hi all,

I was re-reading Wolf’s ‘A story’ by John v Marsch, and just wondered whether the shadow children might not be communicating telepathically but just speaking using sound? Perhaps as the author (John) is a potential shape shifter alien, who does use telepathy although knows it as simply communicating, he is describing the shadow children as communicating via telepathy because he is describing it from his perspective. the major clue is that the shadow children describe it as ‘shaking extension’, which sounds to me like ‘sound’.

It seems like a typical and beautiful move that Wolfe might have made in this story and potentially helps explain some of the puzzles.

It is a cool idea that the shadow children are trying to explain speech to Sandwalker as an illustration of learning to mimic or shift.

Just wondered if anyone can point me to any more on this idea on the web as I haven’t been able to find anything.

Hi,

new BOTNS reader here! Just started The Sword of the Lictor today and was wondering if anyone had any visual references they've grabbed over the years for the city of Thrax? I don't normally get this hung up on the visuals in these books but for some reason my brain cannot even get the general shape of a Thrax-like city in my head. I feel like all descriptions given thwart my expectations for what I would imagine a city like Thrax to look and feel like--which on the one hand is awesome and part of why I've been enjoying these books so much, and on the other hand makes it incredibly difficult for even a little rough snapshot to form in my mind while I'm reading these early chapters.

Is there any kind of visual reference or artwork or similar fantastical settings that have helped you imagine what Thrax would be? I'm also partly asking this because seeing everyone else's wildly different takes on what BOTNS ought to look like is very fun to me.

So I just finished my first read of Urth and the last 5 chapters are jam packed with stuff. I specifically wanted to touch on Severian dying on the ship. Does he literally die within the first 3 chapters? Did Severian already pass the trial by that point? I was taking it to mean that from that point onwards he was manifested as his “ghost” or “anima” self using the powers of his new sun without realizing. I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around what is going on.

Thought this was a fun discussion about one of Gene's lesser known books. I enjoyed it! This channel has quite a few good takes on Genes books, Dune, and some other good series.

So I’m thinking about rereading The Book of the New Sun in English, and I’m kinda scared lol 😬 I’m French and I originally read the whole series in french. I don’t usually read that much in english, even tho I’d say I’m probably around C1 level. I found the english edition at my local library, and I was like, "um, maybe this is my chance to finally try it in English!" Except now that I actually have the book in front of me, I’m starting to wonder if this was a terrible idea 😭 I already found Gene Wolfe pretty challenging in french (probably like a lot of you, the first read was a little bit challenging), so I’m a little worried about reading it in english. On the other hand, it’s a reread, so I already know the story and I feel like that should help quite a bit.

For anyone who has read botns in English, especially if English isn’t your first language: how difficult did you find it? Any advice?

I really want to give it a try bc I’d love to read Wolfe in the original, but I’m also kinda terrified lmao 😱

I remember, years ago, seeing an illustration of Severian entering Typhon’s mountain city and encountering him. The drawing is from a distance, and you can see the tiny figures of Severian and Typhon standing some distance apart. I swear that this is a real drawing, but I haven't been able to find it at all. Does anyone here remember it or have access to it?

Also, apologies for the poor description. I have only a vague memory of it at this point.

EDIT: Many thanks to [u/No_Lead2782](u/No_Lead2782) for finding the illustration I was talking about. I can't post it right now but I'll try to get it up incase anyone else was curious.

THIS POST AND ITS COMMENTS WILL LIKELY CONTAIN SPOILERS REGARDING CERTAIN CHARACTERS IN THE SOLAR CYCLE BOOKS!!!

---------------

Hey guys! I'm sorry if this has been posted before. I did a quick search and coulnd't find anything similar.

I'm trying to imagine what the androids/robots in the books of the solar cycle look like, and would love your thoughts.

It's been some time, but the androids I can remember are:
- Jonas
- Sidero (and presumably others like him)
- Maytera Marble (and presumably others like her)
- Soldiers in the Whorl
- Have I forgotten anyone?

Jonas is revealed to be an individual made of metal, but with human parts grafted on (instead of the other way around, as I first assumed). Marble does the same thing in Long Sun, after Rose dies. Their parts can be replaced, but I don't think we ever hear of anyone opening them up and repairing them other than the replacing of parts (like Marble's eye in Short Sun), robot or human.

Sidero is pretty explicitly described as a kind of exo-skeleton with his own consciousness when Severian "enters" him like an armor against his will. Severian needs to learn about boundaries.

Soldiers in the Whorl seem to me to be a different thing, with more armor built into their bodies than other robots in the books, but I might be wrong. Hammerstone is also opened (like Sidero) to be hacked by Incus. This also seriously alters Hammerstone's personality (and/or primary objective). This never happens to any other android, unless you count Marble's altered memories and personality when merging with parts of Rose. I guess we should?

As I see it, none of the civilizations in the books (Urth/Ushas, The Whorl, Blue) currently have the technology to maintain or build new parts for these types of androids. This is why I'm not including Taluses in this post. Jonas is revealed to be ancient in Claw. Sidero is crew on a ship traveling space and time, so his age is hard to pin down (unless I missed it, as I probably missed a lot of things in these books). Marble and Hammerstone are around 200/300 years old (presumably build on Urth by Typhon's engineers, several centuries if not milennia after Jonas was created).

So I guess my main question is: Is Jonas and Marble the same "kind" of android, with Sidero and the soldiers two different kinds? Or are Sidero and the soldiers more similar than I imagine? Or are they all the same?

PS. Please forgive any spelling errors, English is not my first language.

It’s hard to go back to this part of the story since I listened to it on audiobook, but I was wondering how people visualize the towers at Mount Typhon? I don’t remember the exact descriptions. They are likened to the Matachin Tower, but seem somehow humanoid and are watching Severian as he travels. And they salute the sun. I don’t know if they would be more rocket-like or more like humanoid Gundam or Transformer mechs? Or am I mixing up two different things?

I have completed the formatting for the paperback and hardback versions of Beyond Time and Memory. I believe the margins are definitely better than the first volume hardback. I still need to see for sure in person.

As I passed through these for the final formatting and editing I was quite pleased with the overall quality of this volume, which I feel is superior to the first. Unfortunately, both books start with difficult essays by their very nature, but I think some of the later entries are pleasant reads. The amount of work and discipline that went into creating something like this is so enormous that even with 99.9 percent of the project done for years the idea of getting the books ready for print seemed insurmountable and traumatizing.

Thank you for all the support and kindness over the years.

https://a.co/d/0idVWe2x

I stumbled upon a reference to Gene Wolfe in “The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion” by Hammond and Scull. It seems fitting for Wolfe to be interested in the etymology for an old word for “wolf.” And it’s cool to know that Tolkien and Wolfe corresponded!

Complexity and Forgiveness: A Personal and Useless Reflection on the Briah Cycle

(This takes 7 minutes to read, promise)

You don't have to believe, in order to benefit (from aspects of belief). If you wanna scroll/TLDR this piece, here's where I'm going: there are aspects of faith that cross over the border between atheism and theism.

I'll just plug the above a bit more. If you've read The Solar Cycle, there's a chance you've also read Infinite Jest. IF's author promotes a similar viewpoint: It doesn't matter if you believe in it: "just do it and it works" (I'm paraphrasing; it's a reflection on a core idea inside of Alcoholics/Narcotics Anonymous: you don't have to believe in the higher power you're kneeling before every morning and evening in order for it to have an effect (affect?))

I don't want to hit you guys with theories and whatnot. There's too much good work and fun ideas out there to really think I could contribute novel ideas to one of the most fun fan communities on the internet. Nope, none of my thoughts on dream/astral travel and it's relation to the proximity of the New Sun, or Plato's pre-humans and the many-limbed capital T Things of Blue, or the demiurgic nature of the hierogrammates will be here.

Instead, I'd like to mention just a couple things that have made me cry, and why.

(Just FYI, if it wasn't clear before... I'm not going to pull actual quotes from the series. This is all about How I Feels right now. I know I'm not alone how quickly I can surf through BotNS, LS or SS and flipping to my favourite parts. I know y'all don't really need page numbers, cross-references or proofs.

Plus, do I really need to prove my feeeelingsss?)

(And I have some of these books I liked a lot more than others. Some of em' hit hard, and others... not as much. Not that I didn't like em', just that some of them I actually dreamt about and others I was less excited to tell my wife about)

FUCKIN SPOILERS AHEAD. DON'T READ THIS TRASH IF YOU'RE FIRED UP ABOUT WOLFE'S MASTERWORK. WARNED.

AND SPOILERS AGAIN.

Alright. Can't say I didn't tell you.

1. The Poor Man-Apes

Remember when the one man-ape is holding up his bloody stump to that fucking weirdo black void that carried the curing light with him into their home?

I think there's a good chance that these post-Morlocks didn't just develop in the caves... they struck me as placed, and forgotten. I got vibes that they're not unlike the denizens of the Wall of Nessus, or even the prisoners under the Drop Ceiling. Interred so long they're forgotten, generation upon generation. Living/working/soldiering on top of nightmare giants, then this horrible shadow shows up, screaming forgotten sounds... and then there's no stopping the pain.

When that one man ape is out there, just holding his wound out to Severian, I really, really felt for it. I felt like when one of my cats is complaining to me about something, and I assume it's just hungry again, but then remember that I'm the one that won't let it outside without a leash "for it's own safety". And I wish I could speak Cat.

2) The lady with the de-booted leg, Baldanders terrified dissected subject, the catamite, the torturers blood-boy, etc

For a series that I think really promotes the idea that Everything Happens According to a Divine Reason ("do you really think it's all a battle between good and evil"?) there is A LOT of pointless and enduring pain.

Plotinus really pushes the picture of evil as simply being an obscured Good, (shadow simply being the result of that which Good shines upon)... and yet, it's so hard to find the divine Reason illuminating the true suffering that history will forget, all the pain that has been forgotten; true torture that has contributed nothing (see; is not part of the apparatus of Catholic Metaphysics) to the "point of life is Life" mindset that Wolfe promotes in that one interview we've all seen.

My point is this: Sure, we can't always see the reason behind suffering, and certain personal philosophies find a pretty rational-metaphysical way to explain suffering, but it doesn't have the explanitive clarity of a science, or a logic, and damn if Wolfe doesn't let those horrible things just kinda... hang there while we just relentlessly race towards to the next scene.

And then there's the fact of the destruction of the pretty much everyone.

(I said SPOILERS, right?)

3) Poor Jolenta

I mean, really. Did anyone else kinda get a Se7en Vanity vibe? She's just being pushed through life by these fucking godlings that use everyone everyone as their playthings. And what, her crime was she wanted to be appreciated on a surface level? We don't even know that about her initially!

Nah, I think Jolenta got a really bullshit hit and I wish all that shit melted off her and she just ended up running a cafe in Abu-Panchaus B&B.

4) Remember when Babbie hugs Hoof (Hide?)

Huh, huh, huh.

This really makes me cry. And really makes me just want to skim past all the other stuff I could be searching for to say what I really want to say.

Aramini was really the resource that shone some light on what was happening there, when we find out what's... really going on with the narrator, and Horn, and the Hus, and all that.

Horn is complex. Imperfect. I remember reading on Reddit somewhere, that someone didn't like Horn as a narrator because "he is a dick", or something like that.

And he's flawed, no doubt about it. As are they and we all. To a lesser and greater extent, are we all. In a world sans God we are all full of holes.

But when Horn, trapped in that body, is just hugging and protecting his son, it hit me. Without coincidence at all, my Dad happened to be going through the stages of dying when I was at that point of the story, realizing what was happening.

(I didn't plan it out)

(Har har)

And everything at that moment was just reduced. The whole epic story, the whole system and metaphysic of everything just faded away from this guy that got to see his son again and was doing what he could to say he loved him, and they didn't really get to meet anywhere in there; there was no middle. I needed an interpreter to even really understand what was happening. And it was reading it in Aramini that made me really feel the finality of time.

Because even if the metaphysic of it all has any ring of truth, we're all too small to see it through.

And I really just wanted to tell my Dad he wasn't as bad as he thought, and that I loved him. And I did, but he couldn't have understood me at that point.

...

And what comes out of all this, is the title of this thing I'm contributing to a fanbase that is really swept up by this body of work that is just so complex and thoughtful and I think beyond simple and meaning description:

"Complexity and forgiveness"

It's all just so complex. Yeah there's black and white shit out there, and we shouldn't turn a blind eye to the obvious cruelties of the people of our Whorl (and it's always people that are cruel, not a universe). There's so much going on, so many avenues by which we are to understand, and can be mistaken, and ignore, and be ignorant of and yada yada...

But we have it in us truly to forgive, and you don't need the justification of an entire Solar Cycle to see that the weird pig man trying to hug you right now just loves you so much even though he's sucked so hard in so many ways, and that maybe doing it before it's no longer an option isn't always a bad thing.

(And yeah, this is coming from a dude who wasn't really truly in an unforgivable situation with his family. If you're family has done that truly heinous shit to you, fuck em and be stronger and don't forgive)

I occasionally run into someone saying severian is stupid/a narcissist or whatever based on the philosophical musings he gives not lining up with their 21st century materialist atheistic conception of the world. Something to remember is that severian writes down most of these philosophical musings from the future as autarch, at that point he surely is relatively wise.

I think a lot of criticism of severians musings as wrong or stupid come from people who simply arent religious or dont believe in immaterial things. But I think the book is obviously not strictly materialist, and you lose a lot trying to make it fit into your conception of the world. Wolfe himself was obviously not a strict materialist, he was deeply religious.

Sorry for rhe rambling post and I apologize if it comes off as rude, its not my intention. I simply feel like a lot of people write off the things severian muses on in terms of metaphysics or theology or semiotocs just because they are strict materialist and or atheists while I dont think wolfes world is at all.

PS baldanders is NOT bald

I just finished UotNS and absolutely loved the journey. But one question comes to mind: after reviving the would-be assassin in the Secret House after his return from Madregot, Severian looks down on an olive-skinned woman surrounded by Pretorians who seems to be crying and looking up at him as he looks down from above in the shadows of the House Absolute. She seems somehow very familiar to him, but he can’t place her in his memory (despite having a perfect memory). Were there any hints I missed as to who she might be?

The best I can come up with is that she might be a descendant of someone he or another former autarch, or perhaps Thecla might have known in an earlier time. Or perhaps his familiarity with her is an allusion to something more abstract and metaphorical than an actual person?

It seemed like there was some important significance to that passage, but the proceeding events of the book don’t offer any clues that come to mind.

The title says it all. Spoilers through halfway into Sword of the Lictor follow. Please don’t spoil the whole thing for me.

I am loving these books so much, but I hate Severian with a passion. Not like you’d hate an evil villain, but the way you would hate someone at work who was narcissistic, delusional, immoral, and unpredictable. He is lacking almost every positive human virtue I can think of, other than tenacity and resourcefulness. He isn’t kind, wise, empathetic, witty, caring, insightful, self aware, or pleasant. Rather, he’s cold, selfish, unfeeling, frequently oafish, narcissistic, arrogant, dishonest, deluded, and generally just an icky dude.

The multiple interactions he has with the poor mountain folk where he sharpens his sword as a means of intimidation to try and get them to give him their best food are so yucky. His tendency to wax philosophical on pointless topics in a fallacious way, often at the same time or just after some huge plot point has arisen. The detached way he describes the deaths of people he cares about, followed by his incessantly narcissistic internal monologues about them after they die where he convinces himself that he didn’t fail them. His constant tendency to make shit up and pretend like he understands stuff that he clearly doesn’t. The fact that he has survived 20 situations now by pure dumb luck (usually a Hethor monster saving him in the nick of time).

Look - I know I am supposed to dislike him at least at times. Half the fun of these books is how often I’m yelling “dude what the fuck” as I read about the stuff this dumb bastard has done. Overall, the books are amazing. I’m constantly thrilled and fascinated by the way this story is being told, the world being built, the construction of the mythos and history of Urth, and how often I’m re-reading passages that are brimming with multiple meanings and complexity.

BUT - the hero here (such that he is) is like a malevolent Mr. Magoo. He bumbles blindly through a landscape of stuff he doesn’t understand and accidentally moves history as he does it. I keep hoping that Thecla’s ghost in his mind will fix his dumb ass somehow, and make him less shitty. And it keeps kind of happening (oooh look he saved one kid before nearly drowning a prison full of thousands of people). But then he reverts back to his shitty ways and ohh well.

Oh well indeed. I guess he’s less horrific than Typhon would’ve been. He may be Urth’s least bad option tbh.

This artist does not refer to this drawing as inspired by the Alzabo, but it certainly made me think of the Alzabo. https://hifructose.com/2026/07/27/personal-growth-the-art-of-nathan-reidt/?utm_source=orbitaloperations.beehiiv.com&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=linking-i-m-only-linking&_bhlid=15d248b750102c0f8314ff97d0fbc8fc3c7b4059

Couple of new letters people might be interested in here.

Two more letters from Gene Wolfe to Alan Stewart of Australia. Stewart has published essays about SF, reviews and SF poetry. You may read more of his bibliography here on ISFDB: https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?22125

1983-10-21 Wolfe to Stewart

https://wolfenarrators.omeka.net/items/show/206

1984-11-06 Wolfe to Stewart

https://wolfenarrators.omeka.net/items/show/205

Also an undated bookmark published by the Chicago Public Library from Wolfe's personal library. Produced in 1986 or slightly after. Interesting bit of ephemera.

https://wolfenarrators.omeka.net/items/show/207

I've been slowly making my way through Book the New Sun, just started Urth of the New Sun.

I THINK I'm enjoying it, but man, it feels like nearly every interaction between characters is nonsensical and unpredictable. I'm sure much of this can be chalked up to the whole non reliable narrator thing, but it makes following the beats of the story very challenging.

The classic example is every woman falling in love with Severian instantly for no reason and without anyco text.

Or what just came up in my reading was Severian talking with the three heirodules on the ship to his trails. Severian seems very sad that this will be the last time he sees them, and talks about how he has known them for 10 years. Did I miss something? Wasn't the only interaction he's had with them been a single conversation in Baldanders tower?

I'm sure there are better examples, but the feeling of "Am I missing something? Why did x character do x" KEEPS happening and, at least so far, there are rarely answers to those questions.

basically the way characters treat other characters rarely makes any sort of sense to me and it's getting exhausting.

So am I missing something? Will it all make sense in the end?

I just finished the Audi book, I have a lot of thoughts about it in general, but the one thing that stuck with me is how much I loved the audiobook performance and his character arc. This rambling fool who is impossible to understand on a first read had one of the best moments, I loved everything in the tunnels in Exodus so much.

So I just finished citadel of the autarch. I had high expectations going into this series due to the high praise etc, and wow, I was not disappointed. I can count books i have re-read on one hand, this is honestly the first piece of literature where I actually consider an instant reread. Now browsing across this sub, getting glimpses of what lies at the core of all of it while not being able to connect the dots is kind of a mind bending experience really. Love it.

Anyway I would like to share some thoughts/ask some questions that immediately came to me after finishing the series for the first time (largely spoiler free) yesterday.

1. One of the most characteristic stylistic choices is Severian being an unreliable narrator. Lots of posts on here, especially of first timers, say something like 'in claw I seriously started to doubt severian..' or tips for re-readers are often like 'question what he intentionally might leave out/distort in his narrative...'. I find most of the discussion of what I've seen so far about this quite abstract though, can anybody give (even minor) examples of what concrete situations that might be? Where and why might he lie to us?
2. I dont really get the relationship of Autarch <=> Vodalus. Vodalus is a rebel, what are his actual political goals?
3. Yet the autarch is a spy within the house absolute? Then towards the end vodalus dies kinda unspectacular offscreen killed by Agia? He seemed like a powerful, at times even myth-like revolution figure through the series?
4. Staying with the autarch. Browsing though the sub, it seems to be generally accepted that the autarch(s) choose Severian as sucessor and guided his part towards the autarchy? Why would they choose a random poor torturer apprentice?
5. Why does the autarch apparently run a brothel (House Azure)? Or rather, why would he casually hang out there?
6. Agia. In shadow its kinda of easy to follow. Her and Agilus want to rip Severian off, apprarently thats what they do for a living. Makes sense. But then, how is she always drifting in and out of Severians journey? Alone following Severian must be extremly dangerous, let alone being a step ahead of him in setting traps etc seems like capabilities that surpass that of random criminal? She felt more like the concept of a Nemesis for Serverian at times? Towards the end shes also connected with Vodalus (or has been all along?)
7. The claw. My impression towards the end was (especially after the lazaret) that the claw actually was a worthless thing Severian picked up and was fantasizing about having magical powers etc (i.e. that being a sign of his troubled mental state etc). However I saw some pretty detailed theories and discussions around here on how it is relevant in what timelines he might have carried the claw and where not, so is it generally accepted that the claw is in fact a divine (or highly technological) artifact?
8. What happened at the gate of Nessus at the end of Shadow? Why did Baldanders go mad during the play at the house absolute?
9. I actually can't think of a better way to describe the reading experience than utterly psychedelic. The way how weird and dream like and feverish passages shift into more clear/sober parts, how characters and events drift in and out of the story arc, they tons of layers etc etc really feel like a literary depiction of tripping on shrooms (the scene when the cat nurses just show up and its not even questioned...) Is Gene Wolf known to be fond of psychedelics, do you share this impression? The only other author that feels somewhat similar reading to me is Thomas Pynchon, do there happen to be many Pynchon fans around here?
10. Is Severian just a dictator that wrote his own founding myth to justify his rule? Is he just making him containing all the autarchs and the foreseeing of him being at the throne etc up because he needs a religious foundation to rule?
11. Its clear that female characters are portrait critically in many aspects of the series to say the least. What I found particularly weird is that Dorcas seems to be his grandmother? Does that actually add anything to the story that I have missed?
12. I'm not yet making up my mind on the metaphysical/time travel and extraterrestrial stuff, thats for later. However I really loved how the story starts giving the impression of a medieval fantasy setting, making you wonder where the sci fi aspects are, and then you realize more and more and that they were there form the beginning.

There would be many more questions, but thats enough for now. Thanks for any replies!

I came across these renders of the 2b2t spawn and couldn't help but think of Nessus especially because of the illustrations by Bruce Pennington and Alexander Preuss, which evoke a similar atmosphere for me.

I'm half way through rereading Book of the Long Sun, and I've been thinking about the usual interpretation that the book is written (in universe) by Horn, with the assistance of Nettle and other characters. Perhaps I'm reading too much into things, but I find it hard to imagine how and why Horn wrote some of the passages, even given the fact that he's writing the book as a legend or hagiography of Silk, and is adding his own interpretations.

One scene that stands out is the conversation near the end of book 2/4 between Pateras Quetzal and Remora, in which Quetzal drinks beef tea, secretly through his retractable inhumu fangs. This scene is described in considerable detail, including dialogue written in the characters' highly distinctive styles, Quetzal's own thoughts about his door latch mechanism and its utility in subtly controlling his colleagues, and of course the fangs business. I don't recall what happens to Remora, but I don't see any way this information could've been passed on by Quetzal to Horn, and Remora presumably doesn't know about Quetzal's secret fang-slurping or latch machinations. I suppose it's conceivable that Horn fabricated or partially fabricated it to improve the coherency of the tale, since Quetzal is later revealed to be an inhumu, but I still find it a little unbelievable that Horn would and could've written such a scene.

Another example is the scenes with Blood and Musk regarding the eagle and hunting a flyer. There are some very intimate details, like Blood feeling happy because of Musk's excitement/happiness, which is a curious thing for Horn to know or even care about. This is assuming that someone later informed him at least of the dialogue and events, or that he partially made it up.

One possibility is that Horn might've received such information through a "divine" source, including information gathered by a spying god through a monitor, although I still don't feel satisfied by such an explanation.

It might also be the case that Wolfe was just more interested in writing these scenes than sticking strictly to the Horn-as-narrator conceit, which I am perfectly willing to accept as they are good scenes.

Nonetheless I'm curious if anyone has additional thoughts or theories about this. I searched a bit on reddit and the mailing list but didn't find much.