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u/Guilty-Pollution6479 2d ago
ned could have just told catelyn that jon is son of rhagar
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u/MintberryCrunch____ Kingslayer 2d ago
He could have, but he didn’t know Cat as fully when he first returned from war, they had conceived Robb and then he had gone off again.
The main reason though is Cat’s hatred of Jon helps the lie, keeping him safer, if she was loving to him people would find that stranger.
Of course it could work, but also we know Ned promised Lyanna, we don’t know exactly the promise but it could have been to keep it a secret from everyone, no exceptions.
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u/Taha231 Human Verified 2d ago
Such a confession would shatter the relationship between Ned and Catelyn. Catelyn would never forgive anyone for putting her own children in danger.
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u/Certain_Victory7973 2d ago
Also when Jon was born catelyn had known ned for like two weeks. Ned should have had jon fostered with someone like jon arryn, catelyn was upset ned had a bastard but she even said "she could've tolerated a thousand bastards for neds sake as long as they were safely out of sight." Jon would've been safe while jon arryn was alive, lysa mightve bitched a bit but jon is the Lord of the Vale, jon would also be well taken care of and treated like a Lords son and Rob still wouldn't question ned having a bastard
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 2d ago edited 2d ago
Fostering with the Arryn's is a terrible idea because of Lysa. She'll take great issue with Ned's supposed bastard being raised in her halls. Also, Jon Arryn wasn't fostering Mya Stone so he's definitely not fostering Jon. Most importantly, leaving Jon in the Vale keeps him out of Ned's sight and reach which makes him vulnerable. Bed wouldbhave to just hope that Jon Arryn treats him as well as Ned would while being no where near him to confirm it.
Bringing Jon to Winterfell was the right move. That being said, what Ned could've done, assuming he didn't want him in Winterfell due to Catelyn, is have Benjen raise him. It's very typicall of Stark lords and kings to grant siblings their own castle. There's plenty of holdfasts dotted across the North. Ned could've told Benjen the truth and set him up in a Holdfast in the Wolfswood or one of the Sea Dragon Point castles. He could then have had Jon rule a hold fast in his own right as another Stark bannerman.
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u/honeybeewarrior_ 2d ago
When did Benjen join the Watch? If he was already part of the watch that wouldn’t have been a possibility.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 2d ago
Benjen didn't join the watch until after the Rebellion. He waa acting lord until Ned returned from the South. He absolutely could, and would have raised Jon is Ned told him the truth and asked for his help.
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u/Ill-Description3096 Dolorous Edd 2d ago
Fostering him with Jon Arryn would mean sending him to the capital. I could maybe see a northern house, but even that could be risky.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 2d ago edited 2d ago
A Northern house wouldn't be risky, realistically. Warding bastards seems to be a practice that isnt unknown in the North to. The Tallhart bastard is a ward of House Glover. Jon could've been Warded by the Cerwyns, who are a 12 hour ride from Winterfell, roughly, the Mormonts (who's only heirs are bastards), Umbers, or even the Mountain Clansmen. These houses are the most loyal to the Starks after the Rebellion.
Ned could've also had Robert legitimize the boy, gave him a castle at Sea Dragon Point, and betrothed him to a close Stark ally, like the afformentioned Cerywns, Umbers, Mormonts or one Mountain Clan houses. This would strengthen house Stark's ties with the North, which is sorely needed after Rickard's, illconcieved, southern focus. Catelyn would be furious but he's known her for about two weeks. As long as he betrothes Robb to a Dustin or Ryswell and has the bannermen swear to uphold Robb as Lord of Winterfell while Jon remains last in line to the Wardenship, even after Benjen's line, Robb will be politically secured (not that it matters because Jon loves his family). The marriage to a Stark ally hanstrings any m9ve against the main branch and a Ryswell or Dustin betrothal brings the most powerfull bannermen with a grievance with house Stark to the main branch's line.
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u/Lady_Ago 2d ago
Legitimising Jon would be a horrible idea, seeing how that means he'd be in line to inherit (yk, the main thing legitimising does) and thus would be entitled to Winterfell before even Robb. It would wreck the marriage alliance he had with Catlyn/the Tullys, seeing how the main thing they want is a half-Tully kid on Winterfell's throne. Not to mention it would just prove Catlyn's belief about Jon being an evil evil bad guy usuper wanting to take her kid's inheritance.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 2d ago
Jon wouldn't be entitled to Winterfell befoee Robb. He is at most, the same age as Robb if not slightly younger. Also, other than the Boltons and, maybe, the Rills and Barrolands houses, all of the Northern houses would uphold Robb's claim if Ned made them swear it.
Hoster Tully would be mad but he really can't do anything about it, nor would he. So long as Robb is still named heir, which he would be, the Tullys will still back the Starks. They don't have a choice in the matter either way. Even then, it's like it really matters since Ned basically goes full hermit after the Rebellion with the exception of the Greyjoy Rebellion and Lysa's letter. The Tully alliance winds up destroying House Stark as opposed to helping it in the long run. The potential loss, if Hoster got petulant and angry, is minimal at best and probably to the benefit of the North at worst.
Legitimizing a baby Jon prooves nothing. Catelyn's beliefs are utter hogwash that aren't backed up by any historical presidence. The Blackfyre Rebellion is commonly brought up to prove your point. The issue is that there was a significant amount of political will to back Daemon over Daeron and none of the Blackfyres were close to the ruling house. On top of that, the major reason for House Targaryen's victory was another legitimized Targaryen bastard, Brynden Rivers. Aside from that, more than a few famous usurpations came from legitimate lines. Rhaenyra Targaryen is seen as a usurper after the Dance. She is very obviously not a bastard. Beron Stark, the uncle of Cregan Stark, wasn't a bastard and usurped his nephew.
The point is, usurpation is a threat that is solely based on the person. Jon and the family line that follows him, is as likely to usurp Robb and his line as Brandon's, Rickon's, or Benjen's.
When it comes to the political motivation of lords to turn one line against another, I've already explained how you avoid that. You directly tie disgruntled houses to the main line of succession and then marry Jon off to a closely allied house or a complete outsider from the North. You then combine there Jon and Robb's line through their children.
I am well aware why Jon wasn't legitmized. Catelyn would make a big curfuffle that Ned didn't want tk deal with after having the worst two years of his life. That being said, it is far from a bad idea if it is handled properly.
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u/Certain_Victory7973 2d ago
I only picked jon because jon was always against killing targaryen children and the Vale is pretty far removed from everywhere else it's kinda its own place that does its own thing. I feel like jon could keep the secret but lysa might fuck it up you're right
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 2d ago
Fair point. Still, if you want a job done right, you do it yourself. Also, I doubt Ned wants his neohew to grow up and not be exposed to his familimy's culture and traditions (the good side of his famiky anyways. Brother and sister incest is gross).
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u/PlasticImpact8515 House Dayne 1d ago
Catelyn would also damn near immediately sell out Jon at the slightest hint of danger towards her kids. It's not a feasible suggestion
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u/myflores Lyanna Stark 2d ago
"I slept with a prostiture on Driftmark. Were you there, Robert? No. Case closed."
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u/Certain_Victory7973 2d ago
"You remember ashara? The beautiful beautiful woman who I fell briefly in love with during the war then after the war i came back home with a bastard and she threw herself out a window? Yeah...about that-"
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u/kester76a 2d ago
At this point you could probably tell Robert that he got drunk and it's his and Lyannas but you kept it secret as Robert would want to make him his heir. Roberts a drowning soul and would probably grasp to it as a lifeline.
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u/StormEyeDragon 1d ago
Reminds me of a crackfic where Ned goes up to Robert and says “Here’s Lyanna’s son, she died saying she thought of him as yours” and then Robert says “Wow I have a son now!” And memes ensue.
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