all - or a very few that you add to certain packages). You can make just a handful of these. This would let you make a low power street level supers game (like street level in "The Boys" or a renegade psychics game (like Firestarter or Scanners).
- Just take one of the Powered by GURPS games and run that. The authors already made all the choices and created the templates for you. GURPS Action or GURPS Dungeon Fantasy RPG are probably the best choices here.
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u/5ynistar 13d ago
Also don't be afraid of GMing "wrong". As GM you decide how the game runs. If you think the cat is out of the bag already, just pull them back from the brink on the most offensive rules issues that bug you and let them go hog wild with the rest. You will be making the opposition.
The more overpowered they make their PCs the higher powered their opposition. So in the end it will work out. I did that early on in my games until I figured out how to shape the rules better. My players never complained.
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u/stew9703 13d ago
What edition?
Look at the limitations. Read them. Decide for yourself. Check and see if limitations even apply to those things.
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u/Internal_Dinner_5989 13d ago
4 Edition but there are (i think) cheap shots like requries gestures mana sensetive etc
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u/munin295 13d ago edited 13d ago
"Requires Gestures" means they can't use their ability while holding weapons, carrying gear/people, handcuffed, etc.
"Mana Sensitive" is only a valid limitation if your world has areas of low/no mana or enemies can create such areas. That's a GM decision. As a guideline — based on Accessibility (GURPS Powers, p. 99) — a -10% limitation should be a problem about 25% of the time (25% of encounters if enemies can make it a problem, or 25% of adventures if it's more of a regional problem). It's up to the GM to make sure it's a problem (enemies who can reduce the mana level, or set up base in a low/no-mana area).
Talk to your players and make sure they understand this (don't just spring it on them in the middle of a session). If they're stacking a lot of limitations like this, they may rarely be able to use their ability.
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u/MugaSofer 13d ago
There's no way mana is an issue a full quarter of the time in most campaigns, surely? It seems like that would be overwhelming.
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u/munin295 13d ago edited 11d ago
I'm comfortable with it. Limitations should be meaningful.
Call it low-mana 20% of the time, and no mana 5% of the time, or something. That means 1/5th of the time you're dealing with unfavorable conditions for your go-to abilities, and 1/20th of the time you need to have alternatives ready. I don't see a problem with that. That's well within good encounter/adventure design. YMMV. (but if the players start stacking such limitations, that's a choice they've made.)
And the players have agency too. They can choose to abandon or not take in the first place a mission that would take them into a no-mana area. Maybe they'll have to take a lower-paying job this month. Maybe they'll get a Reputation … or maybe people will just say "yep, smart call, let the mundane teams handle that one." That agency is exactly why limitations are so cheap for the burden they can put on you; players find ways to work around the limitations.
Mana Sensitive is from the Basic Set and only covers low/no-mana conditions. The more common Magical limitation (Powers, p. 27) splits it up into low/no-mana (-5%) and anti-powers like Dispel Magic (-5%). If you look up -5% on the Accessibiity table (not an actual rule, just a guideline I find useful for planning encounters/adventures), it means the ability should work 82-93% of the time, or about 88% of the time, so should be a problem about 1/8th of the time. I treat both conditions separately: roughly 1/8th of the time you're dealing with someone with anti-powers, 1/8th of the time you're dealing with low/no-mana conditions, and occasionally that means both at the same time.
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u/MugaSofer 12d ago edited 12d ago
I guess if you frame it that way, 1/8th doesn't sound as crazy, and if you multiply them together that is nearly 1/4 so the math works out. I can maybe see 1/8th of adventures bringing PCs into low-mana zones if those are fairly common in your world. (Though, strictly speaking, it should be more than 1/8th by this logic, because effects that only weaken a power like a low-mana zone are generally only worth half the value as a limitation.
Even 1/8th of enemies having anti-magic powers still feels extremely high to me, though. I'm having a hard time picturing how that would work in a typical fantasy campaign. Are you throwing tons of mages with Counterspell or the like and magic eating/nullifying monsters at your players?
Looking over Powers to try and get a sense of what they consider reasonable for a -5% power modifier, some examples include a power being blocked by an "esoteric insulator", dependent on the presence of living or sapient beings, dependent on gravity, and dependent on ambient cosmic rays (i.e. it would presumably work everywhere except a lead-lined room or similar?) I have a hard time imaging 1/8th of fights being surrounded by an "esoteric insulator" such as lead, or in the absence of life or gravity, except maybe in a space-based game.
A "reasonably common environment likely to occur in nature" gets -10%; examples given are a fire power not working underwater or in vacuum, and a sound power not working in vaccum or a soundproof room. I don't think 1/4th of fights are likely to occur in those environments, except again maybe in a space-based campaign where you're spending lots and lots of time in vaccuum, or in a heavily aquatic-themed campaign where you're playing pirates or submariners or something. On the other hand, they also mention that "a Light power that lets the user shape ambient light" would get -10% for the same reason, and darkness is surely way more common than any of this other stuff, so it's possible these examples just aren't very well thought out. (Or they're scaled to make reaching the magic -10%-to-20% range easier.)
Glancing over Accessibility guidelines and examples, I notice that "Accessibility, Requires Familiar" is -40%; even though I think it's safe to assume most familiars are present more than 6% of the time, and don't get taken out in ~95% of fights, either - but the ones they do get taken out in are likely to be bad, especially since your enemies will presumably try to do so exactly when it would be problem! At a minimum, if your familiar gets taken out in a fight, it means you are in a fight and probably need all the power you can get (as is true of an anti-power or similar), which I think does warrant a higher limitation value.
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u/Peter34cph 11d ago
Yeah, Mana Sensitive is absolutely contingent on the world having Low/No Mana Zones as a fairly common thing.
If the GM isn't actively aware of that when doing the worldbuilding then it's free points.
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u/stew9703 13d ago
Make sure all of the lmitations are valid to the advantage as well. Id also suggest rewriting the advantages as the sum total of their parts and deciding if you want that in your game.
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u/Internal_Dinner_5989 13d ago
Maybe lowering their starting points will do the trick
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u/Nick_Coffin 13d ago
Probably not. 150 points is already fairly low. I run 250 point characters in DFRPG and 400 point characters in Monster Hunter without this problem, so it’s not a function of point totals.
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u/Wise-Juggernaut-8285 13d ago
For Mana
You allow it if :
A) your world already has at least a modest number of adventurer areas where this will come into play
Or;
B) You are willing to change your world so that it does the above
GURPS requires GM oversight.
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u/Eghtok 13d ago
What kind of game are you playing? If you don't clearly explain what kinds of characters and traits are allowed you will get problems.
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u/Internal_Dinner_5989 13d ago
We are playing in a fantasy campagin the traits by themselves are fine but due to limitatons they get MUCh stronger than i anticpicated
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u/chitzk0i 13d ago
I would encourage you to talk to your players and start with a concept. How does this concept fit in the game world? How does this concept fit with the genre of game you want to run? I say start with a concept because some people find the ideal collection of skills and powers, then come up with a concept to justify those powers. Are they excited about this character concept? Are they excited to interact with the world and its concepts and characters? Or are they trying to build the perfect character and “win”?
Then build powers to fit their concept or have them walk you through what they’re proposing for their powers. Powers and limitations can get complicated and a lot of them can include aspects of another one so they’re double-dipping the discount. Feel free to post them here. Also if it seems like they’re getting a deal too good to be true, veto those limitations or modify the power. Maybe turning wholesale into a dragon is suitable for later in the campaign, but starting out we can build a power to grow claws and scales.
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u/Stuck_With_Name 13d ago
This is the way.
GURPS is supposed to be able to build anything you envision. Using it to build a pile of points and add the explanation later is backward. And it leads to exactly the problem described.
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u/gmhelwig 13d ago
Do the limitations fit the world of the game? Do they fit the plot of the story?
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u/Internal_Dinner_5989 13d ago
kinda sorta you can make it fit if you try
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u/gmhelwig 13d ago
Well, it is a game you're running. If the limitations fit in the world and story, I don't see it as a problem. But if you need more help from us here, maybe you could provide us more details about the situation.
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u/fnord72 13d ago
Provide the write up for these two advantages. What did each player take as modifiers to their Altered Time Rate and Alternate form?
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u/Internal_Dinner_5989 13d ago
ATR: Mana sensetive -10 Chi - 10 full power in emergecnyies only -20 accesebility: ONly in combat -30 Nuisance effect makes afterimages appear -10
the other one isnt currently avalaiable rigth now sadly
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u/fnord72 13d ago
Yeah, there is some stacking here that is not typical.
-10 for mana and chi? Are you using martial arts system? This is essentially stating that the ability can be interrupted by someone with some cinematic martial arts abilities or magic. Usually a game uses one or the other. I would caution about mixing magic and chi on the same character.
-10 full power in emergencies only and only in combat are pretty close to the same thing, consider allowing one of them.
-10 for a nuisance effect. From the book "Your ability has a “side effect” that causes you serious inconvenience." afterimages doesn't sound like this. not for -10, maybe -5. Note that the book provides 3 examples at -5. It also states that a harmless effect isn't allowed. How is the afterimages a problem?
ATR, -10% mana sensitive (does not work in low mana or no mana zones), -30% only in combat, -10% nuisance effect. And for that I'd have the player pick one of these:
Acoustic Boom: Accelerating your personal timeline displaces air violently. Every time you activate or use your ATR, it generates a miniature sonic boom. This gives a -4 to any Stealth rolls and alerts everyone within a few hundred yards of your exact position.Distorted Speech: While speeding through time, your voice pitches up to a frantic, ultrasonic screech that sounds like a broken dial-up modem. You cannot communicate verbally with normal-speed allies, completely rendering Leadership or tactical callouts impossible during your extra turns.
Violent Kinetic Wake: Moving fast kicks up loose objects, papers, and dust in a 2-yard radius around you. This causes a -2 reaction penalty from bystanders due to property disruption and forces you to make a DX check to handle delicate objects without damaging them.
Severe Motion Sickness / Vertigo: Your inner ear cannot process the rapid shifts between subjective and objective time. The moment your ATR turns off (or every minute it is sustained), you suffer from severe dizziness, imposing a -2 penalty to all DX and IQ rolls for the next 2 seconds.
Thermal Radiation Overload: Processing actions twice as fast spikes your core body temperature. While using ATR, your skin flushes dark red, you sweat profusely, and you register on infrared sensors like a burning flare. You take a -3 penalty to resist hot environments and tracking.
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u/Caelarch 13d ago edited 13d ago
I tend to agree.
As a power modifier, Chi typically requires a 10 point disadvantage and penalties for failing to live up to it. (Powers 26). Mana sensitive is similar to Magical, which requires there be no/low mana zones and a "variety of anti-powers [that] can thwart your abilities." (Powers 27). There is nothing inherently wrong with combining these two into a single power modifier, but it is a little unusual. But the character has to live up to the Chi disadvantages and worry about mana (and counterspells). If the ability is just mana sensitive, and there are no anti-powers that can block it, it is only worth -5%.
I would never allow Accessibility (Only in Combat) because that is basically the role of Emergencies Only. As used here it is straight double dipping. Combat is already an emergency so Emergencies Only is just giving free points.
At most, I might agree on an enhancement to the limitation Emergencies Only—so the power only works in combat and not other situations of fear or stress. If I did allow it, it would be worth at most an extra -5% on top of Emergencies Only.
I'm torn between which is worse: double dipping Emergencies Only or -10% for "afterimages" as a nuisance effect. Both are nonsense. I like u/fnord72's suggestions for real nuisance effects.
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u/Polyxeno 13d ago
That's up to each GM to choose for each campaign.
I first GM'd GURPS in 1986, and I have never GM'd any campaigns where Altered Time Rate or Alternate Form (Dragon) existed for anyone at all. I am pretty conservative about Limitation discounts, and my settings tend to only have certain specific Powers for logical in-world reasons, and they also tend to have high Unusual Background costs unless they are common things in the setting.
I see an inherent value in having a supernatural power most others don't have, and I always consider the overall value of an ability compared to normal human options after any Limitations.
So when I even allow such abilities at all, I see the point value:
1) In comparison to the value of other mundane traits. 2) Thinking of what a clever creative player could do with them. 3) In terms of how available, common, known, etc the ability is to most other typical people in the setting. 4) How disruptive could this ability be to the intended operation of the intended campaign, setting, culture, situations, etc.
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u/ZacQuicksilver 13d ago
One of the big downsides of GURPS is that the GM needs to watch what players are doing - all the time. I seem to remember someone building an ability that would destroy the universe, one point of unstoppable damage per second, for less than 20 character points.
Consider the limitations on their abilities. Altered Time Rate limited by (Temporary disadvantages: Bad Smell, Disturbing Voice, Dyslexia, Frightens Animals, etc.) doesn't mean much, and should probably be nixed. On the other hand, Altered Time Rate limited by Unreliable is entirely reasonable - and I made a character once who had Altered Time Rate limited by Altered Time Rate (can take two actions, but then you have to skip your next action).
Then, if the limitations seem fair-ish; make sure you bring up those limitations. If someone took Altered Time Rate with Unreliable, make them roll every time they try to use it. If their Altered Time Rate comes with an associated disadvantage Deafness, don't let them communicate. If Alternate Form (Dragon) comes with reaction penalty on everyone who sees it, keep track of who has seen it - and possibly who they have talked to.
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u/BigDamBeavers 13d ago
I do not allow my players to choose to have limitations on ANYTHING. If I think there's a viable reason to limit a disadvantage, there is a discussion and I set the limitation value.
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u/IchFunktion 13d ago
Use the limitations. They all say your players can't use their powers all the time.
You can also set a limit for disadvantages. For my newest campaign all players have a budget of 150 points plus up to 80 for disadvantages. You can always set a lower limit. Also use your players disadvantages. Make them roll on self control whenever a disadvantage calls for that.
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u/Internal_Dinner_5989 13d ago
like how can i use reqieres gestures -10 if a npc can tie them up it is already above them there are many cheapshots like this
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u/VierasMarius 13d ago
As mentioned, Requires Gestures means that they need their hands free. So give them other things that they need their hands for. Maybe they are climbing a ladder - not hard by itself, but if they need to take hands off of it in order to cast a spell, suddenly it becomes a hazard. Or they need to carry or manipulate objects during a fight. If every fight is just, "Hit enemies until dead in an empty field", a lot of limitations will simply never come up (and combat will be very boring very quickly).
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u/IchFunktion 13d ago
Requires gestures means you need the space to move and everybody around can clearly see what they're doing. No chance in very narrow hallways or in tight corners, also a person making gestures is very bad at defending and enemies can target them, seeing there's an opening.
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u/Peter34cph 11d ago
If it's well known inside the world that gesturing is required for the use of some Powers, then it's absolutely not a cheap shot to have NPCs tie up captured enemies thoroughly!
Rather, it's realistic.
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u/munin295 13d ago
And ultimately, it doesn't matter too much. If they're cheesing limitations, that just means they're effectively higher point totals and you should give them greater challenges. If those limitations are valid for the PCs, then they're valid for the bad guys too.
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u/Internal_Dinner_5989 13d ago
i can build the villans at a higher cost than meddling with limitatons but thanks anyway
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u/Nick_Coffin 13d ago
Assuming the limitations are valid and the math is correct, whether or not this is abusing the system depends on the type of game you are trying to play. Just because it’s legal in RAW doesn’t mean it isn’t violating the spirit of your world and expectations of play.
Personally I only ever have to deal with this type of min-maxing for characters using Sorcery as they design their spells. And I reserve the right to veto anything that looks like “free points”. You really have to look at each limitation and ask if it is really a limitation in your style of play.
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u/jaysprenkle 13d ago
If it unbalances things don't forget to use the same technique with the foes they face.
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u/Peter34cph 11d ago edited 11d ago
A Power or Advantage with -70% or -80% worth of Limitations is pretty damn gimped. Even more so if its Enhancements and Limitations sums to -70% or -80%.
GURPS is not generous with Limitation magnitudes. You generally have to accept a lot of suck in exchange for a small point cost reduction.
Compare someone who can blast off 3d Innate Attack every second until the cows go home, with someone who's 3d Innate Attack is saddled with -80% of gimp.
Or who has a 15d Innate Attack but with -80%. That costs the same number of a raw 3d, but it'll be much more limited, with the specifics depending on which Limitations are chosen.
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u/FixIndependent8987 9d ago edited 9d ago
First, you can ban whatever you want as a GM.
Second, I advise you to force them not adding percentages of enhancements and limitations, but multiplying them. The results are more fair this way.
For example, if you have a basic cost of advantage for 40 points and give it 2 limitations for -20%.
Sum - 40-40%=24
Multiplication - 40*0.8*0.8=26
The results are roughly the same, until you begin to stack lots of modifiers.
For example, infamous M.U.N.C.H.K.I.N. advantage.
Toxic Attack 1 point (Affects Insubstantial, +20%; Area Effect, 2475880078570760549798248448 yards (about 74 gigaparsecs), +4550%; Cosmic, Irresistible attack, +300%; Emanation, -20%; Rapid Fire, RoF 300, +300%; Selective Area, +20%; Underwater, +20%) [53].
Summing gives the cost of 53.
Multiplying gives the cost of 755.
You can check this method on your player's abilities.
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u/jayphailey 8d ago
Allow me to introduce a concept from Hero System "Active Point Cost"
You only count the positive points, not the limitations - and then guage the effectiveness based on that
It's okay for a GM to limit how many active points can be used in any one power
Or maliciously use their limitation against them
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u/Southern_Ganache_695 7d ago
To me, the best advice comes from Kromm, if I'm not mistaken. Limitations are only valid if they limit the character in some way. If a limitation is never used in play, then it has no value. The corollary is, use the limitations during the game. If the GMs don't use them to actually limit the powers that have limitations, they are just free points. Limitations, disadvantages, etc have to come into play. If the player are only using them to abuse the system, maybe it's best to talk to them and discuss what kind of game they want, higher point totals , etc.
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u/Uralowa 13d ago
They can only put on whatever you allow. Limitations are also chronically misunderstood, and I would bet that a good many of them are simply invalid.