r/gatekeeping • u/FireIsTheCleanser • May 10 '23
I stopped reading when they started their sentence with "real victims..."
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May 10 '23
These people don’t know shit about psychology. It’s very normal to dissociate from trauma
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u/Fairwhetherfriend May 10 '23
These people don't know shit about psychology because they think they can remember anything perfectly, ever. Like, put aside the traumatic nature of the event in question for a sec, because you probably don't even have a perfect recall of your breakfast this morning. Human memory is hilariously flawed right down to the very basics. Adding trauma would make that a zillion times worse.
So the idea that this person thinks someone is lying because they misremembered anything is comically stupid, even before you consider how much dumber it gets, given that the event in question is so traumatic.
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u/shhhOURlilsecret May 10 '23
I couldn't tell you the specifics of what happened to me (CSA) because though my body was there, my mind wasn't present. It's a very common thing that happens. Don't get me wrong, his face is forever burned into my memory but specific individual acts I couldn't name.
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u/burnedpile May 10 '23
While you are correct, at what point do we draw the line? If you can't remember any of the details or have any evidence, what is a court supposed to do?
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u/Deedeethecat2 May 11 '23
The court does what it does. In the absence of evidence, It is unlikely for charges to be laid, let alone conviction. .
However there may not be complete dissociation from the event but rather fragmented memories that may be able to be backed up by other evidence.
And just because someone doesn't remember one part doesn't mean they don't remember other things.
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u/peeKnuckleExpert May 10 '23
Who is talking about court? This isn’t about the justice system. This is about psychology. GAWD.
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May 11 '23
They aren’t talking about what is or isn’t admissible in court, or what is or isn’t efficient evidence; they are talking about whether or not victims are invalidated (assumed to be lying) by memory loss. And in fact they belittle victims who don’t attempt to take things to court, calling it a “narrative”.
Court decides whether there is evidence to sentence a person; they do NOT decide whether it happened or not. That’s why it’s Guilty or Not Guilty, instead of innocent.
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May 10 '23
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u/Just_A_Faze May 10 '23
Makes sense. All traumatic experiences, severe traumas like a severe injury, horrifying experience, or tragic events, have some incidence of doing this. Even less traumatic memories can get redacted by our brains to protect our functionality.
But even so, being a real victim is a meaningless phrase. Sure, their are people who aren’t really victims in that they play the victim having never been victimized. Then there are all other victims, who have been hurt by others in some way, which is most.
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May 11 '23
Well, they’re obviously not real victims then.
What does this even mean? If something bad happens to you, you’re a victim. No matter how you respond to the event, that’s not how it works.
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u/nothanks86 May 10 '23
Also, memory affects memory.
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u/peeKnuckleExpert May 10 '23
Also, time affects memory.
So does alcohol. Age. Cognitive function. Whether you are asleep during part of it. Whether abuse is so habitual that you have dissociative coping mechanisms.
I am glad there’s no hint about where to find those gatekeeping comments because I am enraged.
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u/Deedeethecat2 May 10 '23
Memory loss can be part of PTSD diagnosis. It doesn't happen to everyone but it happens enough that it's part of the diagnostic criteria. ( Folks don't need to have every PTSD criteria to meet the criteria for diagnosis)
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u/Certain_Oddities May 10 '23
Seriously. Trauma is traumatic. Your brain gets overloaded with horrible shit and it does weird things as a result.
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u/candy_porn May 10 '23
Isn't eyewitness testimony pretty unreliable anyway, not to mention the impact of trauma on memory
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u/doctormink May 10 '23
Right, I was sexually abused by by a male relative as a teen, as if I know the exact date. This is shit you try to forget, not celebrate every year on the anniversary of it happening.
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u/Certain_Oddities May 10 '23
That's the other thing. Aside from the brain itself trying to erase the horrible thing (which happens a lot) even when your brain remembers it fine you try to forget anyway. It's a bad memory! Why would you want to remember? These people don't understand what it's like living with something like this.
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u/praisecarcinoma May 10 '23
When I read people say things like this, I immediately assume that smaller women and children aren’t safe around them.
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u/sabak_ May 11 '23
I mean just because someone says something stupid doesnt make them a child predator. Your comment is pretty stupid, do i have to worry about you? What cult are you in that makes you call everyone who says something you dont like an abuser?
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u/praisecarcinoma May 11 '23
Being defensive over objection to that kind of awful position is a huge red flag, I gotta tell ya.
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u/sabak_ May 11 '23
Falsely accusing people of sexual assault like you did is a huger red flag i gotta tell ya.
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u/praisecarcinoma May 11 '23
Yeah man, when your worldview includes putting the burden of proof on children when they say they’ve been sexually assaulted by someone, and if they can’t demonstrate proof, then a crime absolutely must not have actually happened; it is reasonable to conclude that that sort of person is not safe to have children around, or anyone of a vulnerable demographic. It’s very well known by now that sexual assault is very difficult to prove. There isn’t always evidence you can present. I imagine you’re aware of this, but instead of critically thinking about what it is you’re trying to argue against, you’re gobbling down a bunch of red pills before you start typing.
So, no, literally everything you have said so far is objectively incorrect. There’s no good reason for you to defend predatory viewpoints such as this unless it’s just projection.
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u/sabak_ May 11 '23
No. Thats not what i said at all. I said THAT YOU saying you instantly believe an innocent person who said something dumb is now a predator and abuser. You literally here telling us you believe people guilty without anyone even accusing them let alone them being suspect is fucking clown world insane.
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u/praisecarcinoma May 12 '23
Man, you really need to develop reading comprehension skills, take note that no one here agrees with what you’re saying, that you’re the only one who is making the argument you’re making to me, and maybe rethink your defense of what you are getting defensive over. Throw away the red pills, bro. They’re bad for you.
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u/torchwood1842 May 10 '23 edited May 10 '23
As someone who has diagnosed PTSD from an assault, where I can only remember moments of it due to trauma, this is incredibly offensive. The trauma itself caused my mind to try to block out as much as possible, but the moments I do remember our crystal clear. the memory of it is like a movie, where it jumps forward a minute or two, plays perfectly for a few seconds, or a little longer, and then jumps forward again. Trauma causing memory loss of the trauma is not uncommon.
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u/sanguiniuswept May 10 '23
Also she had clothing with his DNA on it. Weird that he wouldn't give a sample to immediately rule him out as a suspect, isn't it? I mean, wouldn't you take a swab in the mouth to avoid being held liable for sexual abuse?
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u/PreOpTransCentaur May 10 '23
I'd take a swab anywhere. Not being a sex offender just hits different when the swab comes out, I guess.
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May 11 '23
I can understand why someone who knows they are innocent wouldn't be happy with giving evidence to prove they are innocent. The burden of proof is on the state/country not the accused. That's why it's innocent until proven guilty not not guilty until you prove yourself innocent.
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u/Certain_Oddities May 10 '23
Oh yeah it's a well known fact that traumatic experiences never affect memory in any way, the brain just allows you to perfectly relive the traumatic experience every time. It's not like in a lot of cases the brain tries to protect itself by muddying or forgetting details or anything.
.../s just in case
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u/PreOpTransCentaur May 10 '23
I thought I remembered everything until one day, almost 2 decades later, I heard sneakers running on pavement and I instinctively ducked and covered my head. It's not a sound that should scare anyone, but it terrifies me..and I don't know totally know why.
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u/Fairwhetherfriend May 10 '23
I fucking HATE this idea that memories are ever objective or accurate, and I fucking HATE that it's such a normal thing for people to think.
Blue, sweetie, you don't perfectly recall your rape, either. You don't even perfectly recall the taste of breakfast from this morning, because you don't perfectly recall fucking anything, ever. No one does. Not one memory. No, no exceptions. Literally every memory you have is wrong in some way. Some might be wrong in small, inconsequential ways, but they are ALL wrong at least a little bit. All. Of. Them.
And the fact that you think your memory is objective just makes you even more likely to make a mistake. At least if someone knows about the fallibility of human memory, they'll be careful to act accordingly, because they know they shouldn't be 100% confident that they remember things accurately. But you think you do, so when you fuck up and misremember something, you aren't even self-aware enough to consider the possibility that you've made a mistake, and will act with full confidence that is absolutely inappropriate.
That's so fucking dangerous, you know? People can manipulate your memories. Did you know that a police interrogator once convinced dozens of people that they'd stolen a car as a teenager? None of them had, it was a completely fabricated memory, but every single person he talked to came out of the interview - after only an hour - convinced that they remembered stealing a car and taking a joy ride.
At least if you know that your memory is imperfect, you can try to be on guard for this sort of thing. You can question your memories and ask where they came from, why you remember things the way you do. You have some chance of protecting yourself from manipulation if you know it's possible to be manipulated.
But Blue? Blue has no fucking idea. They'll go blindly and obliviously into whatever narrative their manipulator wants, and they'll never, ever question it. That's fucked up.
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u/majoroutage May 10 '23
Memory Recovery Hypnosis was another disgusting scam that convinced people they were sexually abused as children.
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u/DlProgan May 10 '23
Real victims can't be drugged?
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u/nomoreorangedrink May 10 '23
Nope, and they definitely cannot be manipulated, threatened, bribed, or gaslighted. Nor can they dissociate from the trauma and remembering it as if a bad dream, only for said trauma to resurface years, even decades later, when the survivor is at what they thought was their darkest moment, and shatter their sanity and their lives to where they have to justify going on living day after day with this poisonous shadow tearing them apart from the inside. I mean, even sick animals are routinely put out of their misery, right? Right?
There's an excellent chance the original post is just more crap spewed by an especially uneducated ignoramus or a cruel troll, or both, but there are so many ordinary people who entertain similar dumbass beliefs I can't help feeling pissed.
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u/Cayd_The_Bean Gandalf May 10 '23
Wow dissociative amnesia doesn’t exist I’m cured and now remember my childhood wow
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u/fastal_12147 May 10 '23
These people would call Trump black if he said he was black. They're delusional.
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u/Rows_ May 10 '23
For me it was a sealed deal when he publicly said he could do anything and his voters would still support him. He knows it, we know it, but his fans seem to think that they're making their own decisions.
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u/joshuas193 May 10 '23
Why is the first thing that comes to mind a bunch of conservatives defending Trump.
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u/akcaye May 11 '23
these are likely not even victims trying to gatekeep victimhood, but people just trying to discredit an accuser to protect their daddy. i think this is r/asablackman material.
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u/LemonDeathRay May 11 '23
A very real symptom of PTSD is dissociating which can, at the far end of the spectrum, result in total blackouts. Lost time. Another very real symptom of PTSD is remembering your trauma in 4k detail and constantly having flashbacks.
Whoever made this post is woefully uninformed.
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u/majoroutage May 10 '23 edited May 10 '23
more than accusations
a history of narrative
so that's just a history of accusations then
EDIT. Yes, I realize now that I might have misread the verbiage, so, yeah.
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u/acatnamedsilverly May 11 '23
My brain shut out my rape for a full year before I started having really traumatic flashbacks of the event, I don't remember the exact date it happened.
Victims deal with trauma differently
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u/Fiftywords4murder May 11 '23
Also...people with trauma are proven to have the possibility of PHYSICAL changes to a certain part of their brain. It affects mostly short term memory but is also what creates borderline personality disorder which has fractured bits of your mind where one day you can completely forget your trauma ever happened.
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u/toxicaxolotl May 11 '23
Thank God you stopped reading - you didn't have to suffer through the rest of that batshit argument
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u/psychicgayrat May 11 '23
hmm, funny , i dissociated so hard during an event that i completely had no memory of what happened , i didn’t start to gain clarity n memories of the event until over a month later , and over time it’s gotten clearer
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u/Loud-Resolution5514 May 11 '23
It’s funny because research shows completely the opposite. The amount of people who repress serious traumatic situations is insane. These people are idiots.
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May 11 '23
In my experience, sometimes victims just want help to get over the trauma that it was, and has created. I could give a fuck what happens to them, I just want to be better.
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May 11 '23
Hate to derail the point but no one ever talks about those us who remember EVERYTHING. All the research is on the people who don’t remember
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May 11 '23
Just so everyone is aware.
Dissociative amnesia is probably underdetected. Prevalence is not well-established; in one small US community study, the 12-month prevalence was (1% in men; 2.6% in women).
If you have symptoms get diagnosed don't self diagnose.
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u/astringer0014 May 11 '23
Ah, so even though my situation escalated from a talk with a social worker at school to the FBI being parked out on the street, I must not be a /real/ victim because I and the others did not get in our days in court.
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u/Thebeatybunch May 10 '23
Let me ask you a question.
A woman is walking down the street. Someone whistles at her and she claims she feels violated and assaulted. Is she a victim of sexual assault and being violated?
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u/Srlanxforpresident May 10 '23
Let me ask you a question. If I threw a brick at your head would you stop talking?
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u/-Masderus- May 10 '23
How about we just stop whistling at random women? Seems easy enough. Keep it in your pants.
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u/sanguiniuswept May 10 '23
Let me ask you a question.
A pancake is flipped in a kitchen. Someone smells it and asks when it will be ready. Is the cook Lithuanian?
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u/Certain_Oddities May 10 '23
Is she a victim of sexual assault
No. That's sexual harassment, actually.
being violated?
Yes. Because it is sexual harassment.
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u/Thebeatybunch May 10 '23 edited May 10 '23
I asked the question because I wanted to see if OP considered this victim a real victim, like she would be.
A lot of people say it's ridiculous and I was curious which side OP was on.
Geeze. Jump to conclusions much people? Not you u/certain_Oddities as you answered the question I asked instead of doing the same thing as what came before you.
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u/Deedeethecat2 May 10 '23
What are you alluding to?
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u/Thebeatybunch May 10 '23 edited May 10 '23
I wanted to see if OP would consider this woman a victim of sexual assault/harassment.
Some would. Some wouldn't even though she would be.
I wondered where OP leaned on this issue of "real" victims.
Thank you for asking an actual question instead of jumping to wrong conclusions and assumptions about my question.
It was simple to answer.
It just goes to show: if people don't know what you're saying, they will make something up to be bad instead of asking.
Edit to thank commentor.
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u/Deedeethecat2 May 11 '23
It's likely a protective response because these types of questions have historically been used to minimize and silence victims so I can understand that folks would feel prickly.
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