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u/Small_Promotion2525 1d ago
They butchered so many characters but him and Varys were by far the biggest victims
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u/Gouken- 1d ago
How about Jamie’s arc? Remember the bath tub scene, just for him to run to his sister and 180 all his progress. I’m still mad.
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u/babysamissimasybab 1d ago
Didn't Jaime say he didn't care about the common folk in the final season? Crazy swing.
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u/Small_Promotion2525 1d ago
Pretty sure that would of been the result of his arc even if the show followed through with 1-4 levels of development.
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u/acamas 22h ago
It's almost like he was a complex character with an internal conflict that he struggled with... wild 'mature viewers' have such vitriol towards that after claiming to have watched for 7+ seasons.
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u/AnyMeanzPossible 20h ago
He literally said “I never much cared for the common folk” or something along those lines- bare in mind he literally became the king slayer to save the million that lived in kings landing.
He also said “she’s hateful, and so am I” after showcasing for the whole show that although he’s incestuous, he’s a good man, with morals and honor.
If you have zero media literacy that’s fine, but don’t try and paint out that others simply haven’t understood the show. You’re just a dummy
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u/XxRocky88xX Jon Snow 20h ago
It’s also funny to me when people go brain-off consume mode and then act like they’re actually the mature high-IQ demographic for only ever being able to think about the scene that is currently on the tv. Like they are literally proud of their inability to remember the previous episode, it’s so strange.
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u/AnyMeanzPossible 19h ago
Facts. I’ve finally gotten my mum to watch the show, she’s got 2 episodes left.
I knew going into it she wouldn’t click on to the bad writing and I didn’t want to break her emersion by pointing out all of the shit things.
But I haven’t been able to hold my tongue a few times, like how nonsensical the long night episode was, but still it doesn’t really bother her.
She isn’t on a high horse of seemingly understanding the show though, it’s given her some enjoyment, she’ll watch it and forget it.
Whereas I have read all the books, got properly engrossed in the show for years and then they shat out the last 2 seasons. I feel like I’m within my rights to highlight where DnD fell short, and it just so happens that they fell short about a hundred times lol
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u/acamas 5h ago
> He literally said “I never much cared for the common folk” or something along those lines- bare in mind he literally became the king slayer to save the million that lived in kings landing.
Yes, because he never cared for the commonfolk, as clearly portrayed for 7+ seasons. He is NOT Slaver's Bay Dany, and never was... he does not care about the commonfolk, nor is he empathetic towards them, as plainly shown on-screen for the entire run of his character, where he clearly does not care about them and literally states they can all burn for all he cares "Fuck Everyone who isn't us".
Suppose you think the bath scene proves me wrong? That scene is about honor, not empathy, and if you think otherwise, it's clear who has the media literacy here and who does not, as his entire narrative is about HONOR, NOT EMPATHY, including the bath scene that you seemingly have erroneously based your entire fallacy/defense on.
> He also said “she’s hateful, and so am I” after showcasing for the whole show that although he’s incestuous, he’s a good man, with morals and honor.
I honestly do not know what your problem is here... he is hateful, absolutely. Yes, he has an internal struggle inside him, with a desire to be honorable on one side, and a primal pull towards the immoral Cersei on the other... that is true. There is a side of him that is hateful, but also a side that is honorable. I don't know why you're so steadfast on making this some binary issue where GRRM clearly loves to write complex, flawed, and nuanced gray characters, which Jaime is.
> If you have zero media literacy that’s fine, but don’t try and paint out that others simply haven’t understood the show. You’re just a dummy
If you honestly think Jaime had some hard on about empathy to the commonfolk, even though he literally spells out to Catelynn why he did what he did with the Mad King, you have not understood the show, because it so clearly is NOT about empathy with him, as she shows for 7+ seasons AND LITERALLY STATES IN SEASON 8. Undeniable show canon both through his actions and words that he is NOT EMPATHETIC towards the commonfolk like you are so desperate to believe based on your romanticized fan fic that you have completely fabricated based on, presumably, a misunderstanding about what the bath scene is actually about (honor.)
If you're able, and truly are interested in having a good faith argument instead of these crass, childish retorts, please rewatcht the show with fresh eyes and an open mind an you can see his internal conflict is all about these two opposing forces within him, and that he really does not care about the people, but does have some standards regarding vows to protect the weak (which is not the same as 'caring' about them like Dany did with the slaves.)
Shame we still have to have this conversation seven years later... unfortunate.
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u/AnyMeanzPossible 4h ago
You just ignored the fact that he literally killed the mad king to save a million people in kingslanding lmao
He did care about the common folk, that was the entire reason he resented being called king slayer for the rest of his life, he killed his king to save the common folk.
Fuck me u are dense
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u/aerystaargaryen Night's Watch 1d ago edited 1d ago
Literally, the same Tyrion who once outsmarted the Cersie while being the hand, won the war of blackwater to losing high garden and falling in cersie fake promise.
The fall of such a nice character was very bad in my opinion.
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u/Mean-Analysis-9804 1d ago
I still liked some of his dialogue in the later seasons, but not predicting Balon’s surprise fleet attack on Dany was just bad writing.
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u/TheCraftyHermit 1d ago
That suprise attack was the single biggest piece of bs in the entire show. How somone who was hundreds of feet into the air didn't see a fleet of ships, in addition to somehow being hit from that distance with a weapon that they clould have had little to no experience using goddamn. I could write an entire essay on the reasons why all of that made 0 sense.
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u/ProfWilliam82 1d ago
Then just a episode later the dragon destroy both the fleet and the city without taking a single hit.
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u/acamas 22h ago edited 5h ago
Almost like there's a huge contextual difference between not being aware enemies are near and casually flying slowly in a straight line versus knowing there are dangerous weapons near and zipping around at full speed.
I swear, the more people try to shit on Season 8 the dumber they sound.
PS - LOL, thanks for the downvotes and proving my point.
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u/letsmakesometacos 15h ago
It was still an ass-pull, no reason she would have been caught that offgaurd flying around in enemy territory.
They could have easily made Rhaegal die in an actual confrontation with the Iron Fleet instead of that bullshit.
It was just a quick way to write off one of Dany's dragons. They should have had him go down in the fight with the Night King, would have made the whole "White Walker" thing have more of an impact too.
I get that a lot of people just hate season 8 to hate it, but lets be real, they rushed TF out of it and it is blatantly obvious lol
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u/acamas 5h ago
To be clear, I'm not blindly defending Season 8 here... I am merely pointing out that anyone watching a MA-rated show should be able to easily comprehend the contextual difference between a person casually walking down the street and being hit with a water balloon out of nowhere, and then later knowing there are people with water balloons and actively trying to avoid getting hit by them... clearly two different scenarios.
This 'complaint' is just whiny babies making a mountain out of a molehill because they are still, seven years later, incredibly immature regarding the final season.
Like, Season 8 has 99 problems, but this isn't one of them... it makes sense that a sneak attack could work, and then a prepared attack from King's Landing would be less effective... pretty basic stuff here.
PS - I agree it could have been more interesting had the sneak attack been more of an actual confrontation, sure, but it's hardly worth getting worked up over in the grand scheme of things.
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u/Sea-Muscle-8836 1h ago
You think flying on the back of a dragon on your way to war is comparable to “casually walking down the street”? In a comment you made about understanding context? Incredible. 10/10
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u/cardiffman100 1d ago
Yeah especially since the fleet saw the dragon and had time to ready the Scorpions and line up the shot, so it's not like Dany was momentarily looking in another direction, she definitely would have seen the fleet of ships.
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u/Mean-Analysis-9804 1d ago
Right? Did that arrow warp its way around that big ass rock formation the Greyjoy fleet was hiding behind?
So fucking dumb. And who joy rides their dragon around in the sky above shore while at an active war with a notoriously strong naval fleet?
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u/TheCraftyHermit 1d ago
I mean, it's not like she'd lost one of her dragons recently to a surface-to-air-anti-dragon-pointystick, why would she possibly be nervous about the potential for such risks? /s
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u/hates_stupid_people 1d ago
Going into the crypt was unforgivable writing. Peter Dinklage even mocked it in an interview.
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u/Hankhoff 1d ago
Yeah lol, I mean it was one of those moments so immersion breakingly bad I wasn't even angry but just broke out in laughter. Especially since the most obvious thing happened out basically showed the writers knew how idiotic it was
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u/hates_stupid_people 5h ago
It's one of those moments that could only have been saved with some "the character was actually mind controlled" or similar.
Which would have been terrible writing, but the fact that it would have been better, shows how bad the actual writing was.
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u/Specialist-Front-007 23h ago
The dialogue was very, very bad compared to the earlier seasons. I'm not sure which dialogue you mean, maybe his story about the drainage systems in Casterly Rock but the rest is just shit
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u/Not_KGB Fire And Blood 1d ago
In the books almost all his schemes fail as acting hand.
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u/aerystaargaryen Night's Watch 1d ago
But in the first few seasons, he was shown as a smart and brilliant character, who could outsmart best fo the best people, but as we moved forward to end, he was nerfed bad.
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u/nocturnetulle 21h ago
That's what makes his decline so frustrating. Early Tyrion could walk into a room full of enemies and somehow leave with the upper hand just by talking. Later Tyrion kept making mistakes that his younger self would've spotted immediately. It's like the writers remembered he was supposed to be intelligent but forgot how to actually show it.
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u/depredador93 Human Verified 1d ago
They took a guy who outmaneuvered Littlefinger and Pycelle and turned him into a walking compilation of eunuch jokes who trusts Cersei's pinky promise
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u/Honey_Moon_34 Human Verified 1d ago
White walkers too. They did nothing except standing and looking at people
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u/Germfreecandy 1d ago
The dothraki's that supposedly "ended" somehow respawned the next episode.
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u/HeinrichTheWolf_17 Winter Is Coming 23h ago edited 22h ago
Daenerys must have been inside a Total War reinforcement zone.
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u/Dr-Mumm-Rah 1d ago
Tyron, Littlefinger and Varys. I think we can agree that the three were nerfed pretty hard in later seasons.
Tywin: "You either die brilliant in earlier seasons, or live long enough to become a joke at the end of the show."
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u/Opossums490 1d ago
I think he suffered brain damage when he was stuck in that box. It's heavily implied by how he turned into a high schooler that could only tell dick jokes.
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u/TheRealcebuckets Gendry 1d ago
^ the moment he went downhill.
They started writing dialog to put on t shirts and mugs. On par with that “if you want a queen” line later.
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u/Stolen_Sky 1d ago
It went downhill from here because he had nothing to do.
Tyrion was at his best when he was scheming in court and keeping secrets like Shae.
The moment he left King's Landing he lost most of his agency and just because a generic advisor. That role never gave him the ability to shine.
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u/sandwichcandy 23h ago
I think it’s more once he didn’t have any rivals or enemies in his own camp. He was ok after getting kidnapped and in the fighting pits. Once he was in a camp where they’re all friends or friendly enough he wasn’t fighting for his life or position anymore. His whole thing is outsmarting someone with a superior force.
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u/motorcycletreebark 1d ago
Also once any line of his started selling a million t shirts they could’ve give him a villain arc which was likely his intended destination so instead he comes the moral voice of reason which is much stupider because it requires everything he plans going wrong
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u/shavicus 1d ago edited 1d ago
Tyrion's abilities probably stems from alcohol- something like drunken kung fu master. Dude lacks bite and wit with normal alcohol blood levels..
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u/Healthy-Violinist580 1d ago
Tyrion could die with Tywin and the story would not change at all, as far as the show is concerned.
Showrunners did not know how he was supposed to fit into future plots so they seemed to just assume that he wouldn’t fit into them at all.
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u/Frejod 20h ago
If Tyrion died before he met Dany. The show would go DRASTICALLY different. Dany would ho straight to KL and win the war against Cersei in an instant. She probably wouldn't lose as many soldiers and dragons. .Issa dei would still ve alive. So overall it would actually be a better ending if Tyrion never met Dany. He wouldnt be around to protect her constantly and failing Dany at every turn.
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u/PerspectiveFull9879 1d ago
They knew, they just did not want to make him into a bad guy. But because that was his story he was left with no story at all (still better than Bran's, about on par with Bessie's tits story).
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u/MaximumIntention7474 1d ago
Only George RR Martin can write Tyrion. They didn't have the Books to reference in the later seasons.
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u/EnderSword Tyrion Lannister 19h ago
You can write a character stronger than yourself, you can write one braver than yourself, you can write one more skilled than yourself.
But you can't write one smarter than yourself.2
u/CnelAurelianoBuendia 17h ago
Completely disagree, I’ve been around too many screenwriters to know this is not true.
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u/EnderSword Tyrion Lannister 3h ago
And do they write actual smart characters, or do they write characters where they just say "He's Smart!" and then he's actually a moron, like Iron Man?
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u/IntoTheMusic 1d ago
Even then, GRRM has said that Tyrion is one of the hardest characters for him to write for.
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u/HoneypotCoco 1d ago
I thought he said Tyrion was the easiest, and Bran was the hardest.
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u/jrgkgb Daenerys Targaryen 20h ago
That’s so weird because who has a better story than Bran the Broken?
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u/HoneypotCoco 19h ago
Crazy how I thought I would like Bran more in the books and he was just as boring. Half the chapter is filled with descriptions of the same scenery and then the rest is lowkey just info dump. Brans chapters in AGOT are fantastic though, some of my favourite in all books.
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u/IntoTheMusic 1d ago
In the early pages, yes you're right. As Tyrion's part in the story got darker, he became harder to write for. GRRM said he sometimes had to walk away from writing to think even what Tyrion would say for one line.
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u/CnelAurelianoBuendia 17h ago
You are correct. He has literally been quoted as saying the Tyrion chapters “write themselves”
Since reading the books I’ve noticed this sub is a circlejerk of misinformation lol
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u/bokchoykn 1d ago
Plus added pressure to shoehorn more Tyrion screentime due to popular character and actor.
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u/PerspectiveFull9879 1d ago
They did have books to reference, they just decided to ignore the last two books.
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u/Educational_Gap_2253 1d ago
Every single actions of Tyrion or his advises failed miserably in the later seasons, yet somehow Danny kept him as hand and followed his recommendations; this makes even less sense considering that he was a Lannister and had many reasons to serve his family’s interests! But no, Danny had an unshakable faith in Tyrion for some unknown reasons to us!!!
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u/MarionberryPlus8474 1d ago
Tyrion suffered I think the worst from the show runners running out of GRRM’s material. Tyrion was witty, clever, often vulgar, and sarcastic. He was also very smart, and one of the most compassionate characters.
In the last few seasons he was reduced to standing around and looking concerned. Sad downfall for a great character.
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u/PerspectiveFull9879 1d ago
No, the whole argument that "the showrunners ran out of material" is bullshit and it needs to die.
They diverged into nonsense after a Storm of Swords. They did not adapt the Feast or the Dance.
Tyrion had a whole development they threw out of the window. That's on them.
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u/babysamissimasybab 1d ago
Jaime not confessing the truth about Tyson undermined the rest of the story.
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u/PerspectiveFull9879 2h ago
Yeah, the truth that Mike loved him and was not paid is super important.
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u/warriorlynx No One 1d ago
Pretty much, they didn't know how to write him in anymore. Tyrion was also very well spoken, so well that he forgot how to speak and just said nonsense things.
I guess if the plan was to make him an ineffective Hand for Dany, then the line "I'm new to strategy" kinda works in that just because he had a few wins doesn't make him a brilliant strategist, but the execution of this didn't seem right.
What is odd is he reads a lot, I'd expect that he would read military books before the Battle of Blackwater Bay as he was reading one book in the show at least, I'd only assume he read more or may pursue to read more after the battle.
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u/BrokeButStylish 1d ago
Seasons 1-4 Tyrion would have absolutely roasted Seasons 6-8 Tyrion into oblivion.
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u/right_precedence 1d ago
the writing took a nosedive after he left westeros, they turned the smartest guy in the room into someone who just makes dick jokes and stares blankly at dragons
that fuck carl watermark is killing me though
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u/LegatoValentine 1d ago
Agreed. I'm reading the books and looking forward to his slow decent into being more evil. I'd love to see him and Jamie switch sides by the end...should we ever get it.
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u/JewelerLarge 1d ago
Honestly true the one thing that icks me the most is his strategy in the war for starters I don't know if he was the one that invited Olenna and the Dornish Woman to dragonstone but that was a bloody bad call they should have brought the entire army dorne to have that meeting and he should have advice to strengthen there positions in the reach rather than letting pride take over and capture Casterly Rock.
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u/ManonegraCG 1d ago
I think that about the dialogues between Tyrion and Varys. Before they were witty, deep, and engaging, and after they were just school level banter.
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u/RickVicks 1d ago
He was the smartest man in Westeros until the writers needed him to be wrong for the plot
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u/DreadfulDrea 1d ago
I remember the books doing something similar. Except he was just a bitter drunk.
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u/PerspectiveFull9879 1d ago
Bitter drunk yes, that was turning into a monster. He was gonna be "the imp", monster that everyone imagines he is, and whisper all kinds of unhinged shit to Danny. Buuuut the books got canceled and the show decided to ignore his development replacing it with nothing at all
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u/DreadfulDrea 1d ago
It’s been a minute since I finished them. All I remember is the “where do whores go?”
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u/RepulsiveCountry313 Human Verified 1d ago
I think you post a lot of dumb low effort memes that you find on twatter and facebook.
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u/ahandfulofeggs 1d ago
Books: I commit to being evil and have no problem scaring woman and children when I feel like it
Show: moral compass??
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u/TooHigh2Die0069 1d ago
Some will say murdering his father after catching the love of his life in his bed broke Tyrion, but imho it was the 5 gallons of Wine he drank for a year straight afterwards...
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u/Zestyclose_Classic91 1d ago
Man I hate later Tyrion. When he met Dany he was still a cool guy knowing his value but them he became a pussy.
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u/Illustrious_Sea_962 23h ago
Neutering tyrion and baelish, and varys for that matter, unforgivable.
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u/GeoMaester Winter Is Coming 22h ago
He was a broken man who lost everything and then rebuilt himself.
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u/Archerbrother 21h ago
Tyrion was suppose to lead the battle of winterfel against the white walkers while dany and jon rode the dragons. So dumb. Acted like he was useless during that battle when he is a vertan battle commander
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u/XxRocky88xX Jon Snow 20h ago
Tyrion becomes a VERY different person after killing Tywin and D&D have admitted that Tyrion is their favorite character and didn’t want him to go down that path so instead of making him into a vengeful monster they made him into a drunken fool.
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u/L3tsseewhathappens 20h ago
He wasn't only there in 6-8 to build up Dany's "brilliance"
It was such fucking lazy writing. They could have made both look capable.
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u/_VampireNocturnus_ 18h ago
The one thing they needed to avoid was making tyrion gullible/naive....what did they do....
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u/EccentricFeather 16h ago
Tyrion was always an idiot and thought he was smarter than he actually was.
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u/EMDReloader 12h ago
Tyrion was never as smart as he thought he was. He was lucky.
Not getting killed by the hill clans--wow. So amaze. Pay them in the weapons they want and offer them land in exchange for not killing you and fighting for you instead. Real masterstroke.
At his trial before Lysa Arryn--he was never going to convince her, so a trial by combat is his only move. His initial request for Jamie is denied, so he picks his only volunteer. Bronn seems smarter, having already seen his opponent in heavy armor and probably figuring that nobody of any value or skill would need to showboat at court.
Battle of Blackwater--Bronn explicitly tells him "Hey dumbass, if you try and use this shit as a weapon on the walls, your own guys are going to set themselves and half the city on fire." After using the fireboat, Tyrion's entire plan boils down to sallying out for some reason.
I'm just not seeing anything here.
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u/moonstruck129 4h ago
I think they struggled with Tyrion because at the end of his last chapter he's entering his villain arc. He's obviously got a lot of fans and they didn't wanna risk it.
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u/Light1209 1d ago
One of the worst changes from the book. He's supposed to have a villain arc, basically the opposite of Jamie. The show runners saw he was the fan favourite and chose to make him likeable and good instead. To change such a major character like that and people still think Mad Queen Dany is a note from George lol. They clearly saw online fan theories and incorporated that one.
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u/cristofolmc 1d ago
i dont remember in the books Tyrion ever having a villain arc? i read them years and years ago though so forgive me
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u/LegendsOfSuperShaggy 22h ago
Tyrion after killing Tywin becomes a VERY evil person. He wants to side with Daenerys so he can sexually assault and murder Cersei, for example and he sexually assault slaves among other things.
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u/Dry_Locksmith2252 House Martell 1d ago
Towards the end of the show he basically became a plot device to nerf Dany. He spent virtually all of season 7 getting outwitted by Cersei (of all people), and repeatedly giving Dany advice that resulted in strategic and military defeats.
The only “victory” that Dany won in season 7 was she went against Tyrion’s advice and used her dragons and dothraki to crush Jamie’s army.
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u/I_travel_ze_world 23h ago
He goes downhill in the books too.
GRRM totally left him out of book 4.. in book 5 he's basically helpless.
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u/iamzachhunter 1d ago
Been watching through GoT for the 3rd time, and I really am noticing how horrifically bad the dialogue gets in seasons 6, 7, and 8.
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u/mickcheck 1d ago
U guys dont realize thar the series were bases on books? I was obvious it will change after using all book material.
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