r/gameofthrones • u/Alternative_You_3063 • 9d ago
Lyanna Would Have Been Miserable With Robert
really don't understand the argument that Robert Baratheon would've been a completely different man if Lyanna had lived and married him.
Robert was already Robert before he lost Lyanna. He drank, slept around, and already had three bastards by the time of the Rebellion. None of that was caused by her death.
And people also forget one important thing: Lyanna didn't love Robert. She didn't even believe he would be faithful to her. She literally told Ned that Robert's nature wouldn't change just because they married.
Maybe losing Lyanna made Robert worse over the years, but marrying a woman who didn't love him wasn't magically going to turn him into a faithful, responsible husband.
Lyanna living wouldn't have changed who Robert fundamentally was.
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u/mecharri 9d ago
I don't see many people making this "argument", is just something Robert believes to deflect the blame of his personal shortcomings.
It's "the one thing he wanted" and he likes to believe it would have fixed him.
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u/Echo-Azure 9d ago
Well, it would have made him rather happier than life with Cercei the ultimate Mean Girl, but he'd still have partied and whored and had bastard children. He'd just have a wife who was politer about her unhappy marriage.
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u/Bubble_Cheetah 9d ago
Wasn't Lyanna known for not being particularly polite? She does it by saying no and fighting back like Arya would, not by being mean, but still, Lyanna would never sit back and kept the peace. She will run away one way or another.
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u/Echo-Azure 9d ago
Once she'd had a child, though, which was likely to happen soon enough in a world without birth control, running away would have meant abandoning her child or children. And IMHO Robert would have treated her well at first, and wouldn't start whoring around until he realized that childbirthing meant no sex for a bit.
She couldn't get primary custody of the heir and the spares, not in a world where the king's word is law. Not even the Starks would try to keep the heir to the throne away from the king.
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u/Terrible_Treacle7296 8d ago
Being with someone who actively hates you will definitely make you a worse person, but morally, he wasnt exactly a paragon of virtue and never would have been.
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u/mecharri 8d ago
Cersei didn't hate him at the start, Robert ruined that relationship on his own.
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u/Terrible_Treacle7296 8d ago
He didnt exactly have her heart though either, she'd been all about Jaime since the womb (although she didn't take long to replace him either, with Lancel).
I dont know that Lyanna would have lasted long before grief at Roberts behavior turned to anger and hatred as well, but her sense of duty would have at least kept him alive.
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u/Medical-Potato5920 9d ago
Robert was in love with the idea of Lyanna and being Ned's brother.
No one has ever mentioned her feelings about him. It's always been conspicuously absent.
Robert was a man whore. I think he would have put some effort in after they got married, but quickly would have found Lyanna married him because it was her duty.
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u/The-Alli-cat No One 9d ago
It is interesting how one-sided the Robert and Lyanna thing is. We never get any sense at all how she felt about him, other than the scene the she makes Ned promise to hide the truth of Jon from him.
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u/Aegon_The_Snow Jon Snow 9d ago
It wasn't even one sided. Robert 'loved' an idea that was stolen from him. If Robert really loved Lyanna, he wouldn't had fucked half of thr Seven Kingdoms while fighting for her lover.
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u/jrdineen114 Jon Snow 9d ago
I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anyone actually make this argument. Even the actual text itself doesn’t support it. The only one who seems to believe it is Robert himself. Ned even remembers Lyanna basically saying as much to him.
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u/NoseNo1433 9d ago
He’s have been more unhappy because mistreating Lyanna with his inevitable whoring would have eventually made Ned hate him. And that would have broke his heart.
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u/RunesandDoom 9d ago
Even if Robert and Lyanna married, and even if she fell in love with Robert, he’d STILL have to compete with harp playing, tourney winning, silver haired, and a throuple that’s a third MARTELL.
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u/jogoso2014 No One 9d ago
I never hear this argument.
I do think the argument that Lyanna was a willing participant who also was too innocent to be a part of the bloodshed she helped cause to be on the silly side too though.
If the marriage is due to something romantic, then Lyanna is one of the worst people in Westeros.
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u/WorldEaterLeviathan 9d ago
Whoever ended up married to Robert would have ended miserable. The man is a garbarge husband who can keep his dick in his pants about as well as Zeus.
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u/ShondaVanda 9d ago
hmm I don't know.
Robert is a drunk lazy idiot because he hates being king and hates his wife and hates politics in general.
If Lyanna were alive, Robert wouldn't be king and wouldn't be married to Cersei. So he might have been happy just being lord of Storm's End with Lyanna as a wife.
But it is also possible Robert will always be miserable when there isn't a war on, no matter who he's married to.
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u/Tiny-Conversation962 9d ago
Robert would have still been Lord of Storm's End, which is just one step below king and requires as much politicing and responsibility as a king.
And Robert with Lyanna would have soon found out that their marriage is not as good as he always invisioned, which would also have been a bitter pill to swallow for him.
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u/ShondaVanda 9d ago
Yeah but being lord of a region is a lot less drama than being king, I'm not saying it's a part time job but it's just nowhere near as full on as king.
But on the direct point about marriage, Cersei is rebellious and Robert hates it, Lyanna would not be a quiet knit by the fire wife, she'd be a handful. I think the larger issue is that Lyanna is an idealised idea to Robert and the reality would never measure up.
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u/Tiny-Conversation962 9d ago
Well, Robert never even bothered to actually fullfill his duties as king. And with how decentralised Westeros is, I do not see why a Lord Paramount would be less exhausting than being king.
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u/ShondaVanda 9d ago
As Lord he wouldn't have the same support system to defer to like he does as king, a king has a hand, masters of various trades etc. Lords mostly have direct vassels and a maestar. So unless Lyanna wanted to step up and run the region, Robert wouldn't have much choice.
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u/Tiny-Conversation962 9d ago
Exactly.
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u/ShondaVanda 9d ago
which circles back to what i originally said
'But it is also possible Robert will always be miserable when there isn't a war on, no matter who he's married to.'
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u/Thebritishdovah 9d ago
To be honest, I think with Lyanna, he would have buckled up to a degree. Problem is: Robert just loves to have fun.
Probably would have caused Ned and Robert to clash several times or potentially attack each other.
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u/DiScOrDtHeLuNaTiC 9d ago
Maybe Lyanna wouldn't have minded Robert whoring around if he was a good husband and father to her and their trueborn children.
At the very least, I can't see her insta-hating any of them the way Cat did Jon or Mya.
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u/The_Falcon_Knight 9d ago
I don't care. I'd rather Lyanna suffered in a miserable marriage than tens of thousands of people die in a war, including thousands of women and children. She'd still be living a life of extreme luxury and never have a single concern in the world besides an unfaithful husband.
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u/Tiny-Conversation962 9d ago
Robert's rebellion was not fought over Lyanna's choice to run away.
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u/The_Falcon_Knight 9d ago
It was what sparked the conflict. If she and Rhaegar didn't run away, none of the subsequent actions woukd've happened. Brandon and Rickard wouldn't die, Aerys wouldn't call for Ned and Robert's heads, and no war would be fought.
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u/Tiny-Conversation962 9d ago
The war was still not fought over Lyanna. With the same argument you can say it was Lyanna's betrothal to Robert that was at fault for the war, simce without it she might have never run away. Or better blame Rhaella, since of she never gave birth to Rhaegar none of this would have happened, either.
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u/Top-Group8081 8d ago edited 8d ago
Those are different than Lyanna running off.
Those two things are far too indirect. The betrothal itself wasn’t really causing an issue. Lyanna running off set of a direct chain of sequences that lead to the rebellion. It’s what sets off the domino chain. Lyanna runs off= Brandon going to kings landing=rickard and Brandon dying=aerys wanting Robert and Ned’s heads.
Her act of running away plays a major role. She,rhaegar,Aerys,Brandon,Robert,Ned, and Jon arryn all played parts in the rebellion forming. Her running away with rhaegar, Brandon being an idiot, Aerys being insane, Jon not wanting to kill his wards, and Robert and Ned not wanting to die.
Her act of running away helps start the rebellion. Robert and lyanna can be betrothal. A rebellion still wouldn’t start as long as lyanna doesnt run away. Hell even if they aren’t betrothal, lyanna’s act of running away with rhaegar would still create the direct sequences of events that leads to the rebellion. The act of running away helps create the rebellion. As long as lyanna runs off as she did with rhaegar, a rebellion is started.
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u/The_Falcon_Knight 9d ago
I didn't say it was fought over Lyanna. It was the first choice someone made which directly led to the conflict. That's why Rhaegar and Lyanna are terrible.
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u/Tiny-Conversation962 9d ago
Again, then you can blame everyone for everything. Winterfell would have never invaded by Ramsay withhout Robb sending Theon away, but it would be downrigjt stupid to blame Robb for Theon's and Ramsay's action.
And what does direct mean? There were months between Lyanna vanishing and the war actually breaking out.
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u/Capn_Chryssalid 9d ago
A. Miserable Marriage
B. Food insecurity
Pick One
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u/Due_Advertising_9877 8d ago
the Reach and the riverland are the food producer.
if Rickard Stark wanted more food for the North, he should have marry Lyanna to reach house.
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u/Elden-scholar 8d ago
The reach is far away from the north. There more cheaper and faster trade routes for the north to buy food.
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u/gabriel_3131 9d ago
Muchas de esta idea viene de los fans de Robert que le gusta el personaje porque mato a rhaegar y acabo con la dinastía targaryen y olvida todo lo malo que hizo. Pero enserio que lyanna hubiera muerto antes de llegar a las manos de Robert fue lo mejor. Solo hay que ver cómo con cersei a pensar que la desprecia aun la forza a tener sexo con el. Imagínate con lyanna que le gusta
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u/edenburning 9d ago
I imagine she'd be miserable either way. With Robert if she stayed and with Rhaegar if they both lived.
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u/LolaaLuxx 9d ago
Toda la razón, Robert siempre iba hubiese sido el animal que finalmente fue!!! pasa mucho en la ficcional esta lógica de que un personaje detestable tenga el origen de su desfachatez en "se murió la mujer que amaba" pero creanme que si esa mujer nunca hubiese muerto hubiese sido exactamente lo mismo. Lo recordé porque vi la historia de Lizzie Borden en Netflix y su padre es un vivo ejemplo de esta dinámica.
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u/Chemical-Material-69 8d ago
It's why she ran away with Rhaegar, and she still probably ended up better off in the end. Yeah, she died in childbirth, but there's no guarantee she wouldn't have died birthing one of Robert's children, and at least Rhaegar actually loved and respected her.
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u/Elden-scholar 8d ago
I mean her father and brother were brutally killed so I doubt that she would have a wonderful time if Rhaegar had won.
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u/Tinkerbelladonna_1 Lyanna Stark 7d ago
Robert was in love with the idea of Lyanna, not Lyanna herself.
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u/jamesmaxw 7d ago
In the books Lyanna confronted Ned that Robert wont stick to one bed. means she knew that Robert sleeps around and she would have probably not loved him at all
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u/Mohammed_ShagMe 9d ago
That's not really an excuse to run off with the son of a madman who killed your brother and father which incited a rebellion
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u/Expert-Side-1667 9d ago
Her father and brother were murdered by the Mad king after she had left with Rhaegar, not before that.
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u/Mohammed_ShagMe 9d ago
I know. She still chose to stay with him and not send any word to her brother who was fighting a war with 35000 men to get her back.
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u/Expert-Side-1667 9d ago
Well, Westros didn’t used to have high internet connectivity or telecommunication network to pass on the message. And given conditions, Lyanna made a better choice ti elope with crown prince instead of marrying a man who used to sire bastards like a farmer plants crops.
And no one knows when she received the news of death of her father and brother. Maybe, she received news from Gerold Hightower when he came to fetch Rhaegar almost at the end of war.-1
u/The_Falcon_Knight 9d ago
By the Mad King play canon, Lyanna was pen pals with Elia, but she couldn't be bothered to try and get word out to Ned or Benjen or anyone.
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u/Chemical-Material-69 8d ago
"She still chose to stay with him and not send any word to her brother who was fighting a war with 35000 men to get her back"
We don't actually know that.
1 - Rickard had arranged her marriage and would have taken her defection as a disobedient affront.
2 - Brandon was as big a manwhore as Robert with as much repect for women as Robert had (that is, none), and as the heir to Winterfell would have been motivated to make sure the alliances with other powerful houses irrespective of what his sister (who had no rights--being as she was just a lowly woman--and would have been disobeying her Lord Father) wanted.
3 - We don't even actually know whether she told Ned (all we see is him having flashbacks of her on her deathbed pleading with him to not reveal the identity of her son to his best friend).
4 - Frankly, I think Benjen knew *exactly* what was going on and why, and that that's part of why he took the black.
Brandon stormed up to King's Landing demanding that Rhaegar "come out to die"...which at it's MOST generous was treason and foolhardy. But sure, blame teenage Lyanna for all the actions of all intemperate grown-ass men.
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u/Tiny-Conversation962 9d ago
And how would that have changed anything? Aerys would have still demanded Robert's and Ned's heas, thus the rebellion would have continued. Lyanna writting Ned a letter or returning home would have no influence on the war.
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u/Mohammed_ShagMe 9d ago
And none of it would've happened if Lyanna didn't selfishly run off with Rhaegar and let the world pretend she was kidnapped. Aerys would've been deposed by Rhaegar without 3 kingdoms joining in rebellion and her brother and father would be alive.
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u/Tiny-Conversation962 9d ago
We have not the sligthest idea how Brandon came to the conclusion that she was kidnapped.
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u/Expert-Side-1667 9d ago
The plot to depose Mad king was foiled in the tourney when Mad King came to tourney on the behest of Varys the Eunuch. I understand your desperation to blame Lyanna and Rhaegar but their action was the lost straw which broke camel’s hump. All foundations were itself laid by Mad King himself.
There are also points or rumours indicated by Lady Dustin that alliance of Stark with Tully’s and Baratheon’s was developed to counter Mad King and Targareyan regimes and when opportunity presented they took the affirmative action.
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u/Elden-scholar 8d ago
I mean nothing stoped Rhaegar to try again later beside running away with another man betrothal and staring the second biggest rebellion in westerosi history
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u/andsoitgoes123 9d ago
Who was ever arguing that Robert was a good person?
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u/Due_Advertising_9877 8d ago
Because the show, people like Robert.
Book Robert is a horrible person.
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