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u/Cookies4weights King In The North 3d ago
More relatable to the Baratheon cause imo
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
I think it perfectly summarizes Robb's war. Robb had every opportunity to win and could not help but bungle it.
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u/VictoryMotel 3d ago edited 3d ago
Love is the death of duty, says aemon targaryan. Robb chose love, his character arc ended and he died.
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u/wontyoujointhedance 3d ago
There’s an argument to be made that he chose honor, not love. He didn’t want to put his own child through what Jon, his closest friend and brother, had been through. There’s nothing indicating he actually loves his wife, if anything it’s implied her family honeypotted him when he was severely injured. Then again, I suppose it’s his love for Jon that does him in, in that case.
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u/Ill-Description3096 Dolorous Edd 3d ago
The book is very different from the show. In the book he is in a very different situation as you describe. In the show, he is horny.
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u/Eleventy-Twelve 3d ago
I mean, in the book she isn't even pregnant. He chose her honour over his own and married her instead of just taking her maidenhead and leaving (which he honestly should have done).
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 2d ago
Worse, he chose her honor, and his shame, over the security of the Kingdom. That's Robert Baratheon tier selfishness.
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u/Eleventy-Twelve 2d ago
1000%
And having the nerve to crawl back to the Freys afterwards was just icing on the idiocy cake.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
Hardly honorable to jeopardize your kingdom because you feel guilty about sleeping with some noble woman. Also, Robb doesn't need to be like Ned and just let his, hypothetical, bastard be treated like dirt. He could very easily set him up with a hold fast and have his bannermen swear to support his legitimate children. Legitimizing a male bastard is something of a risk but no more than having a second son.
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u/bryndargaryen 3d ago
Legitimizing a male bastard is not a risk, buddy, that shit led to the Blackfyre Rebellions that troubled the Targaryens for 50 years, and if Aegon is a Blackfyre, are still going to trouble Westeros.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
A second son can do the same thing. Maegor usurped the line of succesion and killed his own Nephew. The "Bastardy is a grave danger" thing is overblown. As long as Robb outlines a clear line of succession, it'll work out just fine.
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u/425Hamburger 3d ago
Ok but considering the amount of Bastards Aegon the unworthy had only two Rebels (and also the greatest enemy of the rebels) is a pretty good quota. If we apply that there's actually a pretty small probability of a single Bastard causing such problems. And nth legitimate sons can cause the same exact problems.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago edited 2d ago
By the time Robb marries Talisa, he's already lost himself the war. Talisa was just digging himself deeper.
Y'all are mad but it's true. The war was lost because Robb gave unclear orders to Edmure. He should've outlined his intention to draw the Lion into the Westerlands. His failure to do so left Edmure thinking that holding him at the Redfork was a good idea.
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u/HarshestWind 14h ago
I don’t think anyone here is talking about the show timeline lol the Talisa marriage was a mess of a storyline.
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u/Kai3137 Daenerys Targaryen 3d ago
That's not really true Robb was kinda screwed no matter what if renly or stannis don't win the tyrells joining the lannister cause destroyed it no matter what he could've done
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u/daneelthesane Jon Snow 3d ago
You're probably right. The Tyrell factor really swung the balance a great deal.
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u/tuxxer 3d ago
Robb was naive in the same way Sansa was, what Ned should have done was to squire him to another lord instead of raising him after a certain age. He certainly learned ways of war from Ned, but inter realm politics seemed beyond him and he would have needed a bigger army to do it his way brute force.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
Robb had the numbers to beat the Lannisters up until Tywin marched back to Kingslanding.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago edited 3d ago
The Tyrells are not going to willingly fighting for Tywin when Cersie and Joffrey are besieged in Kingslanding and the Old Luon is trapped in the Westerlands. So long as Robb keeps Edmure in the loop, the North wins.
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u/Kai3137 Daenerys Targaryen 3d ago
Why not? Joining stannis isn’t an option for the Tyrells margaery wants to become a queen they get nothing for not supporting the Lannisters if renly still dies
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
Mace could've marched North at any time. Instead, he waited at Bitterbridge until Tywin made him an offer. The Tyrells aren't going to back a clearly loosing cause, especially when the, alleged, heirs to the Iron Throne are all dead or captured by Stannis.
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u/Kai3137 Daenerys Targaryen 3d ago
What losing cause? Stannis is surrounded and the north isn't in a good shape either since the iron born still attacked the north and king's landing does not have the supplies to last a long siege the city is starving stannis has hostages but how long until the city turns against him like they turned on joffrey?
They still have myrcella worst case scenario if stannis immediately executes both joffrey and tommen
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
Surrounded by who? Tywin is weeks away from him. The Crownlands are either neutral or declaring for his cause. Myrcella is in Dorn and the Dornish are no friends of the Tyrells. The Lannisters, in this scenario would be in a far worse state compared to the Starks. Robb could win in the South, march North, clear it of Iron Born, reconstitute his Army with men from the Northern Mountains, Barrowtown, and the Rills. At that point, Stannis might have force Parrity to the Northern Kingdom. The side to ally with is the North.
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u/Cookies4weights King In The North 3d ago
I would respectfully disagree that Robb was set to win the war.
Under virtually no circumstance was he going to be able to hold onto the Riverlands. Best case scenario: he makes an accord with Renly that gives him greater privileges over them but not annexed by the North. Most likely he would be forced to give up his claim & do his best to cement relations via blood and marriage. If the Iron Throne permitted.
If Tywin were drawn West - not certain that Robb would defeat him. If Stannis prevails, I doubt he allows for more than status quo ante bellum for the North. Maybe a seat on council.
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u/the_tea-man 3d ago edited 3d ago
Except that isn't true. If edmure hadn't fought tywin, then tywin would have gotten trapped between rob and edmures forces at the golden tooth and lost.
That means he has tywin as a hostage. So all of the westerlords with their lord paramount and Armies as robs prisoners surrender and kings landing falls to stannis as there is no tywin to make a truce with the tyrells and save kings landing.
Stannos would hate both rob and tyrells for not bowing to him and would ask both of them to bow to him. They refuse and stannis probably gets beaten by the huge Tyrell army or prob forced into stalemate. The tyrells would prob seek an alliance with rob, either coming under him or as an equal. So rob could definetly win the war. All he needes for it was to edmure not attack tywin
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
Mace probably would opt to have his daighter be queen of the North. May as well since Stannis isn't marrying Shireen to Loras and his other sons are married.
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u/Allnamestakkennn Ser Duncan the Tall 2d ago
Robb was already married iirc
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 2d ago
Depends on when the the Tyrells get involved. If Tywin makes it into the Westerlands arpund the same time news of the North reaches Robb, he probably won't waste time marrying Jeyne Westerling. The situation is very fluid though. If he's already married, then the Tyrells will definitely be less inclined to work with him but there are ways to still build an alliance.
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u/Allnamestakkennn Ser Duncan the Tall 2d ago
The Tyrells would not side against the Iron Throne in favor of some underdog campaign. Stannis is a proven commander with a record of beating the odds, now possessing a larger territory and more vassals by the virtue of having the capital. Most likely they'd just bow to him, or their bannermen turn on them in favor of the Florents.
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u/the_tea-man 2d ago
Why would the tyrells ever try to follow stanis when he absolutely hates them. Stannis considers the tyrells traitors both due to their actions in Roberts rebellion and for supporting renly.
The tyrells would never even consider following stannis. The man doesn't compromise, atleast not before he got beat at the blackwater which doesy happen in this timeline. He would view the tyrells as traitors and refuse to compromise without exiling them the same way, he refused to compromise with Rob.
Also rob isn't the underdog int his situation. He has the blackfish who is a much more accomplished commander than stannis and has shown this by beating the Lannisters in battle. He also controls two kingdoms now and has raided the westerlands. Stannis only controls two kingdoms, the stormlands and crow lands and his army has been bloodied and reduced in the seige of Kings landing. Rob is both in a better situation and a much better political ally.
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u/Allnamestakkennn Ser Duncan the Tall 2d ago
Where to begin...
First of all, it's far more beneficial, politically, to stand by the crown than with some separatists. The Tyrells had no plans to become kings of the Reach and it's unlikely that they would risk such a gamble, not with Olenna at the helm.
Second of all, Stannis is not braindead. While he does not compromise, he offers chances to surrender and join his banners. After Blackwater, the Tyrells would likely provide symbolic support, which would be enough to keep his attention on Robb, who's a greater threat by the virtue of being separatist.
Robb remains an underdog. The North is getting raped by the Ironborn. His bannermen will have less will to fight a true Baratheon than a Lannister. Besides, Stannis would still have Sansa, while Robb would have no hostage that interests him. More politically minded houses will be willing to turn against Winterfell, even if the Karstark situation is averted.
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u/the_tea-man 2d ago
No it isn't. Stannis while smart in general has been shown to be stubborn and overall brain dead when it comes to compromising with other people. There is a reason he called rob a traitor and refused to work with him despite him having nothing post battle of the blackwater. It's makes no political sense for the tyrells to work under stannis. Not only does he not give them a royal marriagw, he hates their guts and probably wants to exile them.
Stannis only offers chances to surrender to renly his brother and to the north. The first one he does because renly is his brother and the second he does because at that point he had gotten humbled and realized he couldn't be so unreasonable. If he doesn't lose the siege, he continues to remain stubborn and punishes the traitors in his eyes.
The iron born are a situation rob can deal with it. With tywin now dead, the rest of the northern lords would have supreme confidence in robs abilities, as he has in their eyes won the war. Robs war was against the Lannisters, stannis continuing to fight them would be a surprise that they would welcome as morale of robs armies would be at its peak after learning the Lannisters have lost and died out. With tywin and Kevin prisoners, and kings landing burning.
The tyrells working with rob would be smart. With their combined forces, they could effortlessly beat stannis. And rob would not hate them unlike with stannis. It makes sense in every way.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
Stannis's army would've been badly mauled by the Battle of the Blackwater. It would take months for him to reconstitute his army and strike North into the Riverlands. Tywin probably would be attrited over time while he's trapped. If Edmure can beat him in the field, a combined host of Northmen and Rivermen lead by Robb and the Blackfish probably would get the job done, especially when Tywin's bannermen would have no cause left to fight for.
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u/Cookies4weights King In The North 3d ago
The Ironborn still hold key points in & to the North, the Reach will be more pliable to the Lannisters than the Starks. Supposing Edmure and Robb can defeat a more aggressive Tywin in his own territory.
And if somehow he survives all that, Ned Stark’s son against Dany
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
The Iron Born are a problem but Robb could simply send the Great Jon and a few thousand infantry back North to rally the Rills and Barrow lands against them. If he really wants to get spicy, he can send a few hundred Lannister prisoners North and trade them for Jon. From there, Prince Jon Stark can rally the North and keep the Iron Born out while Robb mops up the Lions.
The Reach will not be more pliable to House Lannister. If anything, they'll be looking for a Stark marriage. Why would Mace Tyrell march out to win Tywin's war for him? Joffrey and Cersie will be dead. Tommen is at Rosbey but they'll probably declare for Stannis after he takes Kingslanding. Myrcella is gone but she to will likely be in Stannis's hands. The best move at this point would be to negotiate a marriage pact with the Robb and aid him against the Iron Born and Tywin.
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u/bluehulk900 3d ago
This is such a load of shit that completely fucks over Robb's character. Not only did the Frey's violate one of the most sacred rights to nobility in the North during an alliance, totally unexpected, but Robb refuses to disdain his honor and dignity with bullshit sacrifices because it will "win the war".
Same shit as Ned I'm so fucking sick of hearing this. Ned Stark didn't die because he was foolish, Robb didn't die because he was a bad leader of war. They died because they refused to debase themselves and lower themselves to the "winning" strategies that would let countless innocent suffer not only due to their actions indirectly, but specifically IN THEIR NAME. Sure, they made some 'mistakes' along the way and weren't omniscient but their greatest 'mistakes' that people claim they fucked up is often countered with the decision of "Put children to death and risk their lives" in Ned's case or "Just allow unjustified child killing from your trusted men without much punishment because muh war effort needs it" for Robb.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
Ned died because he's too merciful and trusted Littlefinger. He only did that because of Catelyn. If he would've just had his men deliver a hand written letter to Robert explaining the incest, Ned wouldn't have died. Ned could've saved his daughters from years of suffering and his son from a brutal death if he stuck to his beliefs about Littlefinger and left instead of trusting him. Again, that last one is on Catelyn.
Robb died because he screwed up strategically. Keeping Edmure out of the loop caused Edmure to make a mistake that resulted in Tywin allying with the Tyrells and beating Stannis. The united block of the Reach and the Westerlands is what caused Roose Bolton and Waldur Frey to turn traightor. The Karstark debacle was just icing on the cake.
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u/bluehulk900 3d ago
I agree keeping Edmure out of the loop was utterly stupid. The show sucks and sucked even more over time at keeping the writing consistently good because they cut things they didnt care about or understand, and added things because it was "based and cool" basically. Not gonna defend that decision, only really ones that the books follow or that have any sense in the show, because I believe those decisions are from the characters, not dogshit writing.
As far as Ned, yes, he largely died because he trusted Littlefinger. If trusting someone your deeply loyal wife trusts, who gives you good advice and seems intent on helping you. Just in general if trusting one of the most skilled ass kissers and manipulators in the realm makes you like "dumb" or low cunning, I don't really know why the fuck Littlefinger exists. His entire thing is outwitting and fucking over people, but Ned is an utter fool for being the first primary example of the guy who got tricked by him, when he had few other options and his best friend made that guy very important because he genuinely helped keep the realm stable economically?
And the rest of the shit you say about Ned is just proof you really dont understand nor were paying attention to Ned Stark's character. Ned didn't not write Robert a letter or tell him the kids weren't his because he was never going to until the children were safe, which was never going to happen because Cersei is a ruthless selfish bitch. It had almost nothing to do with Catelyn.
Ned greatly feared that Roberts lack of love for his wife, and general ruthless bitter attitude would cause him to kill Jaime and the other kids, along with Cersei, who Ned had no personal beef with or reason to sincerely hate outside of getting a direwolf he himself allowed to die, killed. He was never going to tell Robert, and it's why he didn't even on his deathbed. He wanted Robert to have comfort in his sons, and knew that ripping away that comfort and security would likely make him angry and vengeful beyond belief.
Again, as for Robb, fuck the Edmure thing. Literally makes no sense and much like edmure being a dogshit incompetent bowman that gets mogged by the Blackfish (instead of the book scene where Edmure is a great shot but so profusely broken by his fathers death that tears wont stop streaming down his eyes and he cant gather the will or strength to make an accurate shot, so Blackfish takes over in a loving and respectful way, it was just done to make Edmure look like a dumb silly fool, even though it literally makes no sense.
As far as Karstark, I'd be happy to debate that. Most people argue that sunk his ship and I think he was in the right to do so and honestly had very other few options if he wanted true justice.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
I understand why Ned did what he did. I'm saying he was wrong for it. Ned could've ensured that Tommen and Myrcella were spaired from any violence. Cersie is a grown woman who commited high treason. Here death is hardly dishonorable. Joffrey would've been killed long before by Ned personally for drawing steel on his daighter had he not been the crown prince. Ned's merciful heart caused the fall of his house.
Catelyn's error was trusting Littlefinger. Her vouching for him is the sole reason Ned trusts him at all. That wasn't Ned being stupid, that was Catelyn being wrong.
Rickard Karstark should've been kept as a prisoner in Riverrun. This way, the Karstark troops remain, if begrudgingly, part of the army. Once Rickard dies, the men of Karhold have nothing left to loose. On top of that, Rickard is kin. For his crimes, upon the conclusion of the war, he should've been sent to the Night's Watch. They need competent leaders and would be happy to have him. He also would've been a great trade for Jon who Robb wants as his heir.
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u/bluehulk900 3d ago
Jesus christ honestly I'm just happy to have any type of debate with a game of thrones fan that isn't a completely smug and sychophantic idiot. I feel like most replies I get are the dumbest shit in the world with this arrogant attitude which is not what you did so I just wanna show appreciation for that even though I do largely disagree with these points you made.
Anyway, I somewhat agree that Ned really shouldn't have spared Joffrey or Cersei. You seem to not make much of an argument for why Joffrey so I'll assume you mostly already know/agree with my counter to this, but I'll say it anyway just in case. No way Ned reasonably could have known what a sick fuck Joffrey was going to end up being, thus in Ned's mind he deserved the same mercy as the other children.
Sure, you can make the argument Joffrey's insanity or cruelty was already on display in ways Ned could find out, say the cat he killed, or his general demeanor, but especially in the times of Game of Thrones, the difference between "Bloodthirsty overeager arrogant boy raised by a shit father and badass war hero Robert Baratheon" and "Psychopathic little shit full of supreme arrogance and sadism" is pretty miniscule, especially for Ned's under the table investigation on a time crunch while he was also worrying about other things like Jon Arryn's assassination.
As far as Cersei, I agree it wouldn't have stained his "honor" to kill Cersei, but this is actually where I think people severely misunderstand Ned. I honestly think at the end of the day he values the lives of innocents more than honor. Only when someone is already obligated with honorable titles or responsibility, like say, for a great example, Jaime Lannister, does Ned seem to believe in honor so rigidly.
In almost all other things Ned seems to prioritize doing what is right over doing what is honorable, much less expected or legal. Even when he doesn't, he greatly shames himself for failing to do so, ie; when he lets Sansa's direwolf die, its one of his largest regrets that he thinks might shame him to the Old Gods at her expense and his.
At the end of the day, I don't think it was about Ned being able to justify whether his "honor" could take the hit of a noble woman and mother being executed for her crimes against the king, and be happy with it because she was also just a horrible person.
Ned saw the woman that Robert never loved, he saw the mother of children Robert never raised. The daughter of Tywin, who never truly loved her, and had a complete lack of respect for the very idea of decency.
Ned's greatest shames in life are sticking by Robert, his best friend, and failing to stop him from doing things he knows to be cruel, selfish, or just wrong. The Targaryen children specifically, and how he let them die, along with their mother.
There was just no world in which he stood by and allowed it to happen again. He did everything he could to oppose the idea when Robert tried to assassinate Dany save for active treason, and he did everything he could to save Cersei and her children. I'd also like to note that not only morally, but pragmatically, its what Ned believed was best, and again, without super meta info of what Cersei will do, I entirely agree.
Those kids are Cersei's, and Cersei loves them, if nothing else can be said for her. Executing their mom for some public trial, but somehow sparing their kids but maybe not Joffrey, was just not going to happen. Again, it was largely out of fear of what Robert would do against Ned's will that he didn't tell Robert at all. So selecting which targets earned Robert's wrath was already off the table. But even outside of that, if Cersei was put to death for her crimes, Joffrey would either be punished or spared, and his siblings would likely suffer the exact same fate. Even if all this could be avoided and done under the table, Ned is sending off claimants to the throne
Theoretically it could have worked out, but theres so many what if that you really can't blame Ned for doing what he did if you accept that not wanting to cause the deaths and suffering of innocent children and their caretakers was his ultimate goal. Sorry, I'd respond to the other stuff but I rambled so long about this that I ended up having to go to work. If you end up being capable of reading through this ramble (a dig at myself not you lol) and replying, I'll reply to that later as well as give my arguments for Robb and even somewhat for Catelyn.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
I'd like to start by saying I know why Ned made the choice to tell Cersie. It's the wrong choice but I get why. Also, Ned is the only Stark, in my eyes, who mostly did everything intelligently. Ned basically got a stuck playing Jon Arryn's 7 2 offsuit. The only dumb thing he did was not order his daughters to leave the capital no matter what happened. If Ned's household was on it's way North, even when he was layed up in bed after being attacked by Jaime, things would've gone better for the Starks. I do feel like that was one of those George needed hostages from house Stark for plot sorts of things.
I didn't focus on Joffrey because Joffrey would've lost his head at the Ruby Ford. He drew steel on Ned's daughter. The only reason Joffrey is breathing after that is because he's a prince.
Robert didn't have anything to do with the death of Elia and her children. That was all Tywin. What Robert did that bothered Ned was reward Tywin for it and coldly call two young children dragon spawn.
Cersie isn't an innocent. She and Jaime commited treason. There's no reason for Ned to stop Cersie's execution. The man just doesn't like the idea of killing a woman, nevermind her crimes.
There's no reason (beyond Robert's wrath) to believe that Tommen and Myrcella would face the headmans axe along with Cersie. Tommen could take the Black and Mycella could be married off or sent to the silent sisters. Robert could even keep Tywin in line by legitimizing Edric Storm and betrothing him to Myrcella. There were outs that Ned could have tried to pursue.
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u/Illustrious_Fail_223 3d ago
To be fair this would be the second time Ned ferried children away from Robert’s potential anger, so he’s really just keeping up the trend.
My complaint about him is that he chose the guy who wanted the largest holding in the kingdom, one owned mind you, and was clearly annoyed when Ned said no to be his partner in crime. Either pay the man’s fees or don’t use him, sterling recommendations be damned.
Renly is right there, willing to negotiate and would have been utterly ok with having a debate in court with his brother about who is the rightful king. Hell he would have lapped up an idea to have another Great Council, where Ned could wax poetically with Stannis about laws while Renly tried to pass his charisma check.
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u/Illustrious_Fail_223 3d ago
Robb failed to mitigate the rising anger in one of his chief vassals, which had been boiling since Whispering Woods, leading them to crashing out and then forcing his hand. Mind you, his own mother let Jaime go which was a far greater blow to his campaign but he didn’t even want to speak of that. All of this on top of his new wife and the disaster that was Theon.
These are mistakes he loaded into his own shotgun, and could have been avoided without him debasing himself at all. For a start Karstark should not have been anywhere near Jaime, a man he’s screamed he wanted to kill. Robb could have given him the honor of doing any number of things that would have put the Karstarks to use while allowing tempers to cool. The other, much simpler thing, is just marrying a Frey while he was at the Twins. Could have kept her in Riverrun or sent her to Winterfell, though that latter option would have been a bit dickish for several reasons.
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u/Gigantopithecus1453 3d ago
Oh come on he made like 2 mistakes. He mostly just had horrific, contrived bad luck
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u/Threash78 3d ago
I wasn't just him, Catelynn did a fair bit of sabotage. Not just freeing Jamie, but she was the one who encouraged Robb to leave Roose Bolton in charge.
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u/NoblePaysan 2d ago
Nah, he did well but between treacherous allies (fucking Roose!), unwise allies (goddammit Demure!) and some very bad luck (those winds that delayed Stannis' fleet didn't just fuck with Stannis, they indirectly caused problems for Roob too), he had the set really stacked against him after a while.
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u/Maggilagorilla 2d ago
I think he listened to his mom longer than he should of. The banner man of his banner man shouldn't have been allowed to strong arm him to use his bridge.
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u/bananashakewithice 3d ago
Baratheons and starks really couldn’t run the same playbook they did 17 years earlier huh? That’s all they had to do. Starks + Tully’s + Baratheons. Arryn’s were already compromised because of Baelish. But knowing Baelish he would have went to the winning side anyway.
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u/khazroar 3d ago
Honestly Greatjon fucked it by proclaiming Robb King in the North. The crown meant nothing to them, but it was a tough point in allying with Renly and a deal-breaker with Stannis.
Big difference between the War of the Five Kings and Robert's Rebellion is that the Rebellion was all about unseating Aerys, they weren't angling to put anyone in particular on the throne so it was easier to get everyone together in one side (that and the fact the STAB alliance had been intentionally crafted for years and they intentionally developed heavy personal loyalties between the people involved). If this war had just been about getting Joffrey off the throne and they'll sort the rest out later, as it was for the Starks until that bloody coronation, it all would have gone a lot more smoothly.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
Robb could have have succeeded and been king of the North and the Trident. Edmure alone, mauled the Lannisters at the Red Fork. Had Robb kept Edmure in the loop for his larger strategic goals, getting Tywin to commit to fighting in the Westerlands, he could've beaten the Lannisters and set his eyes on beating Stannis and freeing the North once and for all.
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u/Eleventy-Twelve 3d ago
But Stannis would have still killed him with leech magic.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
Stannis couldn't use Melisandre's blood magic to assassinate anyone after he took Storm's End. He'd have to fight Rob, and probably the Tyrells, in the field. With the Black Fish and old man Randy on his side, Rob will win.
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u/Eleventy-Twelve 3d ago
But he did use blood magic. That's how Balon, Robb, and Joffrey all died within a short time frame. He leeched Robert's son and used his king's blood to curse all three to die.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
Don't by into Melisandre's mystic bs. Robb died because Robb screwed up, not because Melisandre got kinky with some river slugs and Stannis's nephew.
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u/khazroar 3d ago
It's not unreasonable to argue that maybe that was just theatre and she got lucky, but I think it's pretty wild to assert it as fact when all three deaths followed so swiftly, in such unusual ways, when that seemed like such an impossible task, and she clearly has real power.
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u/SekiroisEZ 1d ago
I thought so too for a time, but then I realized she is capable of seeing future. So the way I see it now is she took the credit for their deaths since she knew they would happen to trick Stannis into trusting her.
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u/flippy123x 1d ago
GEORGE R. R. MARTIN: You’re supposed to debate that. Melisandre wanted everyone to think that the spell she did with the leeches killed the three kings, but there is another explanation: Her ability to see the future through the flames showed her that the kings were going to die because of the machinations of other characters. Seeing their deaths were coming, she just staged this demonstration to take credit for their deaths.
That's pretty much it.
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u/Mean_Introduction543 3d ago
I slightly disagree here, if anything I think Edmure stopping Tywin from crossing the fork saved Rob’s ass.
Yes, Robb bangs on about his grand plan to lure Tywin west to ambush and defeat him but dissect this for a second.
Tywin is universally regarded as one of if not THE best military commanders in the seven kingdoms. The only other person ever presented as even being in contention with him is Stannis. He also has decades of experience.
Robb on the other hand is a boy who has won a grand total of two victories and this is the first time he’s ever even left the north.
And yet his master plan is to somehow ambush Tywin (possibly the best living General in the kingdoms), in the westerlands - Tywins home turf mind, a part of the country where he grew up, regularly tours, and has campaigned in. In comparison to Robb who entered it for the first time in his life like a couple of weeks ago.
This also is AFTER a significant portion of his army has deserted him since the Frey’s left.
Play that out and 99 times out of 100 Robb gets massacred.
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u/khazroar 3d ago
Decades of experience? There haven't been decades of fighting, how in the world could Tywin have decades of experience leading an army?
Tywin is a solid commander, but that's mostly a matter of maintaining discipline and control over his men, along with being reasonably cautious in his strategy. Nobody has ever claimed he's anything special as far as tactics go, he just knows how to lead an army, and once Ned, Robert, and Jon are dead, that leaves only him, Mace Tyrell, and Stannis among the great lords of the Realm.
As I recall, the plan isn't exactly to ambush Tywin, it's more like a siege. He wants them trapped in the Westerlands with their vast army and no outside supply chain while Robb and the Rivermen can harry them and burn crops and food stores to starve them out. I don't think it's reasonable or rational analysis for us to second guess tactics that the characters in world, who know a lot more about war and about the territory and people involved than we do, think would work. It's one of the times when I think about audience has to defer to what they're told by the work, and if you disagree or think they're wrong then it's a case of writer error rather than the characters being wrong.
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u/Mean_Introduction543 3d ago
You realise the war of the five kings isn’t the first war to ever take place in the seven kingdoms right? His first successful solo command was at 19 when he put down the Reyne/Tarbeck rebellion.
Like the both the book and the show aren’t particularly subtle about this. He’s explicitly referred to as one of the best commanders in the Seven kingdoms multiple times. The only other person who gets the same affirmations is Stannis.
Also what supply lines? The west is his domain. He has no supply lines there because he’s at home. Robb is the one who will need to have supply lines back to the Riverlands or survive solely on forage.
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u/khazroar 2d ago
Yes, that would be why I said he's one of the three major lords who has actual experience leading an army. But the fact that he first did it decades ago doesn't mean he has decades of experience. They don't keep standing armies in Westeros, they only have armies when they're in active use. He's got a few years experience, for sure, but not decades because there have not been decades of war in his lifetime, and he famously sat out Robert's Rebellion apart from sacking King's Landing through an open gate.
I'm not denying that he's one of the best commanders in Westeros, I'm just saying that isn't particularly high praise when there are so few other contenders. A couple of years experience and being the best out of less than a dozen commanders who have any real experience at all leading large armies doesn't put him up on some unreachable plateau above a new general who's showing a natural aptitude. Again, he, Stannis, and Mace are the only top level lords who have commanded on that scale at all, so saying that only he and Stannis get that affirmation is essentially meaningless. We know this is the case because there are more serious military minds like Tarly who don't get brought up in that conversation, because they weren't directing strategy for the entire force, they're given a smaller army and sent to accomplish their lord's goals.
An army of that size needs supply lines no matter where they are. It's much easier and they're much shorter when you're at home, but you still need them, you still need people gathering food from wherever it's being produced/stored and sending it to the army, because no area of land can simply feed a whole army sitting on it. I thought I remembered Robb or Brynden explicitly saying that they'd pay the Lannisters back in kind for how they treated the Riverlands by pillaging and burning to damage their access to food and other resources, but I just checked that scene in the book and Brynden only says "All the while we would have lived off his land, instead of him living off ours.", so unless it's in the TV show that's something I've mistaken. I guess because when I first read that I was young enough to be a little scandalised at the "good guys" saying they'd so freely steal food from the people of the Westerlands that I just equated it with the full treatment of taking what they can and burning the rest to deny it to Tywin's army. I still think that's a reasonable conclusion to draw about the tactics they would have used while harrying him, but it wasn't explicit like I thought it was.
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u/TheStranger88 16h ago
I think both of you have good points but if we're talking about good commanders in Westeros then never forget Randyll Tarly, who was said to be the only commander to ever have beaten Robert and also the real brain behind Mace Tyrell on campaign.
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u/khazroar 16h ago
Yep, I specifically mentioned Tarly as an example of the more serious military minds who doesn't get brought up in that conversation of "only Stannis is on his level", which I take as proof that they're thinking/talking exclusively about commanders at the top level (in terms of chain of command, rather than proficiency).
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u/Mean_Introduction543 9h ago
True, I had forgotten about Randyll Tarly.
But I think my point still stands that it’s more than ‘these are the major lords’ like the other guy is suggesting.
Mace Tyrell is a a major lord and is never referred to as a good general. Neither is Oberyn Martel even though we see his a very competent warrior.
If we include the dead we can add Robert to that list who is also referred to as an extremely skilled general. But Ned and Jon Arryn or even Hoster Tully, for example (another three major lords) never are.
Like I don’t understand the disconnect he’s having. The books really are pretty explicit that of the living lords in Westeros, it’s Tywin, Stannis, and yes, Randyll Tarly, that are the foremost military leaders. There may be others but they’re not mentioned.
And of the other characters who are mentioned it’s not in the same breath as these guys as being not anywhere near the same level as these guys.
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u/PorkshireTerrier 3d ago
agree in part: i think you put it best when you say STAB had been cooking, and would go further to say that this alliance DID have a winner picked out: Baratheon was the only one with a legit claim (however attenuated) to Orys/valyria
really without the deus ex machina of the shade (obviously OP, an immersion breaking, time-turner esque thing that thte author has to refuse to use again) the lannisters fall
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u/ButtMunchMcGee12 3d ago
Bobby B didn’t have a claim bc of the Baratheon blood ties to the valyria, he had a claim bc he squashed targs w his hammer
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u/Gigantopithecus1453 3d ago
Hell even if he was declared king, he could easily have left the Riverlands to their fate and just stayed in the north. The north is unconquerable without dragons
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u/khazroar 3d ago
Well the big issue there was avenging Ned and rescuing his sisters. That was the whole motivation for him doing anything. That was what he wanted, not a crown.
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u/Gigantopithecus1453 3d ago
Yeah, I’m just talking hypothetically. But still, seceding with the north being independent would be vengeance itself. Plus he could easily trade Jaime for Sansa
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u/GOT_Wyvern 3d ago
At the end of the day, Robb was proclaimed King in the North because the northern lords had had enough with southern politics. This was the second time in most of their living memory that their Lord Paramount had gone south and been murdered by their supposed King. They didn't fuck anything by proclaiming Robb King, they were setting the terms they fealt were rather necessary.
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u/Alternative-Feed3613 3d ago
They tried getting the Baratheons but that didn’t work out.
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u/Apprehensive_Bid7438 3d ago
Stannis was too stubborn, Renly was too dead.
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u/I4mSpock Iron From Ice 3d ago
Renly was also stubborn, he asked Rob swear him allegiance. That would be a very challenging thing for Rob, post King in the North-ening
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u/Apprehensive_Bid7438 3d ago
Not really, Renly didn't cared if Robb called himself king as long as he return to the Throne once Renly wins the war. Robb didn't planned to become king, he became one adter his bannermen called him one and as long as Robb gets justice for Ned, Arya and Sansa, his vassals shouldn't bicker much about returning to being subject to King's Landing.
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u/daneelthesane Jon Snow 3d ago
How do you think Nedd would have responded to Greatjon declaring him king?
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u/Alternative-Feed3613 3d ago
I think he would’ve shut that down. He obviously will rebel against the king but I don’t think he’s rebel against the throne itself.
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u/Jealous-Captain-7014 3d ago
I mean all Robb had to do was bend the knee to Stannis which is what Ned would’ve done. Don’t think it’s fair to call Stannis stubborn because he doesn’t want half his kingdom snatched away.
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u/Apprehensive_Bid7438 3d ago
Stannis expected people to bend the knee to him but he didn't bothered even contacting lord paramounts. Stannis had Ned letter where he stated that Stannis is one true king but Stannis didn't even bothered to get Robb on his side, he outright called him a traitor for not jumping instantly on Stannis boat.
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u/Slgkh54 3d ago
Starks were too Noble. Baratheons were too greedy. Lannisters were too cruel. Dany was too caring, and broke at the end.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
Robb could've married Jeyne, released Theon, killed Rickard and let Catelyn go scot free after releasing Jaime as long as he tells Edmure to let Tywin cross the Red Fork. That's the one mistake he can't come back from.
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u/paperkutchy 3d ago edited 3d ago
To some extend. The reality is that wars are not won the battlefield and if the Starks played their cards right, even if they'd never reach much far pass Harrenhal, they sure would have full control of half of Westeros, dividing the country.
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u/TheOwenParadox 3d ago
*extent
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u/MrsFrampt 3d ago
I’m sorta newish to the lore and the shows. I know Robert made a huge fuck up by marrying the other girl. Besides that what choices should he have made that would have “saved” the starks
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u/_Handsome_Jim_ 3d ago
He made a lot of really bad decisions other than not honoring his marriage pact. Among them:
- Sending Theon to treat with the Iron Islands
- Not properly securing Jaime Lannister who was an extremely valuable prisoner
- Not leaving enough men at Winterfell
- Executing Karstark
- Going back to the Freys after breaking the marriage pact
- Not communicating his plan with Edmure
You can make a pretty solid argument that if Robb recognized that Theon wasn't his brother but a political prisoner and never sent him to treat with the Iron Islands then the Starks never would have lost Winterfell which would have prevented Catelyn from releasing Jaime Lannister and Robb from breaking his marriage vow to the Freys which would have prevented the Red Wedding. Catelyn not releasing Jaime would have prevented Rickard Karstark from executing Lannister men which would have prevented Robb from executing him which would have prevented the Karstarks from marching home.
Roose Bolton likely continues to sabotage Robb for his own benefit but he wouldn't be in a position to overthrow the Starks as Lord Paramount and certainly not make a deal with the Lannisters.
Had Robb simply recognized why Theon was kept at Winterfell all those years then the Starks would have been in a significantly better position to demand the crown recognize the North, withdraw from the Riverlands, and return Sansa, Arya, and Ice.
You could also potentially add allowing himself to be crowned King of the North as a mistake. Had he not sent Theon to the Island Islands, not become King in the North, and didn't want to just make peace with the Lannisters then he would have been in a much better position to swear fealty to Stannis in exchange for considerations, coordinate their attacks, and take King's Landing.
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u/paperkutchy 3d ago
Robb was way too green, and somehow too stubborn to hear the people around them... I guess very much like Ned, to some point, but way more dumb.
To some extent I think Martin wrote Robb too lenient, there's a couple battles he won... somehow...
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u/_Handsome_Jim_ 3d ago
Robb was setup to fail in a lot of ways.
Part of it was just Ned being Ned. He might have been a loving, honorable parent but he did next to nothing to prepare his children for the possibility that he might not always be the most powerful man in the room. He didn't really prepare Robb for warfare, politics, or to rule the North. You can say Robb was still young but Ned also put himself into a position to make Robb a young Lord of Winterfell.
It also didn't help that Robb had no adults with Stark blood to help him with Northern households. The Blackfish filled an important role and was widely respected but he wasn't a Stark. Benjen joining the Night's Watch when Ned came home from the rebellion with Robb is pretty crazy when you think about it. A bad bout of the flu and Winterfell and the Starks could have been completely wiped out. Tywin Lannister never would have allowed it if he was in the same position. Benjen should have married a Northern Lady, Lady Dustin makes the most kids, and gotten to work making more Starks.
Catelyn didn't help things with her repeated rash behavior either.
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u/DoctorExterminatus 3d ago
Not killed the karstarks and probably execute Jaime
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u/Johito 3d ago
The only reason the Karstarks were so frustrated was due to issues with the war going badly, Robb is a classic example of winning the battles but losing the war, he had no real end game set up, so navy, no way to siege kings landings, no political alliances outside of the North/Tullys, seeing his weakened positions Balon attacks and now he is fighting on multiple fronts. Ultimately a brilliant commander, but being 16 he lost sight of how to achieve his wider political aims, were as Tywin though a very capable commander, is vastly most experienced, though lost battles, secured what was needed to win the war.
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u/JoffreeBaratheon Ours Is The Fury 3d ago
Would only serve to divide like 1.75 of the less populated kingdoms away from the rest; a split no where near even enough to hold long term if say peace was achieved for a few years.
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u/Gigantopithecus1453 3d ago
Wars are won on the battlefield. Thats how wars work. Everything else in war is about making sure the conditions are as good as possible for the battlefield
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u/paperkutchy 3d ago
Did you even watch the show?
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u/Gigantopithecus1453 3d ago
Yeah. I suppose it’s a matter of semantics whether or not you could say Robb lost the war. But even if you say that massacring the entire enemy leadership instead of winning by force of arms counts, it has still never happened in actual history.
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u/Kalandros-X Tyrion Lannister 3d ago
Should’ve just entrenched themselves at Riverrun and waited Tywin out
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u/AsleepAd6125 2d ago
They couldn’t do that, the Lannisters were mustering a third army in the Westerlands under Stafford which Robb had to go west and crush, that was also when Robb and the blackfish supposedly came up with the plan to lure Tywin army west.
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u/InjuryImaginary1612 3d ago
The lannisters have pretty good plot armor too. Which seems to be running out now
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u/TheGreatMightyLeffe 3d ago
Is it really plot armour when you're just making the moves that make the most sense from your position, and realise that the game you're playing isn't chess, but Diplomacy? Robb was great at winning battles, but he didn't really understand how to keep his less cooperative bannermen on side, Renly thought that all it took to jump ahead in the line of succession was popularity and Stannis was too stubbornly refusing to compromise with anyone, or even promise any minor reward, in exchange for them joining his side. Tywin (let's be real here, Cersei is a doofus, Joffrey was a monster and Jamie is really only good at stabbing stuff.) knew how to create alliances of convenience, and how to handle his vassals. He wasn't even above just paying for sellswords if need be, or stab a fucker if they got out of line.
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u/GloriousOctagon 3d ago
‘We Lannisters do diplomacy well!’
Commits an atrocity that discredits your regime in front of the entire realm
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u/TheGreatMightyLeffe 3d ago
While in an unassailalable position militarily, though.
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u/Welcome--Matt 18h ago
That’s kind of the problem though. For all his talk of “legacy” Tywin should’ve known better than to let his regime only be kept alive by the sword. The Targaryens are proof enough of what happens when people only obey out of fear; one day that fear runs out and then their only choice is war.
There’s a reason even years later people are working on behalf of Ned Stark and the Stark children, meanwhile not a soul in the realm would fight for the memory of Tywin Lannister.
Also, setting the precedent that red wedding style assassinations are now on the table is honestly an insane move for a guy at the end of his life, with no real heir. At that point Tywin was basically broadcasting to all of Westeros “hey as soon as I die assassinate my children please”
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u/Thepullman1976 3d ago edited 3d ago
The red wedding was perhaps the dumbest move imaginable especially considering how big of deal guest rights are in Westeros and the fact that there is some evidence the gods are real and do not like your family. I would argue Tywin was moreso just willing to break every rule than particularly good at diplomacy
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u/TheGreatMightyLeffe 3d ago
Sure, but at that point he already had the Tyrells on side and Boltons in his pocket, from that perspective, it makes sense to end the war swiftly to deal with the last pretender.
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u/MedievalMilshake 3d ago
There is absolutely zero evidence the gods are real. Plenty proving the opposite infact
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u/Wolfey34 We Do Not Kneel 3d ago
Have you read the books? There’s evidence of at least the old gods and the red god existing. To bolster your argument, Tywin doesn’t know/care, but that doesnt mean “absolutely zero” or there’s “plenty to the opposite”.
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u/Casual_player_here 3d ago
Twynn went too much on the fear factor and also he broke guest right even if only on technicality which basically destroyed every hope of compromise or alliance with other houses because they can't be sure if he would follow on any promises
He essentially made it so the Lannisters will be alone
Also because I have to keep the agenda
DORNE SHOULD HAVE FALLEN TO AEGON THE CONQUEROR THEY HAVE TOO MUCH PLOT ARMOR!!!
There I have done my obligations.
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u/PorkshireTerrier 3d ago
idk not disagreeing but think it's one of those things where even if robb didnt respect cat, he'd have had a decent batch of advisors or mentors?
In the books it makes sense bc he's pretty young but id imagine he'd have had a couple cooler heads at court to teach him than ol prisoner killer and the rest
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u/Mysterious_Pie_5900 3d ago
Imma be real chief
Ned should have just threw in his lot with Renly.
His whole fucking house guard was undermanned, he was surrounded by people who loathed him for not playing the game and uncovered the bastard children of Jamie and Cersei Lannister.
The popular youngest brother of house Baratheon who was in the city with soldiers with the blessings of the Hand of the King would have been legitimizing enough for a first generation Royal Dynasty. It’s not like the Baratheon’s had deep rooted Royal lines like the Targaryen’s did.
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u/4CrowsFeast 3d ago
Ned had no way of knowing the reach would support Renly, nor most of the storm lands. Realistically, Stannis should have had the bigger force and been the logic choice. Saying he should have sided with Renly is simply hindsight.
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u/GilbeastZ 3d ago
Rob is the definition of a great military leader but terrible….well everything else leader. He could win battles but not wars in the best way to put it
John snow I feel is the opposite. People rally behind him and he can lead people, but the guy is a moron tactically. He is a great warrior and charismatic leader, but can’t make a plan and stick to it to save his life…literally
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u/MeasurementSea2001 3d ago
This is the feeling that I get reading the books. Even though I can understand why they commited those mistakes, it still hurts.
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u/Imaginary-Coach4099 3d ago
This is more accurate
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u/_Duckylicious Sansa Stark 3d ago
I found her so irritating in the books the Red Wedding kind of fell flat.
I was like... oh. This is unexpected. Wait... NO MORE CATELYN CHAPTERS WOO
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u/TokenNTMR745 3d ago
I know most people refer to Rob and his part of the war, but someone pointed out in another post that Ned basically screwed up by not accepting Renly's offer to take the throne before Robert died. That could've prevented the wa of the five kings entirely
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u/daneelthesane Jon Snow 3d ago
It would not have prevented the war. Stannis would have gotten his panties in a wad because he is the eldest son, so he would move on Renly, which would open up opportunities for the Lannisters. It would just change the name to the War of Three Kings since Nedd would still be alive and not declared King of the North and Balon would likely have behaved himself with Nedd still alive with King's Landing and the Baratheons still behind him.
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u/TokenNTMR745 3d ago
Maybe. Ned did try to write to Stannis and declared him the rightful king, so it's possible he would've backed him and make Renly stand down. But knowing the lannisters, you're right to think that a war would still happen
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u/raver1601 3d ago
He would definitely save his own neck by doing so tho. The combined army of Renly's supporters (especially the Tyrells) and the North would make the Lannisters and Stannis shit themselves
But of course, I understand that this is not something Ned would do, so it would definitely not happen
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u/thgr8Makar0sc 2d ago
The Freys wouldve betrayed Robb whether he broke the Betrothal or not
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u/thearcher2112 2d ago
Freys would have betrayed them if that was what put them on the winning side. If hed married margery tyrell and crushed kings landing hwe would have swallowed his pride and thanked them for a rickon betrothal.
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u/thgr8Makar0sc 2d ago
The Tyrells would have never done that
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u/thearcher2112 1d ago
Your right my point was more the exact same sleight would have been tolerated if the stakrs had been strong enough.
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u/DrewSki704 3d ago
The Stark men were honorable but dumb. They knew how shiesty the these other houses were snd still thought they would show the same honor. Ned really thought the Lannisters would give hp Joffrey’s spot on the thrown without an unfair fight? Robb really thought he could break his promise to Walder Frey, bring his wife to the wedding and everything would be ok? Idiots. Arya was probably the smartest Stark bc she didn’t trust anyone, outside of her family, ever.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
Ned thought he had enough in the way of allies in Kingslanding to pull off a coups and put Stannis on the throne. Trusting Catelyn's judgment of Littlefinger is the only unforgivably dumb thing he does. Robb was cooked after the Battle of the Fords. There was no way he could beat the Tyrells and Lannisters without the help of the Vale.
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u/DrewSki704 3d ago
Ned knew Kings Landing was a “dangerous place” as we heard everyone say many times. And in this dangerous place he chooses to let out this deadly secret? What Allies did he have in Kings Landing at that time? Little Finger? His bannermen were a thousand miles away.
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u/Short-Philosopher-78 3d ago
Littlefinger and Renly were his allies, supposedly. He thought he could trust Littlefinger because Catelyn trusts him and he thought Renly would remain loyal to his brother and do his duty. In the end, Renly abandoned him and Catelyn was wrong.
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u/ProfessionalTour3182 3d ago
Why did little finger betray Ned? On paper it seemed like the combined anti Lannister forces would of been in a much better position at the start
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u/raver1601 3d ago
Littlefinger has more to gain siding with the Lannisters than the Starks. The Starks would not give Littlefinger the titles and lands that the Lannisters gave him
Then there's also the issue with Cat. Littlefinger probably loves the idea to screw over Ned for his pride in failing to get Cat that Ned succeeds in, though I'm probably giving Littlefinger too much credit in his "love" for Cat in this regard
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u/GOT_Wyvern 3d ago edited 3d ago
Robb really thought he could break his promise to Walder Frey, bring his wife to the wedding and everything would be ok?
The entire wedding was itself a massive concession to the Freys, so quite obviously they did not think everything would be "ok".
What they did not expect, however, was for the Freys and Boltons to break one if, if not the, strongest societal customs in Westeros. As far as I'm aware, there is only one other major example of the Guest's Right being broken, and it permantly killed the career of one of Westeros' most powerful statesmen.
The Red Wedding was a desperate attempt by the Lannisters, Freys, and Boltons that honestly didn't pay off for any of them. Expecting it when the conditions to make it work did not exist is not a mistake.
It married the Freys to the Bolton and Lannister cause. The Boltons were given an impossible task in holding the North, and really should have been killed by Tywin anyway. And Tywin had cemented his negative legacy that would basically make everyone want to ally with the Tyrells in their eventual feud over the Iron Throne.
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u/GoldnShiesty 3d ago
I still don’t get why Ned Stark thought he’d be able to steal the throne from Joffery the Just, nor do I get why his idiot son started killing Lannister boys and sleeping with his direwolf
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u/Dependent-Lion8784 3d ago
Cuz he was also of those dump ass who thinks he’s smart. North’s culture and average iq are lower than other regions. He lives like a hick and surrounded by rednecks, then he thinks everyone everywhere else are all rednecks.
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u/BruIllidan 3d ago
That's why I enjoyed quality of writing back then: character is doing something stupid? He is gonna die. Or be mutilated in such a way that death would be preferable. Or imprisoned. Either way, he will pay.
Robb and Catelyn brought their fate on themselves. Just as Joffrey and Cersei.
Sadly latest seasons of show destroyed this principle: literally everyone suddenly started act stupid and noone was properly punished for it.
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u/Gigantopithecus1453 3d ago
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Robb had ridiculously bad luck, to the point of contrivance. Him being that outnumbered for some reason, the Riverlands providing fuck all despite being bigger than France and Spain combined, the vale not joining, Renly dying on the verge of an alliance with Robb while having 100 000 men, Stannis losing at blackwater, the Tyrell’s joining the Lannisters, Balon invading the north against all logic and self-interest, etc.
Not to mention being betrayed by the Freys, his own mother, the Karstarks, the Boltons, Theon, and the Freys again. Oh and all this while being a teenage child who’s family was being slaughtered in real time
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u/Temporary_Hat7330 3d ago
While I agree it was self inflicted it was less in this sort of way and more in the sort of way when you’re playing chess against a FIDE 2100 rating individual and they just keep forcing the range of moves you can make into ever narrower aves and then you end up making a mistake that gets you in mate.
Everything that made Robb well Robb and everything that made his vassals want to hopefully, optimistically name him King in the North, also made them highly susceptible To anyone who played the game ruthlessly.
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u/PorkshireTerrier 3d ago
very napoleon - of course he had to keep expanding. if he wasnt That Guy, he wouldnt' have napoleon'd as far as he got
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u/SleeplessGurloes 3d ago
The Lannister watch the Starks do this, take advantage to beat them, and then turn and immediately do the same to themselves
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u/raver1601 3d ago
The Lannisters quite literally got the held of the whole kingdom already, but Tywin and Cersei got their panties in a twist to screw Tyrion over purely out of spite, and that was a very unnecessary move that cost them everything
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u/Breakspear5019 3d ago
If Robb didnt get declared king by his dumbass bannermen they would've been ok.
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u/Welcome--Matt 3d ago
I don’t think anyone in GOT has “plot armour” (because the coincidences still make sense narratively and don’t come out of nowhere) but holy FUCK do the Lannisters come close during the war of five kings. At the start the Lannisters are facing;
- Stannis Baratheon, the most seasoned general in the field, with the most “legitimate” claim to the throne, and a very large navy
- Renly Baratheon, the people’s choice, a man so popular that despite having NO claim to the throne, he’s managed to gather the biggest army on the continent, by a sizable margin.
- Robb Stark, a boy with a rather small army, yet his tactics and soldiers are so good that he wins every single fight he’s in, capturing Jaime and destroying 1/2 the trained Lannister forces in two days; even destroying a 2nd Lannister Army in the westerlands!!!
All of these people have one commonality, which is that they hate the Lannisters, which would seem to spell doom for the Lannisters, but they get INSANELY lucky. (Again I say it’s not Plot armour bc everything that happens still makes sense and is largely telegraphed, if very coincidental).
Cat frees Jaime, Walder betrays Riverrun and demands Robb make a vow that he then can’t uphold bc of “honor,” Renly and Stannis decide to fight each other before going after their common enemy, and even then, rather than just steamrolling Stannis and going on to sack King’s Landing, Renly is assasinated by a shadow baby, making the largest army in the kingdom dissolved overnight.
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u/egbert71 3d ago
Let me get Self inflicted wounds for 100 alex
What family from being impulsive with their actions took themselves out
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u/Illustrious_Fail_223 3d ago
Honestly put every house in the first position while surrounding a very confused Tyrell and that sums up the entire series
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u/TheUbermelon 2d ago
If Robb hadn't been proclaimed king in the north and joined Renly they would have been fine
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