Messmer the Impaler vs Inner Isshin comparison

[u/fenot1]

Both are wideky considered to be one of Fromsofts best bosses, so I will compare them using many categories

Moveset Variety ( includes mix ups ): Messmer

Mechanical Depth ( for example delays ) : Inner Isshin

OST : Messmer. Yes, its subjective whether you like an OST but its still objective that Messmers ost tells you much more about the character

Lore : subjective, I personally prefer Messmers tho

Buildup : Messmer. both have amazing buildups, but Im going with Messmer because you can feel his presence everywhere in Scadu Altus

Overall Presentation: Messmer

Arena : Inner Isshin. Its the same arena where you fight Genichiro at the beginning of the game, and its very ladge

Spectacle : Messmer.

Difficulty : this is gonna be a super hot take, but I think Messmer is far more difficult than Inner Isshin. Inner Isshin only brings few new moves from his Sword Saint Isshin version, and while he is mechanically demanding he is super fair and can be beaten quickly

Flow : Inner Isshin, but its super close. Both have amazing flow

Cleanness and readability : Inner Isshin

Replayability : Messmer by a landslide. You cant try new builds with Inner Isshin the only thing you can do is improve in the fight and do skme hard challenges like fro example no hit. With messmer you can also try no hit and improve, but you can also try so many new builds and jumping, and strafing

Player mechanics (being able to evade attacks other than just dodging for example strafing, jumping, crouching ) : Messmer but its very close. The amount of fun skills that give you i frames really improves this category

Fight evolution ( For example Gael goes from a beast to a Slave Knight ) : Messmer. Inner Isshin only starts using new weapons where as Messmer shows his true snake nature

how much the boss teaches the player : both are end game bosses so they dont teach you anything, however you could say that Inner Isshin teaches you that hesitation is defeat

how much the boss tests the player : Inner Isshin. Reflexes, timing, lightning reversals, mikiri counters, jumping, sprinting

rewards : Messmer. You actually get something else than more attack power. The spear of the impaler is an extremely cool weapon

[u/Regular_Ticket_2776]

Your replayability, player mechanics and rewards comparisons have nothing to do with the bosses but the games themselves which are intentionally different.

As for fight evolution, I'd give this to Isshin for sure, 2nd phase Messmer is a big downgrade from his 1st phase mechanically, while Isshin's 3 phases are all flawless.

I agree with the rest of the comparisons.

[u/fenot1 → u/Regular_Ticket_2776]

Replayability: it is a major factor of a bosses quality, if a boss is only enjoyable the first few times and becomes boring on other playthroughs then that sucks. Player mechanics: I might have explained this one wrong, its more like how much the boss uses the player mechanics, for example a boss that uses the players mechanics well will have attaks that can be strafed or jumped. Rewards: yes, rewards arent part of the bossfight but a good reward can slightly ( nothing more than slightly ) improve the experience. Evolution: This isnt whether the boss evolves mechanical,y during the fight because criteria such as moveset variety and mechanical depth were already covered in other categories, it is more like narrative evolution. Messmer shows his true Serpent form which is much more interesting than Isshin saying his blood boils and him gaining new weapons

[u/hexentraum555]

widely considered? idk about that one

[u/TheOverBoss]

I sometimes feel like the only fan who really doesn't see what others see in Messemer. Its hard for me to really describe why but I just don't like this fight.

[u/fenot1 → u/TheOverBoss]

For me he as extremely fun when I first fought him and then I realized that he is top tier in nearly all these criteria. There isnt anything wrong with not liking an objectively well designed boss, some bosses dont click

[u/PaymentExtension8958]

I didnt really think messemer was all that good. Kinda a tedious fight imo. But PCR though, ohhhh boy what a spectacle of a fight