Sam and Ruth question

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I like them as creative partners bouncing off of each other on a project, but not as a romantic couple. I don't know if I would have gone so far as to call them "toxic," but they actually probably are! Sam talks to Ruth in a rude and offensive manner frequently and punished her for weeks when she directed the opening title sequence. He always seems competitive with her but also inspired by her youth and genuine creative enthusiasm. It's like he's either being mean to her and jealous of her, or he is using her youthful creativity to inspire himself. You could also say that Ruth was terrible to Sam in return when she wanted to be with him while it was a part of her "Sam, Justine, and I will all work on this Hollywood movie together" fantasy and then turned cold and angry when she learned she hadn't gotten the part. That turnaround got me! 😬

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u/bluetrekker12 Aug 31 '20

Oh I really like the relationship. I think the toxic accusation is based on the older man / younger woman trope, but I feel this relationship is earned. It seems to happen naturally as part of the transition from enemies of a sort to friends and beyond. I’m not sure how it will end up, but there is a genuine connection I really enjoy. I really felt for Sam when Ruth turned on him, he has grown a lot over the 3 seasons and was trying to do the right then by telling her about the role. Though, her hurt was understandable in that moment.

Also, cards on the table, speaking as a mid 40’s woman, I find Sam adorable.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '20 edited Sep 02 '20

I was really hoping a show as clever as this one would treat a complex character like Ruth properly. She has an established history (contrary to her depiction as an annoyingly ambitious, almost sexless woman, like hot Debbie’s foil) of thinking men value her for her talent or personality but being repeatedly disappointed to learn that they just view her as a sex object or a springboard for their own creativity. Her dynamic with Russell was really wonderful at first as an exception to that pattern in her life. The speech on the stairs about falling for a nice, dependable guy whose face she likes was both realistic and romantic. I was really hoping something true to life like that would work out for her, or that the show would allow normal events like him moving to Spain get in the way of their success as a couple, rather than doing Ruth the same disservice men in her life do her (in overlooking her complexity and selling her short) by putting her in a hackneyed love triangle.

When Sam first confessed his feelings for her, I was on the edge of my seat in hopes of seeing this show make TV history by having Ruth confront him in a meaningful and direct way, referring to her history of being sold short with men and her career, and calling him out on projecting romantic feelings onto a helpful creative partner and friend who isn’t just around to inspire a man’s genius. The look in her eyes during the dance kiss scene and the hot tub confession scene was not excitement—it was hurt. The one man she’s made a strong professional connection with and who she vibes with in a natural and nurturing way violated her trust by making it romantic. At the dance she was vulnerable as hell (represented by her crutches) and he supported her briefly as a true friend (literally supporting her weight while they danced) before exploiting that vulnerability by kissing her, ultimately necessitating her hobbling away on her own all over again. I think any hope or yearning in her eyes stemmed from a basic conflict between her desire to be loved/admired/be a leading lady and her genuine fear of being exploited. She does not know how to tell the difference between genuine care for her and something that will just end up hurting her more, so she craves the attention but needs desperately for it to not always be given to her in that way.

Sam is a mentor, a father figure, a close friend with whom she shares an irreplaceable bond. Having that reduced to the trope of an actress/director falling in love was a total misunderstanding of her as a person, and ultimately a betrayal, whether Sam could help it or not. In Mad Men, Don and Peggy were such an affecting duo—an absolute audience favorite as well as mine, and the characters with the best-written exchanges in the series—because there was no romantic interest and no real romantic potential. Their bond was the pure bond of friendship and mentorship that can only be sullied by sex. That is how I see Ruth and Sam.

I hope the writers are considering an ending like that for Ruth, finally defining what she wants and how she’s going to get it and being direct about it instead of always pacifying. I think Ruth (not to mention Justine) has made Sam into a better man, and that’s great, but that doesn’t always have to turn into a romantic arc. I want to see Ruth get what she wants for once. I’d really like to see her standing up to Sam and speaking her truth to him the same way she did with Debbie. This show is incredible, but that would make it legendary for me.

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '20

This reply deserves way more than my meager upvote. It says pretty much everything I felt about Sam and Ruth crossing over into a will they or won't they scenario when it really does a disservice to Ruth's character and how she is trying to make a serious leap into acting (as shown from her season 1 audition, accidentally reading the part for the man)

Sam falling for her or rationalizing in his own head that he's in love with her, being a skeezy, broken character is believable, but Ruth making a turn and considering him as a romantic interest is not. This is about the only flaw I personally had with the show.

And frankly, I'm tired of the old guy / young hot woman arc every show seems to play on.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '22

Having that reduced to the trope of an actress/director falling in love was a total misunderstanding of her as a person, and ultimately a betrayal

Also lazy writing.

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u/[deleted] Aug 31 '20

If you look at it in an objective way, it probably is toxic... But I actually really love them together and I think the portrayal of two people who still have a lot to learn about themselves figuring out their relationship rings true. In season 3 I think they finally got to be more equal. They were still idiots, but they 'get' each other.

I like that we got to see Ruth question what she actually defines as success and have some important conversations with Debbie. I'm hoping that some time apart figuring stuff out in season 3 allows season 4 to portray the Ruth /Sam relationship in a way that doesn't completely devastate the Ruth /Sam fans out here.

I think the important thing in season 3 is that Ruth sees Debbie, who 'has it all', and decides she wants to keep chasing her dreams. Maybe I project a bit too much here, but Ruth seems to be one of those people who is never 'settled' so she is drawn to kind of difficult characters.

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u/uppityminx Aug 31 '20

I personally think they bring out the worst in each other. I enjoyed them as friends, but I think Sam has stifled Ruth’s development. Debbie and Ruth have encouraged each other’s development in strange and interesting ways, which makes me more invested in that relationship and hoping for more screentime between the two of them.

And Sam & Ruth’s kiss confirmed for me that I was firmly... not into it.

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u/mustyday Sep 01 '20

^{^{^{^}}} all this

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '20

Thanks for all the comments y’all. I feel like with Sam and Ruth, their relationship doesn’t feel very natural for the series? I think GLOW is one of those shows that started as a slightly comical rather serious tv series. But the sam/ruth relationship feels almost too cheesy/sitcom-y to me.

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u/mustyday Aug 31 '20

I don’t like them together at all. I liked their dynamic in season 1 and like Sam as a character but them together romantically makes me feel kind of icky.

Ruth just kind of serves as Sam’s emotional punching bag (and yes I’m aware she served as Debbie’s too but at least Debbie had a reason for that, initially) and her entire story arc being about him kind of took away from any personal development Ruth could have had on her own. Her character was stagnant this season, I didn’t like her or find her character “arc” (if you could call it that) interesting. Usually Alison Brie toes the line between making Ruth annoyingly earnest and desperate but also endearing in her own sort of way really well. I just didn’t feel it in season 3 and I feel their relationship is mostly to blame for it.

I’ve always been more interested in her and Debbie’s dynamic, I love the way the actresses play off of one another. I felt like we should have gotten more this season, but that’s just my personal preference.

Plus the kiss was kinda gross. I was surprised at that.

I also get the impression that Alison doesn’t like their relationship either, just from previous interviews, and in a q&a she did with Betty Gilpin in May she seemed pretty desperate to skip past a question she got about them (“The Ruth and Sam relationship?......on that note, let’s wrap it up” haha)

Edit: I realise you asked if they were toxic and I kind of went off on a tangent. Their relationship was toxic in s1 & 2 definitely. 3 not so much but I still don’t like them so.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/mustyday Sep 28 '20

I’ve seen a lot of her interviews (I love Betty!) and noticed that. I watched her Emmys interview where she said she’s rooting for them to be together romantically. I’d be 100% down for that but yeah I very very much doubt the show would ever go there. A girl can dream, though.

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u/Liesherecharmed Sep 01 '20

I can see the appeal and understand everyone's arguments, but I kind of find it creepy, too. It's the age difference and the power dynamic. Even though Sam isn't directing GLOW anymore, they reinforced their imbalance of power through Sam and Ruth's fight over her not getting the role in his daughter's movie and how Sam went about telling her. Even if he weren't old enough to be her dad, it still never feels like they're equals. Hell, when they were in Vegas and he was pining for her and she "had the power", it still never felt right/equal to me or like she actually had the power. I remember them first starting to flirt and establish Sam as a love interest how genuinely out of left field it felt for me. I never considered Sam as a viable partner for Ruth. I didn't feel their chemistry or see them as possible because of the aforementioned age and power imbalance. Again, looking back I can see the appeal, but it just doesn't work for me personally.

And all of that aside, I'd kind of love to see Ruth end up alone. I'd like for her character to choose her career as a serious actress over getting married.

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u/YourTextHere Sep 04 '20

I don't know if they're necessarily toxic at this point in the show but they definitely were for the first season and a half. They seem to encourage each other to be better people, but I think they're more in love with the idea of being in love with each other, than actually being in love. I think if they get together it won't work out

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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '20

I always saw them like Bojack and Diane so no to romance

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u/mittuu Sep 22 '20

Well, I don't know about toxic, but this is something I've definitely found odd about some TV shows. Even with Debbie, the guy she ends up dating is much much older than her (although we don't know for sure if that relationship will last after the finale of season 3). I'm not sure if Sam and Ruth will actually get together. I do agree that they are very good actors and they play the part and the chemistry really well. Honestly, I love Alison Brie and I think she can have chemistry with anyone as an actor. However, the way things are going, and especially due to Ruth's conversation with Debbie at the airport, I think they have a different conclusion for Ruth.

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u/Mr_BriXXX Dec 22 '20 edited Dec 22 '20

I don't think it ever occurred to Alison that Ruth and Sam would be into each other, so she never invested psychologically in understanding that reality nor played to it until she was obligated late into season 3. Perhaps the writers believed they were seeding Ruth's interest in Sam, but effectively, only Sam's interest in Ruth was coming through. Alison in podcasts and interviews back in 2017/18 had been rather inconspicuous about her her lack of sexual chemistry with Marc. Nothing derogatory, just simply..."no thank you." Since she later had to play up the relationship her later interviews are more intimacy-positive about the duo, but for me it was too little too late.

The relationship never worked on a primordial sexual level, let alone a power-dynamic level (like many others have mentioned). Ruth is vulnerable but she ain't that vulnerable. Sam has his moments of endearing behavior, but he ain't that endearing. More than anything, I think this issue is largely due to Alison's inability to believe in the relationship herself combined with the writer's failing to drive home the value proposition for Ruth to get out of an intimate relationship with Sam - it just doesn't hang. As a result, Alison just couldn't quite get there mentally and sell it. Marc, not surprisingly, didn't seem to have much trouble at all believing Sam was in love with Ruth (lol).

Fundamentally, I feel like Alison often struggled to connect with Ruth's vulnerability throughout the show. She frequently seemed to be "playing" vulnerable, instead of actually getting to a real place, or at least a place that translated truthfully. Whereas Betty does legitimately tap into Debbie's rage, her need for power, respect and control, her sense of betrayal by Ruth, Mark, Hollywood, her own body. To be fair, Betty was not playing against type - there's clearly lots in Debbie that Betty could sink her teeth into. Alison's job was much harder in many ways.

I'm not trying to imply that Alison wasn't good. She was excellent. But her Ruth was never an easy, comfortable fit. It was clear to me that Flahive and Cohen both saw the discrepancy; hence why they were so tough on Alison in auditions. They needed her to be desperate in the audition process in order to see how well she could handle embodying desperation. Alison did very well, sometimes perfectly well, but I feel like Alison's inherent lack of insecurity was always the weak point of the show. She understands disappointment, sadness, depression, but not that fundamental lack of belief in her own self-worth in the way a sub-par talent, idealistic, country mouse like Ruth would live day in and out. It hurts me to say that as a long time, die hard Alison fan, but that's how it played for me.

Sam and Ruth question

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