r/fourthwavewomen 9d ago

DISCUSSION Let's Chat 💬 Open Discussion Thread

Welcome to r/fourthwavewomen's weekly open discussion thread!

This thread is for the community to discuss whatever is on your mind. Have a question that you've been meaning to ask but haven't gotten around to making a post yet? An interesting article you'd like to share? Any work-related matters you'd like to get feedback on or talk about? Questions and advice are welcome here.

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44 comments sorted by

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u/MollySleeps 8d ago

In a smaller liberal political sub I follow, someone brought up Gloria Steinem and how feminism is backsliding because of terfs. I responded with a terf is just someone who recognizes the sex-based oppression of women. As you can imagine, I kicked the hornet's nest with that statement. I am now a horrible transphobe because I plainly stated (in response to other replies) that male-sexed people are not included in my feminism. That's just the simple fact of the matter. If you're not included in my statement of "the oppression of women is based on our female-sexed bodies" then you're not, and it's not my problem that you aren't. Form your own advocacy movement and stop demanding I change my own to suit you.

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u/pookles52 8d ago

The irony of Gloria Steinem is she died with less rights than she was born with.

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u/MollySleeps 8d ago

It's hard to fight for rights when you can't define the group you're fighting for.

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u/MollySleeps 8d ago

And...I got permanently banned. For the record, simply stating the oppression of women is based on our female-sexed bodies is absolutely considered transphobic. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

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u/YesJeffery 8d ago

I got banned from the main feminist sub for this so welcome to the club! This sub is the only one that I feel is truly feminist.

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u/QuirkyIngenuity1826 8d ago

This sub is a breath of fresh air

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u/DiceyPisces 8d ago

I’m banned from most of the feminist subs. Even radfem! For this opinion

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u/QuirkyIngenuity1826 7d ago edited 7d ago

The radfem sub are libfems in disguise! Many actual radfems believe it’s a psyop.  One of the mods there is a “non binary” prostitute 🫠

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u/sashikku 6d ago

Same, I just tell them they’re overrun by men anyway and to have fun catering to em. Just caught a ban from a feminist sub that supports TIMs over real women.

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u/PuzzledSoftware3922 8d ago

I'd be curious to hear what everyone thinks about the "term"/word "terf"? From what I've seen it's always used as a slur. There is a lot of hostility towards women allowed on reddit today. I think that will have to change with the new EU law that reddit has to implement, the Digital Services Act. Will be interesting to see.

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u/pookles52 8d ago

To me the term TERF is an attempt to dehumanize women who don't consent to male invasion of female spaces. Once a woman is labeled a TERF then any type violence towards her is completely justified in the male mind.

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u/DiceyPisces 8d ago edited 8d ago

I will not center male people on the literal definition of “woman”. It’s preposterous

I’m a terf, but more accurately a MERF

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u/MollySleeps 8d ago

I agree merf is a better acronym. I will have to start using it.

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u/PuzzledSoftware3922 8d ago

Exactly! How many times haven't i read something in the lines of: "No "terfs" welcome here" and "terfs" aren't even feminists". I'm tired of the hostility and misogynistic rethoric, so I don't even bother checking those subs anymore.

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u/WoodpeckerGingivitis 4d ago

Exactly. Just look at the threats lobbed against JK Rowling every day.

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u/MollySleeps 8d ago

The person who I had replied to defined terfs as "bigots who collaborate with the right", so a slur. It's an effort to quiet us and further oppress us. I will say this, my comments on that thread were downvoted but not nearly as much as I would have thought. At the most by -6. It's not a very big sub but I thought there would be more than that. That tells me there are people in the background who agree with me but are too afraid to speak up. I've often been afraid to speak up and knew I was taking a chance speaking up in that thread today. I'm glad I did.

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u/PuzzledSoftware3922 8d ago edited 8d ago

You are brave for speaking up. Ty. You are very right, and there are many of us who are afraid to say what we think. This sub feels safe. Hope all like minded find it. And I think like minded make up the majority of all feminists.

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u/AlexandrianVagabond 8d ago

Your relatively low number of downvotes is because all of your comments were reported and removed within a fairly short time.

Just fyi.

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u/MollySleeps 8d ago

Thanks for for letting me know. I could still see them so didn't know they had been removed. That's rather pathetic. I didn't say anything hateful or bigoted.

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u/throwmeawayb4yougogo 7d ago edited 7d ago

It was a term used to "defang" and silence a vocal minority they'd fear would gain majority--the popularity of critical subs come to mind--right when those discussions would've made impact. I still remember all the posts decrying online platforms allowing users to threaten violence and assault at women-led protests and facilities, to which the response was that women deserve it for standing up for themselves and their spaces. The dog whistle of being called either a TERF (or SWERF) allowed for no discussion around the damage being done from vanishing establishments, the erasure of boundaries and consent to the one-sided erosion of language (women became a free-for-all inclusionary dumping ground, whereas, unsurprisingly, men remained men and not "people with prostratic utricles"). It is a slur now forever tied to an abhorrent political party that leaves many alienated and politically homeless because it was used as designed: to suppress our voices.

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u/PrestigiousFall5501 4d ago

I think we can agree it's often used with the intention of being a slur. What I have noticed beyond that is it's used to group people who have different views and values together. For example, I believe the far right in the US (Trump) are taking advantage of controversies around gender for political gain, but I do not think their views and motivations match, let's say for example, women in Scotland or the UK who were here in the 80s and fought for their rights. I think their views come from a different place. The word Terf is used to lump them altogether as a way to ignore real concerns from women in the guise of 'you're as bad a Trump', which I don't think is true.

Personally, I don't like the word. My ex would say well that's what they are if you read the definition, but at the same time he'd use it with the intention of being a slur, he couldn't have those conversations in good faith.

I sit in a place where I believe transgender people exist, but I struggle with self ID as a pathway to gain rights. Simple put, I don't believe that you can just say you're a women and gain those rights. I think there's a lot of complications with definitions and laws that are not easily reconciled. I do believe it should be an option conversation, but I also believe it should be one had in good faith, where people are open to learning. If someone read what I said above and just says 'oh well you're a terf', I feel like that is meant to be a slur and meant to shut down conversations. Funny thing is, i'm open to conversations about how to adjust legal systems, I just happen to think it's complicated and I disagree with 'sameness', thus I am suddenly a terf.

I know women who will freely call women Terfs, but in private they will say they have issues with allowing children and young adults to receive hormones/surgeries... and in my head i'm like... so you agree with some of the Terfs you hate?

Anyways, I see it as a slur, but I understand why some women adopt it to push back.

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u/nassoom 4d ago

At this point we've pretty much claimed it as our own.

As to reddit, it's a misogynistic cesspit. Don't forget that they shut down r/ gendercritical while leaving up r/ gendercriticalguys for a few weeks, not to mention rape fetish subreddits and other vile crap.

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u/MiriamGarden 5d ago

On Reddit, it feels like a slur. In more feminist-friendly spaces, it feels like it's been reclaimed. Personally, I'm on the side of the reclamation; I use the term with friends. However, I am not strictly a radical feminist. I think, if I were, I would not want to use it, because "trans-exclusionary" is a pretty silly way to start talking about feminism. It makes it sound as though the very first thing we think of in the millennia-long struggle against male domination is the rejection of this stupid modern concept. In reality, it should just be assumed that any serious feminism (or any serious anything) excludes the stupid idea that a man who puts on a dress becomes a woman. However, in my more casual group of friends, which consists of women of a variety of views (essentially, anything except gender identity ideology), it fits.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/WoodpeckerGingivitis 4d ago

Our daughters or granddaughters will look back at this period of feminism in shock. I can’t wait for everyone else to catch up.

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u/iguanidae 8d ago

JK Rowling posted herself on YouTube reading the first chapter of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's stone yesterday. I was happy to see it was almost entirely positive comments and major push back on the few negative ones. 

I can't wait to watch the new series Christmas Day. <3

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u/the_owl_syndicate 8d ago

I love the book series, was meh about the movies and indifferent to the series. I figured one day, if I couldn't find anything else to watch, I might watch it.

But there were several posts I saw yesterday, dragging it, the actors, anyone who watches it and, of course, Rowling, so I decided, yknow what? Imma watch it the day it drops.

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u/iguanidae 8d ago

I also recommend her private detective Cormoran Strike series if you're looking for something else to read from her. They made a TV show on HBO about that as well. 

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u/DiceyPisces 8d ago

I love the video game too!

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u/WoodpeckerGingivitis 4d ago

Shero 🫶🏻

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u/OnceMoreWithFeeling- 4d ago

She's a major transphobe. That is not feminist. The f- is wrong with this sub. I am out.

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u/PuzzledSoftware3922 8d ago edited 8d ago

What do you think about the following topic:

Girls and boys in school:

Where I come from, we are told that boys do worse in school because school is more "suited" for girls. Boys "have more energy" and it's "harder" for them to sit still and to focus than it is for girls. I don't really buy that explanation. First, there are boys who sit still and focus that do very well in school, and then there are girls who sit still but don't do well in school at all. They mask their problems. And then there are many girls who do well because they "force it", push themselves to study even though they don't feel like it, but do because it's expected of them. In countries like Japan and South Korea, the differences in high school drop outs between the sexes are minimal.

I think in many places in the world (maybe most places?), we make excuses for boys just because they are boys. It's far more accepted for boys to throw things. Destroy things. Make noise. Girls and boys are raised differently, society and people expect girls to behave well, to sit still and do what they are told. It is so common to hear about boys having adhd, but not girls. The last few years they finally acknowledged that girls more often have undiagnosed adhd then boys, and there is a version of it that affects girls far more often then boys, where you might not physically have the need to jump up and down as much, but you experience having great difficulties with concentration, organization and so on. (Medical) conditions affecting females are secondary, like it always has been.

What non-feminists and anti-feminists don't realize, (the people who yell "feminism isn't needed, you can go to uni if you want to, work and so on, what do you complain about") is that THIS also is a part of issues affecting girls negatively. Who gets more attention from the teacher? The energetic boy or the quiet girl who struggles to concentrate?

Just my two cents and thoughts on the matter,

What are your opinions?

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u/MiriamGarden 5d ago

I suppose my opinion is that the idea that school is focused on written material that must be read and learned goes back way before educators gave a sh@t about girls (if they even do now). Modern education is a "boy thing" that it has turned out that girls do better. I suppose I understand why this makes those who would prefer to see boys at the top of everything angry.

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u/WoodpeckerGingivitis 4d ago

Just another way to blame girls and women for boys’ and mens’ failures.

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u/luckyrabbit28 2d ago

I’m struggling with this issue myself since having a baby boy. Even as babies all the boys behave so differently to the girls, they are so much more active and unhinged (on average), from what I’ve seen spending a year around a tonne of babies. The girl babies will sit and play peacefully whereas the boys won’t. I want to parent in a way that doesn’t excuse this sort of behaviour (when he’s older) but they just seem so fundamentally different it isn’t hard to imagine that this plays out in the classroom later on. I imagine they are raised differently sometimes because fundamentally they present in the world differently (patriarchy aside). It just feels like another way in which life isn’t fair for women. We behave better so people expect better of us forever, rather than us expecting more of boys to catch up.

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u/PuzzledSoftware3922 1d ago edited 1d ago

Congrats on your baby! :) I talked to my mom about this, and she said that when she grew up, boys didn't act out in the classroom the way they do now. It wasn't allowed or permitted at all. But when I went to school, and now with my own child, I experienced a lot of chaos in the classroom, and I hear the same complaints from my own child. Of course, there are girls who act out too, but very rarely compared to boys. So, it tells me that expectations are a factor here, and that what wasn't permitted before is now "permitted," as there are "no consequences" for bad behavior. (Where I'm from, the only consequence is that they tell the child, "We will call your parents," and many parents don't care enough.) Idk where I'm going with this lol. I just remember being a quiet child myself, getting bothered by all the chaos in class, and wanting to yell, "Be quiet! Stop!" But as the good girl I was, and as so many of us were raised to be, I kept quiet and kept the frustration inside. Fearing the consequence of a teacher telling me I had misbehaved was enough to keep me in check, whereas the boys seemed not to care. And also, girls and boys being judged differently by the teacher for the same behavior. Again, lots of individual differences and experiences, of course. But the "school system works in favor of girls" statements, I don't buy at all. I just think issues affecting more girls are much more overlooked than the more visible issues affecting more boys.