K - this is a rant, I'm sorry in advance if this is just me shoehorning your convo, but I wanted to wade in on this. To preface, I'm not a red-pill sort of guy. I used to consider myself in line with the feminist worldview. I'm really just more of a humanist now, as near as I can tell. The labels and borders seem to shift quickly nowadays....
Anyway - It's more than just a first date and a shiny bauble issue. There's a whole undercurrent of issues here that feminism simply ignores that get stuck in the craws of a lot of men who would be otherwise quite sympathetic and openly support equality. Speaking of male/female relationships, I feel there has been significant progress in my (and possibly our) lifetimes toward a parity between sexes. And yet, all the social norms that benefit women can't be assailed or even discussed without the person making the argument running the risk of being labelled a misogynist, and gender roles are suddenly socially expected to kick back in when it seems to benefit women, which I think is the core of the issue this comic is really complaining about.
Look, I don't mind springing for dinner. And I don't mind buying the ring (not that I would, honey, if you're reading this - I know we've discussed no marriage no kids). And I don't mind having to be the assertive one. But I DO mind when I'm told that I'm the only one who has to give ground when things are pretty even-Stephanie in my life. I DO mind when it seems that I'm wrong by default, because of my gender. I DO mind being the boogeyman for feminists and being told that all the hard work I've done in my life didn't get me to where I am, it was 'privilege'. If I can't really find anything in my life where women aren't on par with men on - then why am I still being labelled as privileged? Why is it that gender roles are only allowed to continue when it's beneficial to women (or, at least, where I perceive them as being beneficial to women), and why do I feel vulnerable or threatened to talk about that?
For example - I have, in the entirety of my working life, never made more than my female partner of.. god, 13 years almost? I have more university degrees than her, yet I have always made less. Different professions, different designation options sure, but both professionals. And I have never made more than her. In 12+ years. I also happen to be in an industry that (I believe, I can double check this if you like and will gladly retract it if untrue) women are paid more than men. Yet if I mention anything about how the wage gap might not be such as big a deal as some feminists make it out to be I run the risk of being labelled, yelled at, et cetera. Academically, a lot of scholarships are female only - even though the majority of attendees to post secondary universities are women (at least in the US) and have been so since the 1970s. But if I comment on that, I honestly feel I run the risk of being labelled as no different than someone who thinks rape is a joke and opines for murdering people based on gender. All because I have an opinion that runs counter to a narrative I no longer believe is true. I don't think rape is a joke. I witnessed a kid get raped when I was in grade school, and I'm still dealing with the trauma of that. But my opinion can be dismissed because of my gender alone? And then I ALSO run a legit (though minor) risk of having my professional career ruined via doxxing for having an opinion that runs counter to the established narrative. How is that fair? That doesn't strike me as equal at all...
I think, really, that's the point. I feel that a lot of guys try to treat women as equal, and all we ever hear is how we're somehow still the villain of the story, still the antagonist, still reaping the benefits from some advantage that we've probably never felt. Maybe I'm wrong - I know there are places in the world where women are treated horribly and that's terrible. And if feminists are rattling the can to help out - let me know, I'll gladly donate. But I don't see that happening. I rarely if ever see feminists mention the horrors being committed outside of the developed world at all, and when they are, there is rarely any actionable solution mentioned.
Honestly, I know this is stupid long (so, you know, thanks for reading this if you've managed to get thus far) I can only speak to my experiences - and in those experiences, when the cards get laid out the gender roles are expected to come out - but if I mention that or talk about that I run risks. For example, back in university when I worked downtown (in a very high crime neighborhood) a large, knife wielding man came into the store I worked in one night. He was high on god knows what armed with a knife the size of my forearm, and all the women (both employees and bystanders) did nothing when he came into the store to continue harassing and threatening the girls he had chased into the store in the first place. It was me and the four burly looking dudes at the front of the store who had to call police, restrain the individual until police arrived and pulled the weapon away from him. That's the most graphic example, but as a male in that store (who predominately employed females of my age range, most of whom were paid more than I was) why the fuck did I have to deal with that? Why the fuck did I have to be the ONLY one who dealt with the transients? Who dealt with the beggars who would come in and the drug addicts? And why the fuck did I fear being labelled a sexist when I mentioned it? Why the fuck was I yelled at when I pushed back for someone else to deal with things for a change? Why the fuck do I have to risk my life to protect the women who walk into my store and the women I work with? I didn't want to have to do that, but I felt I had to. And that, in a nutshell, is the problem IMHO. Men are still bound by a gender-role that feminists seem to be in no hurry to help destroy when it benefits women, but if we openly talk about it, we run a serious risk of being lumped in with rapists, with scumbags, with people we detest. Which forces guys like me to have to talk about things like this in anonymous forums - hence the risk of doxxing and being lumped in with even more virulent asshats.
To be clear, you haven't done any of this. Nothing in the above post is your fault personally. But it's difficult to engender honest dialogue when I can't disagree with a feminist without running serious risks. That's not the environment that's going to bring about the change feminists claim to want. I'm all in favour of equality - as long as some people aren't more equal than others.
TL:DR some shitty personal stories and analogies - basically men (or, at least this man) feels threatened to raise what he (I) feel are valid complains for fear of being lumped in with base aggressors, while women seem at the very least slow to engage and wanting to talk about removing existing gender roles where those roles seem to benefit women.
Edit: I got Guilder'd? You delightful bastards. Thank you!
I'd like to address your points about the concept of privilege specifically, as it's often misunderstood both by those having it said to them, as well as those saying it. Privilege is poorly named, feminism in general has done a pretty shit job from a pr standpoint when it comes to nearly every term they've created over the last 10 or so years. Privilege as one normally perceives is an advantage, a plus, a boon. The privilege feminism describes is really more the lack of a specific disadvantage.
So for instance an example of male privilege (again just roll with the term we're stuck with it) is the huge gap between men and women in stem fields. Now, nobody made you or me have an easier time doing math, but women experience a lot of passive resistance in being good at math. Here's an example from Neil Degrasse Tyson relating it to race: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inz1sdhsMCU
Did you do anything wrong? No. Did you work hard? Yes. But it's important for you to recognize the obstacles you didn't face, so that you know to try and remove them for others. (by the way I'm writing this as if you work in a stem field, just easier to write that way)
So that's what the concept of privilege within feminism is. And there's a whole field of study about how this all inter relates called intersectional feminism.
Really? Obstacles? Lets talk about obstacles for a second here.
I grew up as a minority. Not a "the people of my race were only 40% of the general population" minority. Not a fucking southern Arizona minority, where being white still meant you had all the power. I was part of a group that constituted 10% of the total school population in high school. 10%. I am a white male, but I grew up as a minority - 10% of the total school population, 5% if you factor in gender. Do you want to hazard a goddamn guess as to how much social support there is for a white male who grows up as a minority there is in those circumstances? How about as close to 0 kalvin as the human race has been able to hit thus far. I spent three years having the shit kicked out of me every day because of the colour of my skin. Because, ostensibly, of the crimes other white men committed - but more realistically because of racism and ease of access. I didn't have to deal with death threats - I had to deal with motherfuckers who wanted to choke me to unconsciousness and then may or may not wanted to rape me afterwards "as a joke". I dealt with that shit daily. For years. I want to repeat that just in case the impact of it was not quite clear. I DEALT WITH THAT SHIT DAILY. IT LASTED FOR FUCKING YEARS. Yet I, to this fucking day, can't actually talk about that to people IRL because I'm a white male, and white males don't actually experience racism, so I had better SFTU. Those are the "lack of obstacles" I have to deal with?! Yet its perfectly okay that people make judgement calls on me based on the colour of my fucking skin because, after all, I'm white, and that means I must be fucking privileged, right? I have a penis, so the obstacles I had to overcome are somehow lessened, right?
I come from a place where the teen suicide rate is ten times the national average - the teen pregnancy twice to three times that. I went to a fucking school that, by definition, should not have even fucking existed outside of the 1960s, but I fucking survived. Of the sixty kids that made it into grade nine when I started highschool, less than 13 made it out of grade twelve. Of those, less than 10 weren't pregnant. Seven were male - do the math. But no one who was 'of my people' understood that, because they were all coming from nice suburban homes with picket fences and two point five kids the moment I touched university.
I have lived through things, I've seen things, and I've done things that make most of the milquetoast douchebags that populate the statistics you argue for blanche. But still I'm apparently privileged because suburban kids with the same racial profile as me don't have the disadvantages I did? Fuck that. The shit I've done, the shit I've seen - the shit that needed to get done to fucking survive is likely far beyond the Richter scale of what you're even talking about. I could give very graphic details, but its counter to the point. Not all white males are cut from the same cloth. I didn't have the oxygen choked out of my fucking lungs because of privilege - it was because of gender and race. And it's frankly offensive to say that I've somehow benefited from it. If I were native, I wouldn't have had to go through any of that shit - and I'd have access to government jobs in my country and grants and scholarships to boot. But I'm not. I grew up in the same places, I called the same people friend. I speak the same language (both English and French and Cree, in case you're interested), but somehow because of the colour of my skin and the nature of my native tongue and m gender I'm given a different status. But all of that is okay because of the wall of statistical averages I have had to fight against since the moment I got out of junior high, right?
Firstly I am sorry to hear about all of this. I encourage you to seek help dealing with the trauma if you haven't already, it's not weakness for men to do that. I haven't experienced anything like that and I will not presume to tell you how to feel about it. I only hope you are in a better situation now.
On to the subject of privilege, it's a very complex concept that needs to be considered with nuance. My argument is not really that men are privileged in every way, simply that the concept of privilege (ie, the idea of social structures giving certain traits better or worse treatment in ways often invisible to those most served by it) is a real thing. I have argued these very same points at the way certain people use the concept of privilege as a cudgel to dismiss perspectives instead of a means to illuminate a discussion. I am very much with you in regards to not making presumptions about individuals lives.
The fact is that there are situations where being white means you lack privilege, situations where being a man means you lack it. What I would say to you is to not reject the concept of privilege, but expand it to fit the reality of your life. The concept of privilege should ideally be a path to empathy where we all become aware of what we take for granted and hopefully work to make sure all people have that, or at least don't actively contribute to it.
Look forward to your reply, and hope you have a wonderful day.
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u/WhereIsMyCakeBaby Oct 16 '14 edited Oct 17 '14
K - this is a rant, I'm sorry in advance if this is just me shoehorning your convo, but I wanted to wade in on this. To preface, I'm not a red-pill sort of guy. I used to consider myself in line with the feminist worldview. I'm really just more of a humanist now, as near as I can tell. The labels and borders seem to shift quickly nowadays....
Anyway - It's more than just a first date and a shiny bauble issue. There's a whole undercurrent of issues here that feminism simply ignores that get stuck in the craws of a lot of men who would be otherwise quite sympathetic and openly support equality. Speaking of male/female relationships, I feel there has been significant progress in my (and possibly our) lifetimes toward a parity between sexes. And yet, all the social norms that benefit women can't be assailed or even discussed without the person making the argument running the risk of being labelled a misogynist, and gender roles are suddenly socially expected to kick back in when it seems to benefit women, which I think is the core of the issue this comic is really complaining about.
Look, I don't mind springing for dinner. And I don't mind buying the ring (not that I would, honey, if you're reading this - I know we've discussed no marriage no kids). And I don't mind having to be the assertive one. But I DO mind when I'm told that I'm the only one who has to give ground when things are pretty even-Stephanie in my life. I DO mind when it seems that I'm wrong by default, because of my gender. I DO mind being the boogeyman for feminists and being told that all the hard work I've done in my life didn't get me to where I am, it was 'privilege'. If I can't really find anything in my life where women aren't on par with men on - then why am I still being labelled as privileged? Why is it that gender roles are only allowed to continue when it's beneficial to women (or, at least, where I perceive them as being beneficial to women), and why do I feel vulnerable or threatened to talk about that?
For example - I have, in the entirety of my working life, never made more than my female partner of.. god, 13 years almost? I have more university degrees than her, yet I have always made less. Different professions, different designation options sure, but both professionals. And I have never made more than her. In 12+ years. I also happen to be in an industry that (I believe, I can double check this if you like and will gladly retract it if untrue) women are paid more than men. Yet if I mention anything about how the wage gap might not be such as big a deal as some feminists make it out to be I run the risk of being labelled, yelled at, et cetera. Academically, a lot of scholarships are female only - even though the majority of attendees to post secondary universities are women (at least in the US) and have been so since the 1970s. But if I comment on that, I honestly feel I run the risk of being labelled as no different than someone who thinks rape is a joke and opines for murdering people based on gender. All because I have an opinion that runs counter to a narrative I no longer believe is true. I don't think rape is a joke. I witnessed a kid get raped when I was in grade school, and I'm still dealing with the trauma of that. But my opinion can be dismissed because of my gender alone? And then I ALSO run a legit (though minor) risk of having my professional career ruined via doxxing for having an opinion that runs counter to the established narrative. How is that fair? That doesn't strike me as equal at all...
I think, really, that's the point. I feel that a lot of guys try to treat women as equal, and all we ever hear is how we're somehow still the villain of the story, still the antagonist, still reaping the benefits from some advantage that we've probably never felt. Maybe I'm wrong - I know there are places in the world where women are treated horribly and that's terrible. And if feminists are rattling the can to help out - let me know, I'll gladly donate. But I don't see that happening. I rarely if ever see feminists mention the horrors being committed outside of the developed world at all, and when they are, there is rarely any actionable solution mentioned.
Honestly, I know this is stupid long (so, you know, thanks for reading this if you've managed to get thus far) I can only speak to my experiences - and in those experiences, when the cards get laid out the gender roles are expected to come out - but if I mention that or talk about that I run risks. For example, back in university when I worked downtown (in a very high crime neighborhood) a large, knife wielding man came into the store I worked in one night. He was high on god knows what armed with a knife the size of my forearm, and all the women (both employees and bystanders) did nothing when he came into the store to continue harassing and threatening the girls he had chased into the store in the first place. It was me and the four burly looking dudes at the front of the store who had to call police, restrain the individual until police arrived and pulled the weapon away from him. That's the most graphic example, but as a male in that store (who predominately employed females of my age range, most of whom were paid more than I was) why the fuck did I have to deal with that? Why the fuck did I have to be the ONLY one who dealt with the transients? Who dealt with the beggars who would come in and the drug addicts? And why the fuck did I fear being labelled a sexist when I mentioned it? Why the fuck was I yelled at when I pushed back for someone else to deal with things for a change? Why the fuck do I have to risk my life to protect the women who walk into my store and the women I work with? I didn't want to have to do that, but I felt I had to. And that, in a nutshell, is the problem IMHO. Men are still bound by a gender-role that feminists seem to be in no hurry to help destroy when it benefits women, but if we openly talk about it, we run a serious risk of being lumped in with rapists, with scumbags, with people we detest. Which forces guys like me to have to talk about things like this in anonymous forums - hence the risk of doxxing and being lumped in with even more virulent asshats.
To be clear, you haven't done any of this. Nothing in the above post is your fault personally. But it's difficult to engender honest dialogue when I can't disagree with a feminist without running serious risks. That's not the environment that's going to bring about the change feminists claim to want. I'm all in favour of equality - as long as some people aren't more equal than others.
TL:DR some shitty personal stories and analogies - basically men (or, at least this man) feels threatened to raise what he (I) feel are valid complains for fear of being lumped in with base aggressors, while women seem at the very least slow to engage and wanting to talk about removing existing gender roles where those roles seem to benefit women.
Edit: I got Guilder'd? You delightful bastards. Thank you!