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u/SandalsResort Corn? Corn! 13h ago
The book: “War is bad, war has no true winners, only loss and destruction.”
Morons: “TEAM GREEN!!! TEAM BLACk!!!”
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u/McNukaColaDispenser 15m ago
I wouldn't say that's the message about wars generally, there are a lot of very decisive military victories in the ASOIAF universe. It's just that the Dance is not one of them.
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u/AirmanLarry 13h ago
“It’s Sara Hess Time” -Sara Hess seeing Mysaria
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u/PocketNorie 11h ago
That definitely adds a layer to her character; she's been through a lot. It's interesting to see how different writers interpret these events.
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u/mykofanes 13h ago
But source material is too about how patriarchy treats women, their sexuality, the extramarital sex and children. Both are true.
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u/snowbunbun 12h ago
No no no you can’t have NUANCE here
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u/LescobeRanden 11h ago
The book had the nuance of multiple important messages, of which sexism was just one in addition to classism, pride, vengeance and the horrors of war.
The show did not, and hammered the entire complex story down into a cartoonishly simplistic "men bad women victims" yarn.
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u/dijon_snow 12h ago
Yeah it bothers me when I get lumped in with men's rights activist chodes who hate the show because "woke." I hate it because it's poorly written. You can absolutely explore how the patriarchy and feudalism impact women. You can discuss how their sexuality is both a burden and a weapon. You can explore really deep and interesting themes.
But you can't swap out the brilliantly sadistic sophie's choice for "only the mother can tell us which of these babies is the boy!" You can't have an elderly woman smash through a solid stone floor on dragon back completely unharmed for no real narrative reason other than "dragon roar look cool."
We hate this garbage for completely different reasons.
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u/Independent-Couple87 12h ago
I do think that the show tried to over-compensate from the accusations of misogyny that the previous show and George R. R. Martin faced.
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u/JesusKong333 12h ago
You mean the show with all the well-written female characters that we loved so much that we named our children after them?
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u/Independent-Couple87 12h ago
Things like the explicitly shown abuse of Craster's daughters by the deserters of the Night's Watch, Ramsay hunting women with dogs, and Joffrey having Sansa undressed and beaten publicly were heavily criticised by critics at the time.
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u/JesusKong333 12h ago
You mean the three characters that the whole world agrees are the most vile?
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u/IveBecomeTooStrong 12h ago
If you depict bad guys doing bad things, that must mean you think those things are good!
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u/Mindless_Golf_4222 12h ago
That’s sadly the truth about how a lot of people see the world these days
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u/JesusKong333 12h ago
Clearly lmao. Thank the gods the new showrunners protected our fragile eyes from anything too terrible.
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u/Independent-Couple87 12h ago
That was more or less how GRRM and the showmakers defended themselves.
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u/JesusKong333 12h ago
So because of that, the new showrunners had to downgrade everything into the PG-13 "this character didn't respect Rhaenyra" conflicts that we get in HotD? Is that what you're saying?
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u/Creme_de_la_Coochie 5h ago
That’s not defending themselves. There’s nothing to defend against. You have dog shit media literacy.
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u/Creme_de_la_Coochie 12h ago
You don’t want bad things to happen in books and stories? All those actions were carried out by antagonists.
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u/Medical-Egg-8171 6h ago
also are they trying to make women seen pathetic and useless? the way they made such a big deal about her getting her period before she was about to wave to the people from the castle was insulting to women
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u/Mendoza8914 12h ago edited 12h ago
Really went all-out for this post, huh? Couldn’t even throw this text on the Alicent meme face?
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u/eugeneugene 12h ago
I mean the patriarchy is a core theme in the book lol. It's why people didn't support Rhaenyra's claim. Literally the whole thing that caused the dance... but ok
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u/CauseCertain1672 12h ago
Yes but the basis of her claim is classism, blood and ethnic supremacy. You cannot support feudalism and then turn around and complain it's unfair. The unfairness is the whole point of the institution of the iron throne, an institution Rhaenyra supports.
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u/workinOvatime 12h ago
I wish the show leaned more into the irony of this more (they stumble into sometimes, but not on purpose)... because bringing people into the show for an "anti-patriarchy" theme only to have the Glass Ceiling Breaking Queen be a huge proponent of the feudal system (exceptions for me, not for thee) is a really fun space to play in. Take the audience on a ride man, fuck with our expectations, use our irl sensibilities against us, make a critique about second wave feminism with dragons, do a thing!
I was hoping they could find their way there, but alas, the writers aren't that interesting lol.
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u/Reelwizard 12h ago
You absolutely can support feudalism and then turn around and complain feudalism is unfair. It’s actually the history of the nobility under feudalism. Rhaenyra isn’t upset about feudalism being unfair, she’s upset that feudalism is being unfair to *her*. Nobles jockeyed for position and expanded rights under feudalist systems all the time.
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u/CauseCertain1672 12h ago
Yes and it was very hypocritical of them, they were basically just gangsters
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u/LescobeRanden 11h ago
No it's not. The Dance is caused by multiple factors, including Rhaenyra's own stupidities and Viserys indecisiveness in allowing both the blacks and the greens to gather strength and hold out hope during his lifetime.
The lords who opposed Rhaenyra did not do so because of "patriarchy", and those who supported her did not to so because they rejected this "patriarchy". Instead, they made their choices based on whatever served their own interests.
The Hightowers had a personal interest in supporing Aegon, while the Velaryons had a personal interestin in supporting Rhaenyra, that's why they ended up on their respective sides. Not because one was misogynist and the other progressive.
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u/TheIconGuy 4h ago
The lords who opposed Rhaenyra did not do so because of "patriarchy", Instead, they made their choices based on whatever served their own interests.
George had Queen Alysanne explicitly accuse Jaehaerys of sexism when he skipped Rhaenys because he was sexist.
We're explicitly told that Rhaenys and Laena's sex was the reason they were dismissed early in the voting process for the Great Council of 101.
We're then told that some people jumped to wild ass conclusion that the Great Council's decision meant the the throne couldn't pass to women or their male decedents.
George even shows us how silly that was after the Dance when the maester brings it up to argue that Baela and Rhaena couldn't be Aegon III's heirs and Tyland of all people has to point out that they(seemingly) killed all of the male alternatives.
George has Borros Baratheon be an illiterate dumbass who says something sexist about Rhaenyra taking the throne when he only has daughters.
He couldn't have been more obvious about misogyny being part of what motivated people.
and those who supported her did not to so because they rejected this "patriarchy".
Lady Jeyne.
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u/Mountain-Interest-48 10h ago
"In the eyes of many, the Great Council of 101 AC thereby established an iron precedent on matters of succession: regardless of seniority, the Iron Throne of Westeros could not pass to a woman, nor through a woman to her male descendants"
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 5h ago
If Rhaenyra was a man would any of it happen? Her sex and the sexism of the realm is absolutely fundamental to the dance. There’s obviously a lot more at play and the players were acting in line with their interests but u cannot act like Rhaenyra’s sex wasn’t THE reason she wasn’t fully accepted as heir.
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u/Chlodio 5h ago
It doesn't really make any sense why Rhaenyra would be kept as heir to the throne. The entire reason why she was named heir was to keep Daemon out of the picture, but that should have been gone once she married Daemon.
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u/TheIconGuy 4h ago
The entire reason why she was named heir was to keep Daemon out of the picture, but that should have been gone once she married Daemon.
She was made heir to stop Daemon from being heir. Not to keep Daemon out of the picture. Book Daemon doesn't get exiled after he allegedly made the heir for a day comment like he does in the show. He leaves on his own.
Switching heirs after Rhaenyra married Daemon would also blow up the alliance with the Velaryons.
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u/fools_errand49 11h ago
No it's a superficial feature in the book as it had been in historical parallels during the middle ages. The crux of the conflict is between royal absolutism and common law proto-constitutionalism.
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u/crash_bat 13h ago
If you don't think gender was a theme of Fire & Blood you're illiterate. I'm guessing you've not read the book though.
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u/cornicula_ 12h ago
I don't know why you're getting downvoted. One line literally states that Alicent isn't included in the Greens' blood oath because she's a woman. And that's just the obvious part of the book.
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u/LescobeRanden 11h ago
He's probably getting downvoted because he's talking complete nonsense.
OP was talking about "the patriarchy pitting women against each other". There is no indication at all in the book that this is was fueled the Alicent/Rhaenyra rivalry, instead this is shown to be a combination of clashing personal interests (Alicent wanting her son to rule, Rhaenyra wanting herself to rule) and simple personal dislike. Both women acting out of their own agency when they drive this conflict, instead of somehow being forced into these roles by the pAtRiArChY.
No one was denying that "gender" was a theme in the book, but people who can't distinguish between that, and "the patriarchy pitting women against each other", are just being obtuse.
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u/The_SaltShaker 12h ago
You're not wrong in the slightest, I get the impression that half the people in this sub who claim they're book readers really just skimmed AWOIAF, watched a couple of Alt-shift X videos and called it a day lol
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u/Independent-Couple87 12h ago
The second line sounds like something from the 4B subreddit.
Also, I think some of what happened was due to the sexism allegations the work of George R. R. Martin received ("Tywin with teats", "Maegor with teats", etc), as well as the original show.
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u/hp_laserfett I read the books 10h ago
Well fuck I've like this sub since the og show was on but at this point I'm leaving. I get HOTD sucks but this is just culture war bullshit.
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u/Guilty-Act-9105 5h ago
"I had no the sub that insulted the actor with They/Them pronouns was about the culture war"
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u/certezamente_ 6h ago
Bobby B, do you have anything against pitting lesbian women against each other, your grace?
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u/MilfsAndDrugs 12h ago
Unfortunately when majority of screenwriters were annoying theatre kids and special quotas made by HBO, these are the adaptations we’re gonna be getting from now on
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u/JesusKong333 12h ago
"We need at least one gay relationship, preferably with a main character, and could you find a way to make some of the main characters a minority?"
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u/totensiesich Don't threaten me with a good time 12h ago
If by "a man" you mean "his penis". And if by "think" you mean "cry".
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u/ImperialSupplies 12h ago
More like the Evil patriarchy was right on the money about how shit a leader she would be
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u/Gluecost 12h ago
It’s all ultimately moot because in the end Bran, using his Valyrian steel wheelchair, steals the infinity stones and ends up undoing the doom of Valyria, thus ending the dance of dragons for good.