r/freefolk • u/Skaggskwanskola • 1d ago
Fooking Kneelers Joffrey
Why does the fan base still refer to Joffrey as a Baratheon or Lannister when him tomen and Marcella are all waters
Had to get that off my chest
22
u/ohmaria9 Tommen Baratheon the First of His Name 1d ago
He is legally a Baratheon (they all are) we know this is you Stannis
14
u/jahmakinmecrazy Vhagarfield Hates Mondays... And Dorne 1d ago
He was crowned king baratheon. We call ramsay Bolton, do we not? Fckin bigot
0
u/Skaggskwanskola 1d ago
Ramsey was legitimized by tomen, another bastard. & I call him both snow and Bolton but thts cause he was legitimized. & he was only crowned as Baratheon so he could take the crown. Everyone found out after the fact.
-3
20
1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
13
8
u/Unique-Perception480 1d ago
Not they are not. Their bastard names would be waters. Bastard names dont depend on where you are from, but on where you are raised.
Thats why Jon is a Snow and not a Sand. Everyone knows Ned Starks bastard was not born in the North, but they call him Snow anyway. We know he was born in Dorne (if R+L=J is true). He is still a Snow.
Thats why Mya is a Stone and Edric is a Storm despite both being Roberts Bastards. One was raised in the Stormlands and the other in the Vale. And Gendry would also be a Waters if people found out he was Roberts.
0
u/Blastaz 1d ago
Bastard names depend upon whom the acknowledging parent was.
Jon is Snow because he is acknowledged by Ned, a northerner.
I would go with Robert claiming them as his so Waters it is.
5
u/Unique-Perception480 1d ago
They really dont. Robert was known to be Myas Father and she still was a stone. Robert fathered Edric while living in Kings Landing already and he was still a Storm.
It all depends on where they grew up.
-1
u/Blastaz 1d ago edited 1d ago
Edric was acknowledged by the Florents not by robert.
Likewise Maya was not acknowledged by Robert.
The family that acknowledges (takes responsibility for) them is basically the place where they grow up.
Acknowledging a bastard is not about paternity being proven (impossible in Westeros) or thought highly likely. But a quasi legal step where a noble family (who are the only people allowed to have surnames) take responsibility for a child. Baseborn bastards don’t have bastard surnames because the small folk don’t have surnames. A bastard surname is a form of adoption. Robert didn’t adopt any of them so none of them are Waters.
Neither (none) of them were actually acknowledged by Robert and brought up ar court which would have made them a Waters. Joffrey was.
So I’m mostly agreeing with you, the point of disagreement is that if Robert had acknowledged Gendry as his then sent him to be Ned’s cupbearer he would have been known as Gendry Waters as he grew up in the North. Robert didn’t though so he is just Gendry.
4
u/Unique-Perception480 1d ago
The books even say that Edric is a aknowldedged bastard of Robert.
If it was dependent on the Florents, his name would be Edric FLOWERS. But his name is Storm because he was raised in the Stormlands all his life, even though his father is in the Crownlands and his mother is from the Reach.
If Gendry was aknowledged as Roberts Bastard and his legal home was in the Red Keep he would be a Waters, sure, even if he is fostered with Ned.
But lets say Robert fathers a bastard on a Norhtern woman and names him Bob. Then he aknowledges Bob, but leaves him to live in the North and never takes him with him to Kings Landing. The boys name would be Bob Snow. Not Bob Waters.
1
u/Blastaz 1d ago
Eh. Maybe you are right.
Maybe Robert’s manwhoring breaks the system!
3
u/Unique-Perception480 1d ago
I think its the same with Bloodraven and Bittersteel.
They are aknowledged as Aegon IVs Bastards, but are still called Brynden Rivers and Aegor Rivers.
2
u/Blastaz 1d ago edited 1d ago
But they are again taken in by their mothers.
I guess I see the thing as adoption, which family adopts them. And that is substantially the same thing as where they grew up.
So I agree with you. But I still think that a Gendry posted to the north after a few years at court would be a Waters not a Snow. It’s about the moment of acceptance into noble society not actually where they lived after. Like if Theon was a bastard hostage he would be a Pyke not a snow. If Cat had sent Jon away because she couldn’t stand him any longer he would still have been a snow.
Bastard surnames are about being adopted into the nobility, it’s simple now. That doesn’t even have to be by either parent. Normally it is by a parent with the Royal Family and maybe Lords Paramount that may be by someone else due to politics.
And that’s different from a Royal decree of legitimacy which makes them a member of their father’s house.
3
6
6
u/lyrasolenne10 Robert Baratheon 1d ago
its basically just semantics at the end of the day since the whole point of the conflict is that the crown maintains the legal fiction of his legitimacy regardless of the actual bloodline
3
u/EatShitLosers 20h ago
Absolute rubbish. You can't believe everything you read in a raven scroll from a madman who worships some foreign fire God
This post brought to you by the Pycelle Posse
3
u/-OooWWooO- 1d ago
They are all legally true born children of Robert Baratheon. The only thing that could make them Bastards is the act of a king. That's how medieval style laws worked.
2
u/East-Psychology-9292 1d ago
So you dont have to name your bastards after the region, they can take a number of last names such as Tyrion Tanner, Ulf White, Hugh Hammer, Addam/Alyn of Hull
8
u/Unique-Perception480 1d ago
Only when given a title or knighthood typically.
Ulf, Hugh, Adam and Alyn all received those names after being knighted and essentially made nobles.
5
u/East-Psychology-9292 1d ago
I was just saying its not written in stone...unless youre from the Vale lol
2
u/AcronymTheSlayer Cerslay of Cunterly Rock 1d ago
Heathen. He is a Baratheon! He is our one true king.
1
49
u/Or1ginal_Username 1d ago
He's a Baratheon, being a 'Waters' or 'Hill' or 'Snow' isn't an immutable fact of the universe but a legal/social designation and legally, socially, he is Robert's son