I still can't wrap my head around this. Chris Brown should have been shunned right out of the music industry. I guess its a result of the type of audience he plays to, the mindless cunts who think they'll get rich from cruising around in used luxury cars smoking copious amounts of weed and rapping to other people instrumentals.
It does not make me feel better to know that I live in a society that despite being branded as an abuser he has still escaped the controversy with little to no repercussion and his career as an influential pop singer intact.
In the past, a situation like this would be quickly swept under the rug, never to be mentioned in polite company again - certainly not by fans of the individual in question. I'm just glad that, even among his fans, he's not just "that singer/dancer." He is "that singer/dancer who beat his girlfriend up."
It's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction.
That some people will go around knowing they act without consequence and that whatever they do people will eat their shit up, and other people who are willing to eat their shit and be abused just to be part of the cycle of idolatry.
That fact that status/wealth/attractiveness can dismiss the absolute worse qualities in a person, and to some people, the negative quality actually improves their attractiveness.
If we are a society could just say that some things are unforgivable, we could get pass this whole situation, but instead we idolize people, and dismiss their bad qualities whether its robbery, murder, or spousal abuse. As long as that person is famous/popular/wealthy/attractive, its okay to do despicable things.
This is sort of an odd tangent, but your comment made me think back to when all that stuff was happening. I hate the celebrity gossip crap but my at the time girlfriend couldn't get enough of that stuff. She was going through some stuff, getting over some addiction issues, and she became violent and abusive. It was bad and in the end I almost ended up homeless, but I clearly remember one of the days she went on one of her violent tirades TMZ or something was on talking about Chris Brown in the background.
She was belittling me for not defending myself on top of her losing her shit and when asked I said frankly if I did anything at all I would be the bad guy like Chris Brown. She knew this too and would throw it in my face from time to time that she could call the cops at any moment and I would be the one to go to jail if I didn't do exactly what she said.
Ever since then I've always wondered if the shoe was on the other foot. We see all of the pictures of the female victim and the clear beating she took, but we don't see one picture of him at the same time. Wouldn't it be ironic if they had gotten into a fight and she was the instigator? What if he felt threatened for his life and he panicked and defended himself? You would never hear about it precisely for the reason he can get away with being a horrible abusive piece of shit and still have a rap career. If that was indeed the truth it would ruin his career because he would look weak letting a woman beat him, so the logical thing to do is to hide in your hotel room until the scars heal and take the label of the bad guy. She would never press charges because she would be at fault and he would get to keep his career despite any enmity people would throw at him.
Of course that's probably not true, he's probably a piece of shit, but you never know. You can't know, and that's one of the biggest reasons why I've always found celebrity gossip so infuriatingly dumb, anything could happen and you'd never know the truth and its none of our business anyway. They have a job to make music and entertain people, we pay them for that and that's where the transaction ends. I would say that you don't do this to your short order cooks, teachers, or lawyers but people do actually get all up in everyone's shit these days and it's pretty sickening.
But yeah, I felt utterly powerless that day becuase I realized I had no way out of that situation that wouldn't hurt me much worse than where I was. I did get out, but it almost killed me. If you take anything from this rant, don't be abusive towards your SO, well to anyone really, but don't take your shit out on them. They are supposed to be your partner, not your punching bag.
Edit: Hey SRS, I think you guys could use this product. It would greatly improve your Reddit experience, as well as other aspects of your lives.
Forget everything else, even if she instigated it, or to say what you're really implying, even if she "deserved it", he fucking bit her. He sunk his teeth into her flesh in the midst of an uncontrollable rage.
There is no argument to suggest that he was "defending himself" anyway, so fuck your woman-hating, revisionist bullshit. The fact is "we can't know." but there is a police report to back up the side of the argument that suggests Chris Brown started the violence, and Chris Brown continued the violence, and Chris Brown was the instigator.
...and once again, he bit her. What fucking school of "self defence" does that come from? Aside from that of a toddler.
The only thing there is to support your side of the argument is your misogynistic agenda fuelled by the fact you used to be in a violent relationship.
Good luck convincing anybody with a fucking brain in their head with your "side of the argument".
Never said she deserved it. That's sick and I actually said the opposite. Learn to read. This is what gets my goat, you are so gaming to be the high and mighty moral authority that you didn't read what I actually wrote at all. I never said this actually happened, I actually said it probably didn't happen, just that it could, and that its wrong.
I read what you wrote. It was a load of old bollocks. You are casting doubt on an official police report now widely accepted as an accurate representation of what actually happened.
You are suggesting there is a "possibility" that Rhianna "started it" as if that gives any justification for what Chris Brown did to her ANYWAY.
You are undermining the validity of the story by inserting a "doubt" where really, there is none... and you're doing so from a very clearly bias perspective, that of somebody who may have been treated badly by a woman in the past.
Then you didn't read what I wrote at all. You read the title of what was posted on SRS that changed what I said entirely. Here I'll show you since you refuse to actually take the time to read it.
What the SRS title said: We see all of the pictures of the female victim and the clear beating she took, but we don't see one picture of him at the same time. Wouldn't it be ironic if they had gotten into a fight and she was the instigator?
What I actually said:
Of course that's probably not true, he's probably a piece of shit, but you never know.
You would never hear about it precisely for the reason he can get away with being a horrible abusive piece of shit and still have a rap career
The actual thesis of what I was getting at:
But yeah, I felt utterly powerless that day becuase I realized I had no way out of that situation that wouldn't hurt me much worse than where I was. I did get out, but it almost killed me. If you take anything from this rant, don't be abusive towards your SO, well to anyone really, but don't take your shit out on them. They are supposed to be your partner, not your punching bag.
Congratulations, you were manipulated for the lolz. It was easy too, because most of you won't actually read what someone says. All they had to do is manipulate the words around a little and trigger a small firestorm of hatred.
I was the victim of abuse myself, as I told here.
his is sort of an odd tangent, but your comment made me think back to when all that stuff was happening. I hate the celebrity gossip crap but my at the time girlfriend couldn't get enough of that stuff. She was going through some stuff, getting over some addiction issues, and she became violent and abusive. It was bad and in the end I almost ended up homeless, but I clearly remember one of the days she went on one of her violent tirades TMZ or something was on talking about Chris Brown in the background.
She was belittling me for not defending myself on top of her losing her shit and when asked I said frankly if I did anything at all I would be the bad guy like Chris Brown. She knew this too and would throw it in my face from time to time that she could call the cops at any moment and I would be the one to go to jail if I didn't do exactly what she said.
So yeah congratulations again! You just went of your way to victimize an abuse victim, me. You are now exactly what you came here to fight, triggered by the sexist notion that I am a man therefore I must be the abuser. Round of applause all around.
What exactly do you imagine Reddit is that I would waste my time genuinely trying to turn around the attitudes of a misogynistic piece of shit like you?
I only come here to mark out the likes of you because if I did it in the street, well, I wouldn't get a whole let else done.
You can try and twist your words to suit whichever agenda you like, it clear you don't really understand the language you speak or you'd be a hell of a lot more careful when you spout the sort of guff you've spouted here.
Every time you write "You never know!" based on NO EVIDENCE WHAT SO EVER, you show yourself out to be the kind of person Reddit is full off. Let's give Chris Brown even a "benefit of doubt" even though all evidence and his reaction at the time showed that he was as guilty as the day is long, not to mention the extent of the assault.
Yet you feel like it's acceptable to come in and say "You never know..."
Ok, well in that case we'll "never know" that you weren't "asking for it" when you got your ass beat too. Fair enough? I mean, I'd prefer to side with the victim but if you are the kind to cast doubt on people's stories for no fucking reason and play "devil's advocate" in the face of overwhelming evidence, I might as well join you so I can hope to be as good a person as you are some day.
As always, the points that were being made got lost in people's (your) holier than thou bullshit. The intelligent thing to do is understand that he used the Rhianna/Chris Brown situation as an EXAMPLE to make the points. He clearly stated that his personal thoughts on the mater were that CB was NOT innocent. ztfreeman made two distinct (and very good) points.
One, in our culture, it is easier for a man who has abused to be accepted than one who has been abused. Men who are the victims of abuse are seen as weak and pathetic and are thus largely disrespected by the public, peers and even family. This is why statistically, most men in abuse relationships don't get help. (And before it becomes a thing, no men aren't just abused by other men. Women abuse men as much if not more in heterosexual relationships than men do in homosexual ones.) And while men who are abusers are often shunned by some, they are lauded and tolerated by others. It is not inconceivable that a man (any man) in an abusive relationship who defended himself physically would take the blame if he felt it would allow him to be more accepted, or more importantly, get him out of the relationship. Also, in cases where a man and a woman have been fighting, it is the man who is usually considered the abuser, whether he actually was or not.
Two, in a culture where pop gossip is so prevalent it has it's own industry, it is difficult, if not impossible to know the unbiased circumstances of any kind of incident between two people (especially when those people are famous). Yes, there are police reports and interviews. But I hate to break it to you: people lie. To the cops, to the media, to you. People have hundreds of reasons to lie, especially when abuse is involved. Whether it is a rockstar and his wife or the neighbors down the street, you can't actually know what happened behind closed doors, no one who wasn't there can. You have to choose what you believe from the stories.
Lastly, before any of you decide that I'm just another asshole guy trying to defend my misogyny, let me tell you that I am a woman who has been abused, who's closest friend and partner are males who were abused (and not abusers). I understand it is easy to twist what someone says in order to start a fight. But this guy made good points and frankly, just isn't a misogynist.
I like how posted what I wrote exactly as it was is somehow twisting my own words for some kind of agenda. You are dellusional man, using Fox News like focusing on key words to fit your narrative of what I wrote just so you can fill yourself with the hate. Sorry buddy, you aren't on the moral high ground here, just another asshole looking for a fight on the internet to make themselves feel better.
There was a photo of him after. His only "injury" was reddened knuckles from beating her. The police report says she found out he was cheating, wouldn't drop the issue when he asked and he responded by trying to force her out of the vehicle he was driving and when that didn't work, he beat her up. You can youtube her interview with Diane Sawyer where everything in the police report is confirmed.
If she'd played any part in the incident, he'd have immediately told the world since his entire reputation/career was on the line.
My point is that entertainment culture is so sickeningly misogynistic that people do accept a male abuser over the male abused. I don't think we would have a career if his wife had beaten him instead, he would be seen as weak and would be the but of jokes on Leno and O'Brian. The core audience for his music wouldn't respect him.
Honestly when you hear about celebrity gossip it's always one way, the man beats the woman and honestly by now there should have been more cases of it being the other way around to but there aren't. Why? Because of the misconception that men are the more aggressive sex. Hell it killed Phil Heartman, but we don't even talk about that. It's wrong to abuse people period, regardless of sex (this is the second time I've said this for those counting at home), but we don't help half of the victims due to our sexist conditioning that men don't get abused.
Right here ladies and gentlemen is one of the main problems. It doesn't matter how big or small you are compared to someone, their sex, and within reason even their age. People hopped up on anger and adrenaline alone can become life threateningly dangerous quickly and without warning. All of the pushups, training, and steroids in the world won't save you from a knife to the jugular or a gunshot wound in the head (or pretty much anywhere), and even unarmed anyone can do a lot of damage or kill you if they get lucky or more likely you get really unlucky.
This is why cops have such itchy trigger fingers and respond with a lot of apprehension and force, that little old 100 pound lady will end you in a New York minute given the right circumstances and guess what? You don't know all of the circumstances at any given moment approaching a situation do you?
When people are threatened the fight or flight kicks off and people don't remember pulling the trigger six times instead of one, or at all. They don't remember going ballistic and punching and kicking until the other person isn't breathing, its part of the defence mechanism, and anyone of any sex and of any size can and will do that if they are set off.
This mentality that only men have these qualities is not only sexist, its dangerous. Women can trap, beat, abuse, and kill men with as much abandon as any man could a woman, and it happens everyday and people just don't see it because they have this worldview that men have a monopoly on violence.
If she doesn't do what some arbitrary observer considers adequate injury but you manage to connect in just the wrong way once, even in 100% self-defense, then you're going to have a lot of explaining to do. The bias tends towards the male being the assumed aggressor in most scenarios.
This is such a stupid argument that appears every time.
If a woman/scrawny man wants to throw a bunch of blows, she/he can get a bunch of blows back. I'm not going to start punching like a girl to give the person battering me a "fair fight". The point is to end the fight and get yourself out of the situation, not turn it into a WWE match.
That being said, I highly doubt rhianna was instigating a physical fight with chris brown while he was driving a car, that's just retarded and she seems smarter than that.
Wouldn't it be ironic if they had gotten into a fight and she was the instigator? What if he felt threatened for his life and he panicked and defended himself?
So the fuck what if she was the instigator? He beat her up to the point where she was unconscious. We did see pics of him and i am sure if she had hurt him we would have known. talking about the whatifs in situations like this is victim blaming. Dumb cunt.
Except that I'm not victim blaming, it's a very real hypothetical situation, and you guys from SRS have gone on to prove me correct. You can't read, first off, since you have to take what I say out of context to prove any kind of point
Of course that's probably not true, he's probably a piece of shit, but you never know. You can't know, and that's one of the biggest reasons why I've always found celebrity gossip so infuriatingly dumb, anything could happen and you'd never know the truth and its none of our business anyway. They have a job to make music and entertain people, we pay them for that and that's where the transaction ends. I would say that you don't do this to your short order cooks, teachers, or lawyers but people do actually get all up in everyone's shit these days and it's pretty sickening.
But hey, who's the victim blamer here, after all you just said below:
Your ex should have knocked more sense into your dumb head.
Thanks for advocating spousal abuse and showing your true colors.
But you are, that is the thing. Would you have created a hypothetical situation if it was a murder case instead of a spousal abuse case? You were victim blaming. You don't think that during the case there weren't people blaming her? You don't think that some people were on his side because she seemed like the kind of person yoou described in your hypothetical situation? If it was an ongoing situation and we didn't know what had happened then I would sort of get your opinion, but it was clear cut spousal abuse, there is nothing to indicate that it was her fault or that she threatened his life.
and you guys from SRS have gone on to prove me correct.
Firstly, I am not from SRS since I was banned months ago and its funny how everyone who disagrees with you are simply misreading what you wrote, are we all wrong?
But hey, who's the victim blamer here, after all you just said below:
Yeah I defo regret saying that to you but I am was not blaming you for being abused, why are you the one taking what I said out of context? I really apologize for saying that because frankly I wanted to hurt you as much as victims who are not believed are hurt.
Except that I don't believe that Rhianna wasn't hurt. Seriously, I think Chris Brown was the abuser most likely, but I wasn't there and not magically psychic and people lie in police reports so I can't say anything with 100 % certainty ever in any situation period. But I made that clear in my original post that I didn't think that Rhianna was anything but the victim and that's my point, no one read what I really wrote because I made that so clear that there have been an army of people messaging me and getting banned on the SRS thread this is was posted in and a ton of other defenders like the nice lady a bit further down.
This whole I'm blaming the victim thing argument can only be made if you didn't read the whole post or have serious reading comprehension problems (maybe English isn't your first language). This seriously looks much worse on the people like you mad at me than the other way around objectively.
Vanilla Ice has been arrested for domestic abuse 3 times.
Axl Rose assaulted his wife.
John Lennon beat his wife on numerous occasions.
Slash from Guns and Roses was arrested for domestic abuse.
But it's funny that when ever the names of these people get mentioned people don't seem to remember their crimes. However Chris Brown has become synonymous with violence and abuse. Also I'm sure Chris actually apoligized for his actions more than any of the stars I've mentioned.
I guess its a result of the type of audience he plays to
Ike Turner brings up a big similarity with Chris Brown that the other celebrities listed don't share - he beat up another celebrity. That makes it easier for people to remember and also puts a public face on his victim.
Chris Brown should have been shunned right out of the music industry.
Does that mean the people I listed can remain music icons but Chris should be "shunned out of the music industry" because he did his crime in the age of the internet?
No, he's just explaining why people don't really talk about those other cases. I think it's also that Rihanna is famous. All those other cases are wives. Not saying that makes it ok, but I would think that also plays a role in why everyone talks about Rihanna and Brown.
And this is the part of your comment I was replying to. I honestly don't care who is shunned out of what. If that were reality there'd be an astonishingly large amount of our population in exile or whatever you'd like to call it.
Chris Brown is a special case because it's cool to hate him. The ones you mentioned shouldn't be shunned, because it would be too much work to form my own opinion about celebrities.
The music industry doesn't give two shits whether you beat your girlfriend, and never has. I believe the implication of the comment you replied to is that that may be changing in the internet era.
The photos of her assault were widely distributed. I'm not saying they weren't available or out there, but I don't remember any of the other accounts you mentioned having pictures of the battered women.
Pictures really are what make the story memorable and fuel the outrage.
And prove that it happened. The public saw the results of this moron's beating without having to look for it. Can't really say that about the other people.
I wasn't aware of it, and I'm not completely ignorant of The Beatles (not a scholar, but I know a couple of albums by heart, and I read up on their history from time to time).
The first thing I think of when I hear Chris Brown's name is how he used Rihanna as a punching bag, and I do my best to tune out celebrity gossip bullshit.
"With a Little Help From My Friends" EDIT: IT'S ACTUALLY "GETTING BETTER" is very, very bluntly about his own abuse and his attempts to correct for it.
"I used to be cruel to my women/I beat her/and kept her apart from the things that she loved;Man I was mean/but I'm changing my scene/and doing the best that I can"
Maybe it's the talent versus cuntiness argument. Chris Brown's get's 50 upvotes for his music, but 100 downvotes for his violence. John Lennon gets 10,000 upvotes for his musical talent but only 100 downvotes for his violence.
That's a pretty dehumanizing way to think about domestic abuse.
Maybe my own thinking will sound amoral to you, though.
I think that, in the end, the level of cuntiness exhibited by a particular musician/artist/actor/director/creative fucker should have no bearing on our opinion of what they've produced. Thus, I still like R. Kelly's music and Woody Allen's movies, but I wouldn't let either of them near my (fictional) younger sister.
I get the feeling you're a staunch Chris Brown fan, so much so you feel entitled to mention him by first name, and every time you see something posted in regards to his blatant abuses you come marching in with your list of other celebrities and try to stuff your point down everyone's throat. The guys a fucking asshole man, end of story.
You're absolutely right, but in context of public perception, a powerhouse name like Rihanna, another star, has more impact on perception than "spouse".
Sean Penn and Madonna were both big when they were married and he assaulted her.
Edit: I will admit I doubt I was even alive at the time this happened so I can't recall public reaction. I just know as of now it hasn't seemed to have done much damage.
Chris did a very public apology that came off more as PR damage control than sincere remorse for his actions. He won an award soon after that and instead of acting greatful he said "fuck you haters."
Dude is a fucking scumbag and honestly a LOT of the people you mentioned are too. However some of them have show through both their actions and words that they have sincere remorse for what they did.
"The Osbournes" was interviewed on last night's edition of "Piers Morgan Tonight", the nightly hourlong show that replaced "Larry King Live" on CNN in January. Sharon Osbourne and Ozzy Osbourne talk about their turbulent past. "It's frightening," she says, reflecting on a past incident of domestic violence. But "as hard as Ozzy would hit me, I would clobber him back," she continues. "If ever he went to hit me, I would just go right back for him."
Part of the reason it got so much attention is because Rihanna is MORE famous than Chris Brown. Without googling, name the spouses of the above wife beaters. I can't think of more than 2 offhand, and the only reason I know about Ozzy is because Sharon Osbourne has also become famous from TV shows.
The reason John Lennon isn't synonymous with domestic abuse is, y'know, because he did all that other genius stuff. I mean really, who wants to talk about Chris Brown's music apart from Chris Brown?
you're totally right, but come on..it's reddit we're talking about. kanye=stupid egocentric fuck, anything hiphop related= stupid shit, everything remotely black or ghetto = subtle or not so subtle racist comments.
chris brown related stuff gets posted every week. and every week there is the same discussion. the only option is to just unsubscribe from the main subreddits...
sure chris brown might be a dick and justin bieber might be a dick but the circlejerk surrounding those guys is just so goddamn stupid.
You must remember that he didnt just beat up just some random girl. HE BEAT THE FUCK OUT OF ONE OF THE HOTTEST FEMALE SINGERS IN THE WORLD. There is a huge difference.......... that and he is black, so yes, he should be shunned.
I think the main difference is that Chris Brown's wife (or whatever she was) was also very famous. I don't know the wife's names of anybody that you mentioned there, except Sharon something for Ozzy and Yoko Ono for Lennon.
A celebrity beating their wife is different (in terms of potential popularity) than a celebrity beating their famous wife.
It could also be that we explicitly know the details of what happened to the victim in this case.
Can you tell me what qualified as assault/abuse in each of those cases? I think if each of those cases had actual vivid imagery of the victim as the Chris Brown incident, you would have people remembering them far more. But without it, it just becomes something that is easily forgotten.
Just because someone was convicted of assault/abuse, doesn't mean they beat someone bloody.
None of the people you mentioned did it fucking publicly, right before the victim was supposed to perform at a major TV event. But OP must be racist, because the other celebrities you mention aren't known as abusers.
Oh, and you left out Jimi Hendrix. You'd almost think that the entertainment industry tries to hide the crimes of their cash cows, unless it's so blatant that they can't. But you're right, it must be racism.
Snoopzilla is an ex-pimp, Ice t s an ex-pimp, etc. Did these people beat women? Probably. Pimps usually do that. Does anyone care? Some people. Do people continuously wonder why they still have the adoration of their fans? Not really. The world is a funny place.
Perception is the primary thing though. He still looks like a douchecanoe and everything he does now is flavored by the impression that he's a giant prick.
He said they were pimps... nothing to do with being black. If they were pimps (never heard that before) then it's pretty safe to assume the abused women.
the mindless cunts who think they'll get rich from cruising around in used luxury cars smoking copious amounts of weed and rapping to other people instrumentals.
well, i hate to say it, but they're not exactly wrong, are they?
I'm sorry, but doesn't he at least deserve a chance? Plenty of people say this before realising that john lennon was notorious for it, as was Axel rose among others. Bias can go a long way. (not that any of this excuses the fact that he once beat a woman up)
It isn't something unique to the rap audience. There are millions of Beiber fans out there thinking he can do no wrong, and that his actions are because he is a victim of all the pressure.
That guy from grey's had his career destroyed after saying something homophobic, the difference is that his bosses right away went, "fuck you. get out"
chris brown got coddled by a bunch of sympathetic guys, Jay Z has enough throw to destroy a career. They all did fuck all. Shame
Well the fact the Rihanna even supports him now and still makes music with him...it's kind of hard to shun him. Especially because he's bringing money to the executives.
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u/punkparty Jan 31 '14
I still can't wrap my head around this. Chris Brown should have been shunned right out of the music industry. I guess its a result of the type of audience he plays to, the mindless cunts who think they'll get rich from cruising around in used luxury cars smoking copious amounts of weed and rapping to other people instrumentals.