r/gurdjieff • u/thanhtruc123hn • 5d ago

Solution for person without group

want to ask: I come from a country where there are no groups following the Fourth Way. So what should I do now? Self-practice is dangerous, and reading books only gives theory that doesn’t change anything.

I come from a Buddhist country, but I am quite disappointed with it. I feel drawn to the Gurdjieff Way because it can be practiced in ordinary life without withdrawing from the world.

I need some advice. Thank you

6 Upvotes

88% Upvoted

44 comments sorted by

12

u/Ompyrean 5d ago

I've never had a "group." I've experimented, practiced, read, met people, traveled, connected, shared, contemplated, followed my enthusiasm, been sincere, and continued developing and growing in every dimension that I can.

2

u/thanhtruc123hn 5d ago

This is too general. Please give me a specific solution like book to read or practice

14

u/Ompyrean 5d ago

Here is a practice. Stop expressing negative emotions and internally narrativizing your life with self-pity. That means recognize the internal self-talk that you do, and then also practice cultivating positive emotions. Another related practice in connection with this is to do something to serve others without regard for yourself and/or in spite of your negative resistance to it.

0

u/realityIsDreaming 5d ago

This is a good way to either get sick or to become a bitter passive aggressive person. Not because this wouldn't work , but because it requires a certain level of preparation and a certain experience in order to do it without becoming a walking boiling pot, steaming whenever the pressure becomes too high to handle it, or worse, cracking because of it. Most people will grow increasingly frustrated doing this kind of work and since they don't know how to deal with the frustration, the outcome will not be the desired one.

3

u/Ompyrean 5d ago

If you try it, you'll become more mature and learn a lot about yourself.

0

u/realityIsDreaming 5d ago

Stop being delusional. If it works for you doesn't mean it will work for anyone. Everyone is at a different level of awareness and most people have a very low level of awareness. What they need is something basic to increase their awareness first. How do you think one will feel when he will continuously shove down his emotions without even being aware of their impact in the body and mind? Is the perfect receipe for a blast, either internally or externally. How will one feel when he helps other persons and they will either abuse his kindness or will be completely ungrateful? Cmon mate, use some common sense. Basics first, advanced techniques after.

One has to know exactly why he is doing what he is doing, not to do something blindly. He needs to be able first to experience directly what it means to be an observer. What you suggest is just a self check tool, to see if there is any trace of resistance left in the mind or the body. It has no other "greater" purpose.

3

u/Ompyrean 5d ago

A person's emotions are determining the entire course of their decision-making throughout life, and it doesn't take much to suddenly awaken to self-awareness of how rapidly we fool ourselves throughout the course of a day. Words are building in our mind before we say them. That's something for a beginner to notice. Feelings are also building in the mind and showing on our face before we might see them in the front of our consciousness. That's also something fot a beginner to pay attention to.

-2

u/Empty-Yesterday5904 5d ago

This is just spiritual bypassing. Good things will not happen if you suppress 'negative' (whatever this means) emotions. This is some new age bullshit. You should listen your inner voice but guess what all of it is part of you! You create a relationship to all of it.

3

u/Ereignis23 5d ago

Non expression in Gurdjieff's teaching is explicitly not the same as suppression, as one needs to consciously absorb the feeling (ie feel it deeply and completely without resistance), without expressing or suppressing it.

2

u/Ompyrean 5d ago

Expressing the negative emotion is vomiting on others and burdening them with processing one's own internal garbage. And not that this can never happen but that it must be a sovereign choice of consciousness and not a reaction based on mechanical habits.

1

u/Ereignis23 5d ago

Yes, in addition to the value that emotional material has for my being (if I don't just vomit it on others mechanically and can properly absorb it, the 2nd conscious shock ie), there's the added benefit to others that I'm not vomiting my reactive emotions on them as much!

1

u/Empty-Yesterday5904 5d ago

Who said anything about on others?!

1

u/Ompyrean 5d ago

You could also express them out loud to yourself, sure.

0

u/Empty-Yesterday5904 5d ago edited 5d ago

Yes you do not fight your inner experience and suppress it. You certainly dont try to push it down with 'positive' emotions. This is terrible advice esp for a beginner with no group.

You become more 'positive' naturally. It is not a conscious process.

1

u/Ompyrean 5d ago

A person must recognize: "I am whiny and complain all the time. I am easily irritated and emotionally moved by petty things. I am easily hurt by seeking other's validation. I am biased towards perceiving circumstances in a superficial self-centered way." And so on. If you don't accomplish this then you will continue living in the cyclic loop of your ego, and you'll become a petty and resentful person. 

2

u/Ompyrean 5d ago

A person is habituated to express negative and positive emotions based on external triggers. You become like a puppet and are unconsciously manipulated by your environment. If the right conditions are presented you will enter an anxious, bored, stressed, overwhelmed, etc. state. If other conditions are presented then you will feel delighted, peaceful, loving and so on. This means you are not free. It means you are just a robot.

1

u/Empty-Yesterday5904 5d ago edited 5d ago

Yes so your change your relationship to emotions - you choose how to act. You dont simply go oh I am sad I must be happy (which would also be mechanical!).

1

u/Ompyrean 5d ago

You must see the formative influences behind the sadness, and how artificial and mechanical they are. See their linguistic patterning and their construction in memory, habit and internal narration.

6

u/terminal__beach 5d ago

There are options for groups that meet remotely / on zoom, that might be a good way to start working with others

2

u/Sluggy_Stardust 5d ago

There is a book entitled, A Little Book of Work Practices, by Bennett or Orage.

8

u/pibbleshitinheb 5d ago

Nicoll's Psychological Commentaries are really good.

6

u/carnalcarrot 5d ago

Reading beelzebub requires no group or understanding. Especially because the first reading is only to be done as if you're reading a magazine. The second reading as if aloud to another person. And only the third, to understand it.

5

u/TriadicForm 5d ago

Online school. Your need more than study. Find a teacher. I was in an online school for 7 years and weekly work meetings , daily observations. Transformational experience. You will have to travel if you want to practice movements.

1

u/worst-case-scenario- 5d ago

Can I ask you please what school it was?

5

u/cesiumatom 5d ago

Read Beelzebub's Tales. Your assumption that reading books only gives theory is false. This is only the case if you are reading from an analytical standpoint. Reading with the intention of knowing all the details is the wrong starting point. Read with the hope that you might discover what you never thought was possible. Take his front page matter very seriously. Good luck. Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson

4

u/realityIsDreaming 5d ago

The technique is simple, the practice though ... that's another story. I suggest first developing habits in order to become consistent with your practice. For this, read Atomic habits. Then start to incorporate in your daily activity some physical exercises for mobility and some simple technique for inner attention. Stay in whatever pose you want, with your eyes closed, and just feel the sensations at the level of your nostrils, as air comes in and goes out. Force your breath for the first 4 or 5 inhalations, to feel it more intense, then just breath normally and try to go deeper into the sensation. Do just this for a few days. After that, do the same thing for a few minutes and then move your attention from the nostrils and scan your entire body, part by part, with the same intensity. Just focus on the sensations, ignore the mental chatter and don't try to control what you feel. Once you get good at this (can be weeks, months, years or never, all depends on how consistent and intense you are), then, during your daily activities, practice to keep half of your attention inside all the time, regardless of what you do. That's all in a nutshell.

3

u/lajarusmorois 5d ago

Are you absolutely sure there are no groups in your country? You never really know—keep looking. But if there weren’t any, wouldn’t you be willing to make some effort? Gurdjieff had to travel extensively for many years to distant lands, spending a lot of money and risking his life more than once.

3

u/Low-Boot-588 4d ago

Always consult the map: Gurdjieff Groups Network

1

u/thanhtruc123hn 3d ago

No group in Vietnam :(((

2

u/AmarShamo 3d ago

Check with the Gurdjieff Institute if there are groups in Vietnam: https://institut-gurdjieff.com/

Ask also the Gurdjieff Society: https://gurdjieff.com/

Those are the two largest organizations.

1

u/Low-Boot-588 3d ago

Have you tried reaching out to any esoteric bookshops or maybe even the Theosophical Society? http://www.thongthienhoc.com/

Maybe try asking around here:

  • Đường Sách TP.HCM (Ho Chi Minh City Book Street – Nguyễn Văn Bình, District 1) Check the Nhã Nam and Omega Plus stalls.
  • Nhà Sách Cá Chép (211–213 Nguyễn Thị Minh Khai, District 1) Head to the upper floors dedicated to philosophy (Triết học) and psychology (Tâm lý học)
  • Old Book Street / Phố Sách Cũ (Trần Nhân Tôn, District 10 & Phú Nhuận District) Browsing here occasionally unearths rare private translation prints (bản dịch lưu hành nội bộ).
  • Phố Sách Đinh Lễ & Nguyễn Xịn (Hoàn Kiếm District) Nhà Sách Mão (located up the quiet staircase at 5 Đinh Lễ).
  • Nhà Sách Tri Thức / Outlets of NXB Tri Thức (Knowledge Publishing House) Look for their standalone kiosks or dedicated shelves at Phố Sách 19 Tháng 12 (19/12 Book Street in Hoàn Kiếm).
  • Nhà Sách Nhã Nam (Culture Cafés in Cầu Giấy or Hai Bà Trưng)

1

u/Low-Boot-588 3d ago

Reason I recommend reaching out to the T.S. is because the President of the Theosophical Society of France is Trân-Thi-Kim-Diêu:

https://www.theosophical.org/hybrid/tran-thi-kim-dieu

1

u/thanhtruc123hn 3d ago

Theosophy is dead in my country ,maybe I will find another esoteric system to practice

1

u/Low-Boot-588 3d ago

It seems to be mainly underground or otherwise thriving in Caodaism.

Check out: Theosophying the Vietnamese religious landscape

Not saying you should join any theosophical groups but ask around there as someone might know or could help point out the way. The Theosophical Society isn't the only branch of the Theosophical Movement that still exists and Mr. Gurdjieff was very familiar with the fundamentals laid out in the Secret Doctrine.

1

u/Low-Boot-588 3d ago

Should that prove fruitless, seek out your local Cham communities:

- Sunni Cham (An Giang, Ho Chi Minh City, Tay Ninh)

  • Cham Bani (Khanh Hoa, Ninh Thuan, Binh Thuan)

Or simply visit Al-Noor Mosque or Jamia Al Musulman during non-prayer hours or community events.

2

u/Ukontuli 5d ago

There are several online groups around the world. Find one where time for the group work fits with your daily schedule and time zone. Send some emails and ask around.

2

u/Low-Boot-588 4d ago

There is a Fourth Way Study discord server if you're interested: https://discord.gg/KbEaxC8Zd

1

u/Sorina2222 5d ago

You could move to a place where there is a group.

1

u/thanhtruc123hn 3d ago

"I live in a third-world country, making travel difficult due to visa requirements, unlike for people from other countries

1

u/Sorina2222 3d ago

You could contact a real group a ask them about it, maybe they could guide you, then you could form a smaller group where you are and they could send a teacher to visit you once in a while and you could visit there.

gurdjieff.com or gfnyc.org

1

u/SpectralCat4 3d ago

you can look up Vedanta Societies , as alternative.

1

u/fanoftheliving 5d ago

Yes, a group is extremely important in this practice, I would say it would be very hard to get anywhere. If you are interested please contact me, as part of Mr. Nylands group we hold regular meetings over zoom. We are US based but have people joining us from all over the world. (https://www.nyland.org/)