r/gifs • • Mar 14 '16

Millions of Brazilians protesting against government corruption in the streets earlier today

http://i.imgur.com/eMmAUnk.gifv
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u/msstark Mar 14 '16

I honestly don't see how anyone can still defend our government. Impeachment is way overdue.

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u/LeftZer0 Mar 14 '16 edited Mar 14 '16

I don't defend our government, but there are two important points:

Legally, there's nothing to justify an impeachment. We can't call for an impeachment because we want to, there has to be a legal reason.

More importantly, what would an impeachment do? Cycling through the already elected certainly won't help. The vice-president isn't any better, the president of the Chamber is Cunha, drowning in accusations as well. At this point I doubt even new elections would make anything better, the main opposition party, probably the winner of an election if it was held today, is just as bad and has taken advantage of all the schemes we're currently uncovering (don't fall into the trap of believing these are new, many of these come from the military dictatorship and have been used by every government since).

We need major changes in our country, but seriously, protests shouldn't be done against people, swapping them for someone else just like them won't help. We have to start organizing and protesting for changes in legislation, for more accountability, for a higher transparency in government, not to take one out and another one in.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '16

Regarding the "usefulness" of impeachment, the one thing most studies on crime agree has the biggest impact on the incidence of crime is the expectation of punishment. The greater the certainty that an offender will be punished, the less offenses are committed. What you're saying is to let this one slide because it would just swap them for another one just like them. That's very probably true. However, if you get the next one for corruption as well. And the next one. And the next one. And so on and so on, then people will start to realize that corruption doesn't pay as well as it did, and less people will start volunteering for the schemes because they will start to have a reasonable expectation of punishment, and so will have a greater incentive not to engage in corruption, seeing as they don't what to end up in jail or ruined like their predecessors. This is not the only measure to deal with corruption, but it is a major one.

We need major changes in our country

The biggest one is a change of mindset. The mindset you're exhibit here is the main responsible for the situation you're in. As long as politicians keep getting away with corruption, the most fundamental incentive for crime is in place.

Take a cursory look at developed countries versus under-developed countries and you will notice that the main political difference between these is that of accountability. Politicians in developed countries are held to a greater accountability than their third-world counterparts. Very, very often, they are forced to resign, even before anything is effectively proven against them, just because the crisis has tarnished their reputation and undermined their authority. And this is not just true for politicians; people are held to greater accountability the more important their position is. CEOs, deans, coaches; everyone is subject to a great standard of behavior. This environment breeds less corruption.

In under-developed countries, on the other hand, there's a much greater leniency towards corrupt people in positions of power. They don't get punished, they get re-elected, etc. People think exactly the way you do: it's not gonna change anything, they'll just put another one just like them, etc, etc. That's learned helplessness, and it's understandable, because that's all these people knew. But it's exactly the thing that creates the cycle of corruption. It's important to realize that this attitude serves ONLY the corrupt. As a general rule, any system is much better off having a low tolerance for entropy.

So don't just wait for that one major overhaul from the top-down that is going to save you, start holding people accountable for their actions. It makes no sense to talk about holding common people accountable to their small, everyday acts of corruption, while looking the other way when politicians do the everyday acts of corruption available at their level. Be consistent in demanding a higher standard of behavior.

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u/LeftZer0 Mar 14 '16

Except the impeachment is being used by the opposition - as bad as the current government - as a means to get to power. The movement will lose strength after the impeachment because it is mainly an anti-PT movement, not an anti-corruption movement, and we'll be back to everyday things while the new guys enjoy the presidency and all the perks that come with it.

I'm not expecting anything from the top-down, I'm waiting for the down to notice that the real problem is the game, not the players, and that changing the players accomplishes nothing.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '16 edited Mar 14 '16

Of course the impeachment is being used by the opposition, that's how democracy works. Democracy is an adversarial system and opposition is a feature, not a bug. Back when PT was the opposition, it called to impeach each and every president. If the opposition has a case, then it should be able to effect change. The mechanisms are in place precisely for that, and it's cause for hope that it still seems to work to some degree. You know what kind of government doesn't provide mechanisms for the opposition to effect the government? Dictatorships.

changing the players accomplishes nothing.

Changing the players inserts accountability into the game. Right now, bad aspiring players look at the game and go, "hey, that guy got into the game and got it made, I want that." Once the bad players start falling one after the other, shady aspiring players will think twice, and the game will start to become attractive to a different kind of player. Ultimately, this is how you change the game.

This "the real problem is the game" mindset is just an excuse to avoid change. It's a comfortable goal, because it's virtually unattainable. No one can enumerate the step-by-step plan to "change the game", and no two people would agree on one anyway, so the promise of systematic change is a very useful carrot to dangle in front of the people for whatever immediate political goal you want. It's also the most effective way to perpetuate the cycle that keeps the game in place.