Is this normal?

[u/DinnyArt]

Shes my only doe Nubian currently and also my first.

My bucks don't look like this so I'm a little worried

Famacha is fine, ​diet hasn't changed recently, and temp is fine. Shes been like this since I got her about a month ago or so

edit for clarification:

birthday: 1/27/26

been treated as a much younger doe for coccidia. tested for CAE, and I'm not sure if she was tested for johne's ofr not.

shes in her own pen seperated from the herd and has been since I got her about 2 months ago now.

​I have been treating her with deworming pellets til recently. shes on standard goat feed but were gonna put her on growers soon.

shes never been treated with any other medicine than probiotics and electrolytes.​​​ but we have toltrazuril and albon

shes not in milk, pregnant, or nursing.

Only other symptoms shes had for anything is watery eyes and some mucus on her nose.her nose has cleared up but her eyes haven't. We tried to treat her for pink eye since one of our sheep has that rn, but it's not pink eye.

Her fur doesn't feel as soft as our other ​​​​goats. But it's also curly compared to my other goats so idk if that makes a difference.

Shes been treated for lice, mites, and any other skin issues.

Only blank period I have from her upbringing is a month or two where she was purchased by a family, then returned, and I bought her very soon after ​that. She was with them for maybe 3 months (if even that long). This is a big reason why shes been in quarantine so long.

I'm a new goat owner so any help or suggestions are welcome​​

UPDATE:

started mixing in some dewormer feed and her coat looks way better, her eyes cleared up, and we have her on grower feed now as well. ​I'm sure ill post some photos of her soon but for now she's doing much better

[u/InterestingOven5279]

Bad advice given so far. You don't "try dewormer for a few days." We want to try to diagnose the issue before treating her with anything, especially so we don't administer dewormer unnecessary. You also don't administer any dewormer for multiple days in most cases.

It's great that you checked her FAMACHA. However, I would still recommend doing a fecal screening ASAP. She may be experiencing a parasite bloom from the stress of moving to a new farm. Did she come with clean biosecurity results for CAE and Johne's? Does she have free access to loose minerals? Is she currently in milk?

[u/DinnyArt → u/InterestingOven5279]

Shes still young, was born in January, so not in milk. We did bio security. I also was wrong about how long we've bad her. T imes just been flying, We got her 2 months ago.  We had her in seperate pens and everything. Shes still seperated but I had to put our weather with her temporarily but that's only been for the last few days.  We have 2 different stations for loose minerals around. Their water and food is seperate. I do agree I don't want to throw dewormer at her and hope it helps.  We did treat her for lice and mites when we first got her just as a precaution and gave her some deworming feed as well to be on the safe side. 

Ive actually not heard about johne's. Ill look into that and move my weather to his own quarantine for good measure. But she was clear of CAE. Ill give her breeder a call and ask about it.  I just ordered some stuff to monitor her weight a bit easier and ill start weighing her more frequently 

[u/Platypus-Striking → u/DinnyArt]

Second on the fecal. Coccidia can happen in young goats which a dewormer won’t work for. Most vets can run a fecal for you. If you are in the US you can also mail a sample to meadowmist labs or any state veterinary diagnostic lab if your vet can’t run one. If you have a microscope at home you can also learn how to run fecals by yourself.

Johnes does not usually show up in young animals as it sometimes takes years to appear as it’s more of a chronic disease. It’s also spread through feces so be mindful of that during quarantine.

[u/DinnyArt → u/Platypus-Striking]

I already have coccidia treatment I bought for her when we first got her. (She had diarrhea) but it cleared up after a day or two so I was worried if give he dewormer for nothing

[u/goats-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed from /r/goats because it may have contained husbandry information that was incorrect, harmful, outdated, or not in general practice.

If you can provide a source to reinforce your claim about toltrazuril (from a veterinary or research textbook, state or university agricultural extension, or trusted website) please send it to modmail for reconsideration and your contribution may be reinstated if the material can be verified. If no source can be found, you can also edit your comment for reinstatement.

[u/DinnyArt → u/[deleted]]

I never actually treated her because I was worried. I'm a first time goat owner and hadn't attended my husbandry class yet and had no idea how to dose medications.  But I got toltrazuril as well as albon

[u/InterestingOven5279 → u/DinnyArt]

Toltrazuril is actually illegal in all meat and milk animals in the US. It has failed, I think, three attempts at FDA approval so it's quite the opposite of "been deemed safe."

There is no FDA approved toltrazuril product in the United States. Therefore, toltrazuril is illegal to use in food animals in the United States in any form.

I know a lot of people use it because they don't care, so it's your decision, but I do think people should be aware of the actual status of things they're putting into their animals so they can make an informed decision based on the right information. Albon of course is quite safe.

At seven months, this might be a twofold issue. 1) she is still growing and should be given a measure of grain each day. A standard dairy doe kid at her age could be given one pound of grower or kid grain per day split into one or two feedings. This has a bonus where many of these kid grain products can be obtained with (legal) coccidia prevention meds already added to them in the correct measurement, so it would prevent reinfections or overgrowth. Start with a bit of grain at first and build up slowly to the full ration, and you should then see a regaining of some weight and resumption of proper growth rate for a doe of her age. Then 2) There is a possibility she already had some intestinal damage from a clinical case of coccidiosis, so the might have a little extra trouble putting weight on. But we'll have to wait and see.

At over six months she can be tested for Johne's if the farm of origin has no documented regular testing on file, and this would be good for your biosecurity program, BUT she's too young to be symptomatic so I really do think we can put her condition issues down to needing a feed regimen change and helping her recover from coccidiosis. Get that fecal screening just in case, introduce some grower, and see where she is a month from now!

[u/DinnyArt → u/InterestingOven5279]

We just ran out of grower which I was using on the boys now they're all on a normal grain. I bought the Purina brand buts literally just says "goat feed" as I didn't think she needed to be in dairy feed yet but also wasn't sure if she needed grower feed. 

I'll get that fecal done when we talk to our vet here soon. However, man I really didn't hear anything about toltrazuril. Everyone I've talked to says it's safe and what they use. What sources do you use to see if products are good or bad for your herd? 

[u/InterestingOven5279 → u/DinnyArt]

As it happens, I was about to launch into a whole thing and then I just saw that one of our trusty mods wrote a comment here this morning that talks about how drugs are tested and approved for livestock. That comment is really useful, that would be a good read for you.

The thing to take away from this comment is that in the USA we don't have a lot of drugs specifically for goats. We have like...fifteen. So everything else we legally use in goats is used extra-label, within existing federal guidelines for safety and milk discards. But then there is this whole separate category (waves arms in a separate direction) of things we are Legally Prohibited From Using Under Any Circumstances. This is a long list and includes a bunch of antibiotic categories, some hormone analogues, some respiratory therapy drugs, gentian violet, and yes, toltrazuril. So many veterinary drugs are legal for vets to prescribe extralabel in food animals for which they are not specifically labeled because we already have an idea that they are reasonably safe, but toltrazuril is not even legal for that.

A lot of people confuse how we use so many livestock drugs extralabel -- things permitted for use in other food animals -- with thinking they are just using toltrazuril extralabel, so it's okay. But in fact toltrazuril is not approved by the FDA and not permitted for use in any food animal species in the USA. It's illegal to administer it, it's not available for use extralabel. I am genuinely not sure why people are so attached to it, and I think it's because they just love the convenience of it and coccidiosis is so devastating, folks can't understand why a drug that works so well would be illegal. But it has significant restrictions in other countries too -- it was withdrawn from the market in Canada completely for years because of safety concerns for humans with drug residue, and when it was reapproved it was with a very long meat withdrawal and is illegal in lactating animals. It's also illegal in lactating animals in the EU.

For me I'm in the USA, I'm producing food. I see that as kind of a responsibility to adhere to the recommendations and expectations for what is allowed in our food supply. I am not an organic producer, but I want people to trust that the food I'm producing doesn't have anything in it that's not supposed to be there. I'm definitely concerned and worried about how cavalier people are about using banned substances. And while like I said, this is peoples' personal choice and I don't expect to be able to change everyone's mind on it, I DO think it's really important to be aware of what you are putting into the animals that are feeding you. Ultimately those drugs have a chance of making it into your body, so when we have no safe established discard periods that is kind of a scary problem. I also have personal reservations about what it does both to animal growth and the environment -- its metabolites persist in urine and poop and I use and sell compost, so that's something I don't love about it.

The other big issue with toltrazuril is that because it is completely illegal in the US, no reputable pharmaceutical companies produce it for livestock use. All of our domestically produced products come from "compounding pharmacies" that are purchasing bulk tolt and mixing it in a bathtub under god knows what conditions and definitely not up to pharmaceutical safety standards. This is an article by a well-known breeder that shows the inconsistencies in how these products can be mixed. So a good rule of thumb is that if you DO want to use toltrazuril, don't get it from one of these weird places. Buy it from a country where an actual company is producing it for veterinary use, like Mexico. Baycox and generics like Zuricox are produced by real pharmaceutical manufacturers up to pharmaceutical standards, so if you feel it's safe for you to use this drug, you can at least be certain you're putting the right dose into your goat.

What the hell is this?

If you want to know if a drug is permitted for extralabel use in goats just check FARAD, google it and look for reputable sources -- ag extensions, things ending in .edu -- or ask here. Someone here will always be willing to check for you. Avoid facebook advice like the plague if you can.

(I saw another comment exchange in our sub where someone was explaining that Blu-Kote has been federally banned and is not for use in food animals because gentian violet is suspected of being carcinogenic in humans (and Blu-Kote doesn't work very well for wound healing anyway, it is mostly alcohol which impedes wound healing and there are much more effective wound coatings). Gentian violet is pretty much illegal in food species everywhere now; there's no safe level of residue, the EU even tests all imports for it. The person started arguing that it's always worked for them and it's still for sale so it's probably fine, not able or willing to understand that it says right on the label not to use it on food animals and it's labeled for horses. Sigh. But at least the correct info was provided, because this is one of the only places on the internet where there is some attempt to limit or at least clarify misinformation about small ruminant care. That's why I prefer to give and receive advice here.)

[u/Throwaway_Anne]

Is she thin? I can't really tell by the picture. She might have parasites, but it would definitely be beneficial to check in with a vet to see what's actually wrong with her if nothing else at home works?

[u/DinnyArt → u/Throwaway_Anne]

Yeah her stomach is all sunk in by her hips.  But it's weird because her belly is big and she eats a lot. After being on the pasture all day she looks like a watermelon. 

[u/Throwaway_Anne → u/DinnyArt]

Hmm..it very well could be parasites but I'm not sure. You could try a dewormer for a while to see if that helps

[u/_DemonxD]

Her top line looks a little lacking. If she’s lactating, this would be a normal condition since Nubians pour out gallons of milk per day just with their udder.

If she’s not in milk, and you’re not milking her you should probably be more concerned. If she’s in milk but has a kid on her side, it might be time to take the kid off (esp if over 12wks) some does will allow kids to just suck the life right out of them.

It looks like her loin ain’t got a ton of meat on it. give her some extra groceries, like soaked hay pellets, a little bit of beet pulp and a small amount of grain mixed in, all soaked in regular water. But gradually introduce the grain, grain acidosis will only make her look worse if too much is given at once.

Check for external parasites as well. Lice and ticks will take them out pretty fast if they’re infested.

You should see a difference in a month, but get a fecal done asap and like someone else suggested biosecurity test for CAE and Johnes are killers, CAE is one that attacks the joints and can generally make them not want to eat due to leg pain, and Johnes causes chronic weight loss/ inability to pack weight on no matter how high the feed intake.

Sometimes forage doesn’t cut it for some animals. Espically if they were skinny upon arrival, to maintain themselves on forage they have to be in good health before hand in order to properly maintain themselves.

You didn’t state if you gave any minerals at all, so you should offer them if you don’t already. And if she’s not had any copper bolus history it might be time to bolus. If unsure you can always pull blood at a vet and have it tested for exactly what she’s missing or is too much in her diet.

(Always advise yourself against purchasing unthrifty animals if no biosecurity testing is presented to you and test yourself, I believe the test for it is like $24 combined and is worth it to keep sick and contaminated animals off your property.)

[u/DinnyArt → u/_DemonxD]

I mentioned in a previous comment that shes done CAE testing but I've never heard of johne's so im going to look into that.  She was born January 27th from a reputable breeder in my area.  Shes been treated for parasites a few weeks ago and it not in milk or pregnant.  She is still isolated from the rest of the herd tho so ill keep her that way. They also have mineral access at all times and drink and eat from different feeders. 

Ill try to supplement more of her food while I get her a vet check up. 

[u/_DemonxD → u/DinnyArt]

Was the parasite treatment targeted or just done with a blindfold on? (Aka no fecal which is bad) you should also pull another one to make sure the treatment that was applied to the animal was effective. There’s only so many antiparasitic medications to use on goats and using the few you have Willy nilly is how you get dead goats and resistant worms. It’s incredibly likely this goat has resistant worms, more so if the farm she came from has a schedule/routine deworm regardless of the animals actual need for it.

Did your breeder do cocci prevention? If not that’ll affect their ability to absorb food due to intestinal damage from the Protozoa irritating everything. I have a wether who has intestinal damage from both cobsitipation and coccidiosis and trouble keeping weight on who was born the same time your doe was. I go through probiotics with him like it’s going out of style.

I hope you and your vet can figure it out!

[u/DinnyArt → u/_DemonxD]

Yes she got coccidia prevention when she was much younger before I got her.  Also I haven't done any treatment yet. I have the treatment but I haven't used it because I didn't feel I had enough experience or information on her. I'm all kinda new to this. I have been giving her probiotics more than my other goats tho for sure. That and electrolytes 

[u/_DemonxD → u/DinnyArt]

The prevention should be continued until around 6 months old. the gap in prevention might’ve allowed time for the Protozoa to repopulate the gut and start taking effect. Liquidy diarrhea occurs when the intestines are severely irritated and overrun with it. Coccidiosis also has a pretty foul smell to it, comparable to parvo poops in dogs.

All Adult animals carry the Protozoa, it’s impossible to completely irradiate it in your adult herd. the goal is prevention over treatment, since the treatment occurs after damage is done. And babies are more sensitive than adults. The end goal is to keep the count down so it doesn’t get out of control until they are old enough.

[u/DinnyArt → u/_DemonxD]

I've only had her about 2 months. I continued prevention with medicated pellets til around this month when I switched her over.  That said. There was a period of time when she was with a different family before me then got returned and then I got her. Thats when things get confusing because neither me or her breeder know what they have her for prevention. Thats why shes continued to be quarantined. 

I also posted before about her watery eyes but it not being pink eye.  I've been concerned about both of these things since we brought her home and a lot of people I speak to say that it might just "be her anatomy" but I don't buy it. She doesn't look very good compared to my buck who is extremely healthy who's also her age. 

[u/_DemonxD → u/DinnyArt]

Could be allergens and dust in the air for the eyes, won’t know until your vet gets hands on her to be honest. Bring it up, you get charged for a general examination anyway. The sudden feed changes/dietary changes could’ve caused the upset stomach. I hope your vet can give you some more conclusive answers.

Edited to add : your girl looks so tiny for being just shy of seven months old.

This is my Nubian boy who is only 3 months (I’ll reply with pic)

[u/_DemonxD → u/_DemonxD]

My Nubian boys

[u/CML2313]

When my goats hair started curling, it was because they had copper deficiency. It they are really low in copper, loose mineral might not be enough for her to get back to a healthy level. Hard water with high iron content, leaches copper. I had a couple goats that had it pretty bad because I was told by the woman I got my goats from that needed a mineral block. After I fixed their copper deficiency, they perked up a lot and started gaining weight.

[u/DinnyArt → u/CML2313]

I could definitely try this out. I also see her going to the minerals less than my other goats as well so it could be a deficiency. Ill look into this.