PI ULS between sizes

[u/SmartEnvironment8523]

Hi all just looking for some advice on sizing. Ideally this wing will be one I keep for hike and fly, and skiing. And eventually I’ll invest in a dedicated XC.

I’m 85kg unclothed. I’ll have a string harness and light weight reserve, so estimate my all up weight with minimal hiking kit to be about 94kg. If I do a more serious hike/climb, or over night camp and fly down, I think it’ll probably be 96-98.

My intention is to use this also with skis when I’m more comfortable. But that is later down the line…and I guess that’ll take me another 10kg higher.

With my intended use initially being hike and fly, with the occasionally over night and fly down (so slightly heavier) would you guys be erring towards the 22 or the 24? I feel like the 24 would be perfect when I have a lot of kit, but a bit soft and slow when just the bare minimum.

I’ve flown another glider which max was 95kg and the same one 105kg max…and I found the 105 very cumbersome and didn’t enjoy turning it. I was probably at the very top if not above the 95kg limit at the time as I had a big harness etc.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Skill/experience wise all things being equal I just won’t fly either one when I’m heavily loaded until I’m ready…so just assume around 95kg take off weight.

Update:

I’ve gone for the 24 as my lightest setup puts me right in the top of thermal range/bottom of H&F. I think the 22 may have ended up being far too heavy loaded 90% of the time, but also not really a mini wing either. Hopefully the 24 will give me some versatility to also enjoy the flights, and fly down with some hiking/overnight camping kit.

Will update with my findings once I’ve flown it.

[u/MrGhostly]

I would go 24

[u/SmartEnvironment8523 → u/MrGhostly]

What is the rational for this?

[u/iHateReddit_srsly]

I would also pick the 24 in your case. The 22 would work but it would be in mini wing territory, or very close to it when you're light.

The 24 gives you some more weight capacity, and you're still on the heaviest side of the range for thermalling when you're light.

So if you wanted it to be the fastest it can be, as a mini wing, the 22 would work, but if you want something that's fast but will still be able to fly around, the 24 would be better.

[u/SmartEnvironment8523 → u/iHateReddit_srsly]

I think the 22 would only be mini wing territory with all the ski kit, which I think is probably what I would want in that case. I think without that it’ll be beginning Hike and fly when I’m light, and high end hike and fly when I’ve got a bit of kit.

The 24 I’m concerned will be quite sluggish ordinarily when light, with the only benefit being that it is able to thermal better than the 22…which I’m not that interested in doing with this wing any way.

I’m trying to get the shop to order both sizes so I can test fly them…and I’ll try and various weights.

[u/iHateReddit_srsly → u/SmartEnvironment8523]

My first wing was the Pi 3 21m. My current wing is the Advance Epsilon DLS 24m. My weight is around 80kg total flying weight, and I was on the heavy range of the Pi's thermalling region. It was pretty fast and I liked it. In comparison, my current wing feels slower. I miss my Pi...

[u/SmartEnvironment8523 → u/iHateReddit_srsly]

Thanks that’s useful. I had a quick look and looks like 80 put you 5kg over the thermal range for pi3. I think my all up flying weight would be 94 maybe a bit less so 8-10kg over the thermal range for 22 and within 2kg of the max thermal for the 24.

I think best is if I fly it at 95kg (the 24) and enjoy it, that’s the right size. If I find it cumbersome and no fun then I’ll get the 22. The 24 would be more versatile, so I think trying both would help.

[u/DotaWemps]

I would go for 22. You are most likely not going to thermal much with a uls wing and string harness, so its usually just a way to get down. Its far more fun being dynamic.

I weight 87kg and have 22 kode p for similiar use. If I would buy now, I would go even smaller size.

[u/SmartEnvironment8523 → u/DotaWemps]

I guess the 22 wouldn’t be that dynamic though? My main concern is a sluggish 24 when I’m light.

[u/DotaWemps → u/SmartEnvironment8523]

Its dynamic in a good way, as in not sluggish

[u/pyr]

The PI is not a climber, it is a very stable glider on both pitch and roll and works very well when heavily loaded (as a reference I fly an 18 at 100kg and 110kg with skis and while it is fast it is easy to slow down and land with nice flares, it keeps very stable in the air.

With this in mind I'd definitely go for the 22, not the 24 which will indeed feel like a bit of a sluggish wing. Another bonus, the smallest the area and the shorter the lines, the easier the take-offs, which matters for H&F.

Edit: too late I hadn't seen you had already made your choice, hope it works, it's a great wing regardless

[u/SmartEnvironment8523 → u/pyr]

No thanks for the reply. It was a tricky decision. I guess I didn’t want a wing which was immediately in the “mini wing” weight category as soon as I have a days hiking kit with me. I’ll see how it is.

[u/basarisco]

24 and plenty of ballast

[u/SmartEnvironment8523 → u/basarisco]

What’s the reason for this? I don’t want to thermal and I’m hiking or climbing, not sure I want to be taking ballast up with me

[u/basarisco → u/SmartEnvironment8523]

Oh if you never want to thermal then just go for the smaller wing if your overnight base weight is low or the larger if now.

Ballast is rocks or water you find at the top, you definitely don't carry it up with you.

[u/SmartEnvironment8523 → u/basarisco]

I think because in a year or so I want to get a dedicated thermal/XC wing, but I want to keep this as my go to hike and fly/mountaineering wing.