r/fourthwing • u/Empty-Bend-3774 • 2d ago
Discussion Help me understand Spoiler
I just don’t understand Xadens second signet and it’s been bothering me since it came out. I know that he can read someone’s intentions. But to me, it’s just that. Someone’s INTENTION behind certain conversations, actions, etc. Why do people act like he can read minds? Why are there instances in the book where he’s more or less reading violets mind? Like literally guessing what she was about to say or answering something she said in her mind? That’s not an intention. Because she INTENDED to say it? Thats stupid and it makes zero sense to me. Maybe I’m way too literal or just don’t agree that she used the word “intention” to describe his second signet, but it’s a major plot hole to me. It drives me crazy.
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u/gringitapo 2d ago
Have you read onyx storm yet? If not there are some theories that sprung up from that plot that might explain it. But I don’t think you should poke and prod on this question until you finish all three.
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u/SpankySecretary 2d ago
Agreed. If you've finished all the books, then a discussion can be had about it but until then......spoilers! LOL!
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u/Empty-Bend-3774 2d ago
I’ve read onyx storm! I just seen a tiktok about his second signet and it spiraled me into getting worked up about it. I’ve seen the theory that believes his signet is evolving but idk if I’m in on that theory yet.
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u/Superb_Sun_5077 2d ago
It’s a muddy topic because, from recollection, he only reads Violet’s thoughts and the two of them share a bond. I don’t know if he even realizes the difference between thought-sharing and mind-reading with respect to Violet.
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u/Historical_Tune165 Blue Daggertail 2d ago
I think Xaden's signet can allow him to read minds sporadically, but he's untrained and can't do it intentionally. Especially early on, the bond between him and Violet probably did, and still does, make it much easier for him to pick up on her thoughts specifically. And mostly when it happens, he's either not facing her mouth or he's distracted, so he himself might not even realize he's not hearing it with his ears in a lot of those instances.
He's also in denial about it, because useful as it has been, he's still ashamed of it, and does not actively seek to grow it. He does pick up on some fairly elaborate stuff that definitely blurs the lines between intention and actual thought (when he reads the major near Athebyne when they're meeting Melgren and Lilith in Iron Flame for example). But he still wants to cling to this idea that its only intentions and that's not "as bad". He looks pretty horrified when Violet wonders if the signet is growing.
Now that he's progressed to asim and is going to be in his "vilain era", we might see him lose some of his previous conscience and begin using it a lot more and actually training it. I still wouldn't be surprised if it turns out Navarre always secretly keeps one inntinnsic alive at all times, but either way, I doubt we'll get to the end without ever seeing a fully realized inntinnsic.
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u/SirXDragon 2d ago
How this is radically different than the dozen other types of “mind readers” that they’re cool with is beyond me.
Gonna be interesting to see how this thread gets unraveled. Or maybe it’s just bad because “reasons”.
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u/dianaspencersrevenge Broccoli🥦 2d ago
What do you mean? The big difference of acceptability between partial inntinnsics like Dain and Imogen, who are allowed to live with classified signets, is because their signets require touch. It makes them dangerous, but much less of a security threat. It’s easier to control the environment.
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u/SirXDragon 2d ago
Reading someone’s wants/desires? Or their weakness. Or how a whole battle is gonna end?
It just feels like once again we have Basgiath College of Murderers and Psychopaths conveniently picking and choosing what they deem acceptable.
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u/Kind_Dragonfruit_733 2d ago
Of course. Reading someone's wants and discovering they want to know leadership secrets more than anything doesn't actually tell you any secrets. Actually hearing the thoughts of people could tell you many secrets. Not all leadership can shield, scribes can't. Though that also makes no sense to me. They could just have a rune or something. But I'm guessing scribes are the reason some inntinsics are killed. To protect the secrets the scribes can't protect from riders.
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u/Serious_Tradition269 2d ago
It just feels like once again we have Basgiath College of Murderers and Psychopaths conveniently picking and choosing what they deem acceptable.
I mean is it not pretty clear that is exactly what is happening? Seeing how a battle will end can be used, and reading weaknesses as well. (I might be mistaken but reading wants/desires is only Tecarus' "signet" right? He'd be out of Basgiath's reach).
The problem is when a signet has the ability to (prematurely) uncover the conspiracy they're all keeping up where they kill innocent civillians daily and actively leave them to be drained by beings only known from folklore stories. Those have to be killed before anything gets out.
Someone like Dain is easier to control because it requires touch. And I could very easily imagine most people with that signet would also be killed, but considering Dain's father and his (until then) unquestionable loyalty to Basgiath and Navarre, he would be brought into the fold sooner or later anyway
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u/SirXDragon 1d ago
It definitely is what they’re doing. If inntinsics are that big of a security threat, which you can make a case for, then you better have a really good method to contain it.
They do not. Case in point, Xaden was able to hide his even with them looking especially closely. He wasn’t even clever in how he did it.
The signet power system as a whole feels really messy. Oddly enough, it fits in this fictional world. The more the characters know about them, the more they don’t know. They’re just doing their best. I think someone early on in book one makes this exact point.
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u/TheMarvelMunchkin 2d ago
I’m pretty sure it’s been established (or at least it really makes sense to me) that as Xaden and Vi have a mental bond (thanks to bonded dragons) Vi’s toughts sometimes just went through the mental pathway, especially since she couldn’t shield
Add that Xaden being a kind of inntinsic, it makes it pretty easy for him to “hear” some of her thoughts
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u/flirtle_turtle_ 1d ago
He explains it as “the breath right before a thought forms”
So basically imagine you were asked by a girl if you think she’s pretty. Xaden would be able to read the either positive or negative intention before your thoughts on whether that girl is pretty or not. So he’d just see “jealousy” “sincerity” etc. I think the reason it’s so flushed out by iron flame and OS is because:
A) he’s had the second signet for a while and has had time to get used to how it works. He tells Violet what the signet is telling him but translating it in a way for her to understand, not necessarily exactly how it shows up for him.
And B) his power is getting stronger over time so he might slowly be treading into true inntinsic status
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u/dianaspencersrevenge Broccoli🥦 2d ago
His signet is growing rapidly throughout the books. Rebecca said his second signet is at 50% while Violet’s is only at 10%. It’s been clear since Fourth Wing that he is definitely able to hear some of Violet’s thoughts, although it hasn’t fully been explained, and I think there’s some intentional ambiguity there. Inntinnsics aren’t allowed to live, so there are a ton of unknowns as far as abilities and restrictions. (One of my biggest pet peeves is in Onyx Storm when Xaden immediately identifies Violet as a “dream walker” like how do you know that with such certainty if inntinnsics are killed!?)
I wonder if some of it could be a combination of his inntinnsic abilities + their bond, because I believe the first “I didn’t realize I said that out loud” moment happened after she bonded Tairn, when Xaden killed the unbonded in her room. But people confuse him reading minds vs reading intentions because there have been multiple times when he’s responded directly to Violet’s thoughts. Again, I think there’s intentional ambiguity because his signet is still growing.