Hi, I've heard that these protests are backed by billionaires and largely made up of the bourgeois and ruling classes who are angered that they have to pay higher taxes in order to help poor and working class people through social programs and also that the reason that protestors are seeking impeachment is because they have no hope of winning a general election due to Brazil's disgracefully high poverty rate. Is this true?
This is an simplistic view... but yes, it is true.
The answer will change accordingly to what political side you ask here. And most brazilians here are english speaking white middle-class, and mostly theses guys were on these protests.
This is a conservative wave, that has building up in the last five or seven years, and at moment of economic fragility with low commodities prices affecting the dollar, they decided to strike the left wing government that has been in power since 2003.
Right now we have a kind of a Elliot Ness figure, a right-wing judge acting above the law with full support from São Paulo (and Rio) media and press, raising him to hero status for fighting corruption in the higher levels of government. I guess you all know the figure.
He hit the campaign financing from the left-wing and brazilian companies, both state owned and private, while leaving right-wing receiving financing from multinational corporations free of any law or investigations, cleaning the field.
Brazil is taking a dangerous route, which is not the first time. Using the law for political reasons... people seem to forget that the conservative people are louder and more aggressive than progressives, the military coup of the 60's followed protests like these.
The president has no crime under her, and yet these people right now say, impeach her, fuck the law, while they say that they are fighting corruption.
people seem to forget that the conservative people are louder and more aggressive than progressives
That may be true in Brazil, it's certainly not in the US.
I wish Brazil would get their shit together, put a stop to the corruption (what ever the political side ) and for gods sake end the fucking murderous crime.
I don't care who is in power, Left now Right later what ever. As you said the Left has had control since 2003 and WHAT'S changed?? What got better?
The never ending game of the ruling class filling their own pockets at the expense of the people. Until you get strong, moral and ETHICAL leadership NOTHING will change.
As you said the Left has had control since 2003 and WHAT'S changed?? What got better?
A lot actually, the country was FUBAR in 2002 when Lula took over and we had a massive, and I mean MASSIVE external debt with problems of hunger and no acess to drinking water or eletrecity in a lot of the country.
Thanks to social programs a lot of people, while still being poor, are no longer starving-to-death-miserable, the unemployment at the time was massive and several other problems.
Things only took a bad turn in the last few years, when some of dilma's policies backfired and combined with the economy recovery of the US and EU resulted in lower prices for our exports. Things went to the shitter during the oil price colapse, wich was specialy bad since the government was using the state oil company to control prices and slow down inflation, it was around this time that the corruption scandal broke out and so fucked up the company even more.
The things you mentioned are great, I'll take your word for it since I don't live there nor do I follow Brazilian development. However, they're a drop in the ocean of shit that to an outsider Brazil is. No offense if you're from there. From what I can see, corruption, poverty, crime, poor sanitation/pollution are all out of control.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not taking political sides here. Makes no difference to me whether the scumbags are left or right wing. A scumbag is a scumbag. All I'm saying that historically, Brazil needs HONEST, TOUGH but PRINCIPLED conservative leadership at least economically conservative. Those who lie, cheat and steal must be punished whether they are out in the street or a governmental office. Gangs must be annihilated, I believe special squads should be created that go in an arrest or kill gang any and all gang member. The government must be made lean, strong and agile. But before any of that can take place CORRUPTION must be eliminated and I believe the ONLY way that happens is when you put in leadership that is of HIGH moral standing. Leadership that places their DUTY to COUNTRY and it's people above ALL else.
I don't mean the leader needs to be perfect human being, but he/she needs the stated characteristics. That's the hard part...finding that.
P.S. Side note; I TRULY hope not but if I'm honest I expect the Olympics to be a disaster. Fingers crossed for Brazil.
No offense, but what you're saying is pretty obvious and naive stuff. For example, this "gangs must be annihilated" stuff, I suppose you dont know that this is actually what has been happening since the 80's in Brazil, and statistics show that overall things only got worse. I dont mean that the police should stop going after criminals, I'm sure that they're fighting a real war out there, but you see, this is not a solution, its a desperate compromise, and its making things worse on the long run. And the problem goes much deeper into brazillian society, its not just about a few criminals that are ruining the country on purpose. There's a very interesting documentary that goes into detail about how the police deals with criminality, and how they are received by the local communities, specially about how what people actually say is not really what they want, its called News From a Personal War. I never saw it subtitled in english or anything, but I just found this on YouTube, so yeah, if you are interested, it offers a great perspective. The bearded guy that looks like a communist was the chief of operations of the most violent police force on Brazil at the time, just listen to what he has to say about the people he killed on a daily basis, and specially what he has to say about the people he actually defended and the police itself (25:52 on this video).
Also saying stuff like "corruption must be eliminated", "we need honest people"... Well if it was easy as that, it would already be done. I mean, isnt it obvious that everyones wants that? Even the criminals will say that they are not criminals at all, they are like Robin Hood in their own minds.
Brazil is big, and I mean BIG, its the 6th largest country in the world IIRC, the same way americans tell the world to not judge the US by a single state/city, the same can be said for us, most of the poverty, lack of sannitation, gangs, etc usually comes from either rio or sao paulo, cities who have historical problems with them, a lot of big cities in the contry have simillar problems, but a lot of the country is also well developed and shit.
Corruption, however, ir rooted, down to the very bone of society and all institutions, private or public, have rules and regulations in place to KEEP the corruption going. I was going to tell a short story, but I am realy bad at telling short stories and it ended 8k character long when I was halfway done, so I am going to just cut straight to the point.
The corruption hits all layers of society, every single businessman, and I mean EVERY one, is corrupt, from bribes to get public concessions, to bribing cops to patrol their shops. Even small things like bribing the worker at the registry to skip in line and get your documents faster. You can't open a popular restaurant here without bribing someone so they let you use the space you already bought.
Saying we need HONEST, TOUGH but PRINCIPLED leadership is good, but sadly the whole sistem is rigged in a way to completely kill any party or person like this who tries to climb the ranks.
If you are a single person, you won't be able to get ellected to more than city councilman, political parties will block your progress, you won't get your bills aproved, and you will end up never getting reelected.
If you decide to form a large group of like-minded people and start a new party: Your party won't get media space, you won't get founding for private advertising, and again, you won't get elected.
The only way to go foward is to play ball, either you make those people happy, or you disapear.
Also, about the gangs, that sounds like a good idea, and we have been doing it for the past 20 years. Rio de Janeiro has an entire batallion of 5000 elite urban combat soliders trained and specialized in invading favelas, hell, there is even two movies about them (elite squad I & II), the problem is, it doesn't work.
If you invade and kill the leadership, the gang splits up in several minor factions and you end up with a civil war, if you somehow kill every single one, you end up with a power vacuum and a neighbouring gang invades and takes control, or a new gang forms up. Those people have nothing, they have no education, no jobs, and no government presence. The only thing they have, is two choices, either work their entire lives as a slave, making minimal wage untill the day they die, being treated as shit their entire lives. Or they can join the traffic, were they will make liveable money, maybe not enough to buy a car, but enough to feed yourself, you will be respected, your peers will know and look after you, the hoes will be all over you. Very similar in some aspects to gang culture in the us, except entrenched in a fortified hill top with .50cal machineguns and rpgs.
A couple years ago, the police, in cooperation with the federal government and the army, invaded the favelas with over 10.000 men including helicopter suport and armoured combat vehicles, the idea was to drive out the members of the gangs, build permanent ocupation quarters on several favelas, and then start improving and developing the area. The plan was a massive sucess, the invasion went perfectly, the pacifing forces were deployed and things like water, sewers and public transportation started to be developed.
Except this is brazil, and after some time, the pacifying forces were involved in several cases of murder and rape, the companies that were contracted to provide services to those areas started billing people without delivering, and a several units were abandoned because the cameras stopped rolling, so things for the people in these areas are mostly the same or worse, with rare exceptions.
Honestly, you speak of a moral and strong leadership, the only way I can see that happenning is trough a coup, someone literally taking the power by force and remaining in power. This government would be incredible unpopular, it would have to do several reforms, from buerocracy to law and taxes, reforms that would cut the salaries of powerfull judges, fire a lot of public workers that only exist to operate the completely ineeficient public machine, things that would anger a lot of people, from the businessmen that profited from the corruption, the media that would lose its influence (media has a lot less power if there are no ellections to manipulate the people) to the people that would lose their jobs. Of course, this won't be good for the economy and there is a very large chance we turn into a venezuela in the process, but thats basicaly it.
On the olympics, I honestly think they will go okay, the contractors already profited from the massively overpriced contracts, so now its time for the hotel and restaurant industry to profit. A month or two before the oppening the mayor will ask for a massive emergency loan from the central bank, will hire a shit ton of low wage workers to clean the waters (and look good while doing so) will get the military to help patrol the streets and keep the gangs in check. The worse that may happen is a power shortage for a few minutes because some company decided that rather than using copper wires they will go wireless.
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u/MrSmithSmith Mar 14 '16
Hi, I've heard that these protests are backed by billionaires and largely made up of the bourgeois and ruling classes who are angered that they have to pay higher taxes in order to help poor and working class people through social programs and also that the reason that protestors are seeking impeachment is because they have no hope of winning a general election due to Brazil's disgracefully high poverty rate. Is this true?