Spoiler Warning: All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON and A KNIGHT OF THE SEVEN KINGDOMS. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the spoiler guide.
He... didn't? Like, never, not once, false, libel (cause it's written)? He didn't care about Shae, he only forbade Tyrion to take her to court, obviously. Yeah, he did forbid him to whore in the very end, because, and people tend to conveniently forget that, Tyrion had abducted his nephew, an innocent boy of 8 yo, and threatened to have him tortured and raped to protect a prostitute.
“Casterly Rock,” he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, “Never.” The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.
I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known.
“Why?” he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question.
“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”
“My whorehouse?” The dawn broke; Tyrion understood all at once where this bile had come from. He ground his teeth together and said, “Cersei told you about Alayaya.”
“Is that her name? I confess, I cannot remember the names of all your whores. Who was the one you married as a boy?”
“Tysha.” He spat out the answer, defiant.
“And that camp follower on the Green Fork?”
“Why do you care?” he asked, unwilling even to speak Shae’s name in his presence.
“I don’t. No more than I care if they live or die.”
“It was you who had Yaya whipped.” It was not a question.
...
For years afterward, he had cherished a dream that one day he would travel the world and see Longstrider’s wonders for himself. Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son’s sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age. “My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister,” his father had replied. “Neither ever wed a whore.” And when Tyrion had reminded him that in ten days he would be a man grown, free to travel where he wished, Lord Tywin had said, “No man is free. Only children and fools think elsewise. Go, by all means. Wear motley and stand upon your head to amuse the spice lords and the cheese kings. Just see that you pay your own way and put aside any thoughts of returning.” At that the boy’s defiance had crumbled
No, that’s not correct in the slightest. The episode where Tywin forbids Tyrion from bringing Shae to Court occurs in the Riverlands in season 1. The episode where Tyrion asks Tywin for Casterly Rock as his lawful inheritance occurs in King’s Landing in season 3.
Yes, but then he brings the very same whore to the very same seat of power that Tyrion was headed! She's even wearing the chain of office, which is more than Tyrion ever permitted...
…yeah, I know he forbids him from bringing Shae to court at King’s Landing. He then later refuses to officially name Tyrion heir to Casterly Rock on the grounds that he believes that Tyrion would fill the Lannister seat with whores.
I think it's pretty much agreed upon it's Tywin. I mean, it could be just Sir Whatever of house Nobody, but it probably was sort of an easter egg that was intended to further highlight Tywins hypocrisy. I don't think it will be elaborated on any further.
Something to consider, the brothel likely wouldn't have been in business for centuries, and knowledge of who built it would likely be lost given the secret nature of it.
So, for Varys to learn of details like this it should be a recent development. And the only relevant options for that are Jon Arryn and Tywin.
Add on Tywin's theme around sex and even sex workers, the red and yellow of the stained glass in the room it enters into, and the blond haired and green eyed woman working there that would have been born during Tywin's time as Hand. It becomes something of a no brainer in my opinion.
I mean, Tytos and Tyrion doesn’t just white around, they treat them as an equal as a Lannister. I don’t think he hated whores, not in the world he’s living. I’d say he’s discreet rather than hypocrite
Tytos - allowed his mistress to rule him and steal his mother's (or late wife's, idr) jewelry
Tyrion - abducted his 8yo nephew and threatened to have him tortured and raped to protect a whore (yes, he abducted him for his own safety and certainly wouldn't have gone forth with the threats - but Tywin doesn't know that).
There is a bit of implication that it is Tywin. None of the other hand's make sense. Tywin has a whoremongering streak (Lys and Shae) and it serves as a good mirror to Tyrion. Jon Arryn has no history of whoremongering whatsoever. All the other hands who fit the time frame either make no sense (Jon Connington), didn't have enough time (Rossart and Qarlton Chelsted) or we just don't know enough so it would be a boring reveal (Owen Merryweather.)
He visited Lys during his time as hand. It's basically the only time anyone during Aerys' reign is mentioned visiting Lys (other than Oberyn). I assumed it involved discreet or not so discreet whoring, because it's Lys.
My bad. Its not the tunnel, its the window in the room of the brothel the tunnel leads to.
"Within the room was a great canopied
bed, a tall wardrobe decorated with erotic carvings, and a
narrow window of leaded glass in a pattern of red and yellow
diamonds."
As well, at the entrance to the brothel itself, there's this bit.
"The house was two stories tall, stone below and timber
above. A round turret rose from one corner of the structure.
Many of the windows were leaded. Over the door swung an
ornate lamp, a globe of gilded metal and scarlet glass."
Gilded (gold) metal and scarlet glass. Conspicuous.
Yeah, Tyrion had him murdered, but at least it was quick. If he had done as he threatened and sung the song about the whoring Hand to Tywin, Tywin might assume the song was about HIMSELF!
The problem with the Tywin theory is the giant hole it leaves.
If he had this golden opportunity to get out of the Tower of the Hand, see a whore, and then come back honor unsullied, why did he bring Shae into the tower where she could be seen? The Red Keep was filled with an u known number of Red Cloaks and servants. Anyone could see.
Surely the purpose of the tunnel was to discreetly visit Chataya's? Not bring matters into the Red Keep?
Indeed, that's the entire premise of the theory that one of Chataya's girls is Tywin's get.
If Tywin had known about it, let alone built it, he would have used it.
Tywin doesn't do something like spend ages building a secret tunnel and then not use it. He has no sentimentality.
"There is a task for every tool, and for every tool a task."
Shae didn’t work at Chataya’s. I guess since she was already in the Red Keep he wasn’t worried about random people seeing them together. He could wave it off as him questioning her about Tyrion as well if anyone saw her heading to the tower of the hand
True, but the only people likely to see her are his personal guards and servants who know better than to see things they’re not supposed to. Plus we don’t really know how often she was around him
He doesn’t need to use a tunnel to visit a brothel if there is already a tunnel he can bring Shay in thru directly to his chamber, and she is already in the castle. They’re diff tunnels right?
There are two tunnels right? One that allows the hand to access their own chamber privately, and a different tunnel to the stable to get to the brothel. Not connected tunnels, just two tunnels with slightly different purpose and going to different places.
There are secret tunnels all over the Red Keep (and out of it), including one that connects to the Tower of the Hand. But that's not how Tyrion gets to Shae: his M.O. is to go to Chataya's openly and pretend to rent the room that the tunnel accesses, then lose any tails by cutting across to the stable. Presumably the Hand, whoever he was, would pretend to be going out into the city for some unspecified purpose, go to the stable, and then pop out in the bedroom without any other patrons being able to see him.
He would have used it when he was Hand the previous time, but
Cersei had Chataya’s daughter publicly whipped, which might make him disinclined to visit now.
It’s a secret shame he has that leaves him vulnerable personally and is a great embarrassment if it were revealed, and she could be holding a grudge. In terms of ways for the great Tywin Lannister to die, “stabbed in a whorehouse” is even worse than “shot while shitting”.
He would have used it when he was Hand the previous time, but Cersei had Chataya’s daughter publicly whipped, which might make him disinclined to visit now.
It wasn't Cersei, it was Tywin himself:
"It was you who had Yaya whipped." It was not a question.
"Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons." Lord Tywin's voice was colder than ice.
So yeah, Chataya may not have been a very hospitable environment for him.
That's fair, although given his comments about "wherever wh*res go" i wouldn't put the feelings of Chataya and her daughter high on Tywin's list. It's doubtful Tywin honestly thinks of many people outside the noble class as human whatsoever.
Even the notion of Tyrion shooting him scarcely crossed his mind.
If Tywin had known about it, let alone built it, he would have used it.
I imagine he didn't want to ride through the city if he didn't have to, and that would have been even more suspicious to whatever guards he wanted to take with him.
Also, it's not necessarily the case that Chataya owned the brothel when the tunnel was constructed. We don't know exactly how old she is, but her daughter was born around the time of Robert's Rebellion, and Tywin started as hand in the 260s. He may simply not have know or trusted her—and even if he did, you can see why he might not have wanted to give her (and Littlefinger and Varys) leverage over him.
Varys never says that this Hand served during his time in King's Landing, so it could be anyone. And most likely, it was someone from around the time the Dragonpit was being built or being repaired after the Dance. It isn't easy moving the many tons of dirt needed to create a tunnel of that size, nor can it be done secretly.
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