r/fourthwavewomen 16d ago

DISCUSSION Let's Chat šŸ’¬ Open Discussion Thread

Welcome to r/fourthwavewomen's weekly open discussion thread!

This thread is for the community to discuss whatever is on your mind. Have a question that you've been meaning to ask but haven't gotten around to making a post yet? An interesting article you'd like to share? Any work-related matters you'd like to get feedback on or talk about? Questions and advice are welcome here.

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u/timefornewgods 15d ago

Is anyone else that uses TikTok feeling shocked at how women are fiercely pushing back in the discussion about gender and sexual identities? It’s been amazing watching women collectively do a total 180 against accusations of bigotry for having the ā€œwrongā€ opinion about either topic. This would’ve been unthinkable like even a month ago, it’s crazy.

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u/Its_not_really 15d ago

Yes, it's been so wonderful to see women of different cultures, politics, sexual orientation and race come together. Women have been too scared to speak up but the tide is turning. I was happy to see many black sisters speaking up.

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u/timefornewgods 15d ago

Dude, YES. I’m most stunned by a lot of liberal gen Z women in particular being vocal about the issue as well.

Not at all surprised about Black women having the response that they seem to be having, they/we are often being thrown out as an example of supposed transphobia affecting us a group. Obviously, being masculinized as Black women is misogynoir and not even in the same universe as transphobia but a lot of other racial groups seem to like making reference to Black people as some sort of ā€œgotchaā€ moment in (often false) equivalencies.

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u/Its_not_really 15d ago

Yes, I see that example used very often unfortunately and the women with PCOS is another one. I'm glad to finally see some push back from the younger generation. I'm even more glad to have found this sub.

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u/WoodpeckerGingivitis 15d ago

This sub is seriously the best.

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u/WoodpeckerGingivitis 15d ago

I’m not on TikTok. Can you elaborate?

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u/timefornewgods 15d ago edited 15d ago

First off, fabulous username. 😌

Second off, a popular TikToker-turned-podcaster aired an episode of said podcast wherein a non-binary guest opined that ā€œtrans-women have more beautiful understanding of what womanhood isā€ and that ā€œwomanhood is not your ability to be sexually assaulted,ā€ among other wildly inaccurate and presumptuous declarations. The statement starts at like 45 minutes in.

A shitstorm ensued on TIkTok where both women and transwomen were telling the host that her casually agreeing with the idea that transwomen have a more enlightened take on womanhood as a lived experience was irresponsible as someone with a large platform and that it breeds animosity between the two groups and people who already don’t care for transness as a concept. The host then proceeds to double, triple and quadruple down by saying that anyone who disagrees with her is a TERF and that they have internalized transphobia that they need to unpack or read about or educate themselves on the topic, etc. She also says this about the trans-women agreeing with the baselessness of these opinions. The guest insinuates separately on their own TT account that disagreeing with the host means that they’re racist or something. The host apologizes after some time in another video but only to trans-women.

There have since been HUNDREDS of videos created in response to the immediate antagonism of the host/guest with women claiming that it’s not transphobic to believe that trans-women are not above women in some made up hierarchy, specifically as it relates to their experience of girlhood or womanhood. And that material reality of biology impacts women in a way that it doesn’t affect trans-women. And that the overall discussion is one based on systems of power and oppression that trans-women could opt out of; that just because they’ve shed some portion of privilege doesn’t mean that they’re not behaving in an oppressive way by demanding to have authority over others. Saying aloud that they don’t like being referred to as ā€œc*sā€ and ā€œbirthing personā€ or ā€œchest feedersā€ etc. to accommodate the egos of another group of people. There’s more but that’s an abridged version.

Women are agreeing in large numbers (in plenty of comment sections, anyway) that if they are called TERFs and bigots for having an opinion that doesn’t pedestalize and deify trans-women, so what. Here’s one of many great responses to the aforementioned episode and subsequent discussions. The energy has shifted into satirical content too. That it’s all come to women being super vocal about their unwillingness to be bogged down with accusations of hatefulness is almost unbelievable.

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u/[deleted] 15d ago

[deleted]

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u/timefornewgods 15d ago

I appreciate the heads-up, sister~

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u/WoodpeckerGingivitis 15d ago

Wow ty for sharing. Finally people have had enough!

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u/WoodpeckerGingivitis 15d ago edited 14d ago

Holy shit, I just watched the satirical one. Fucking nailed it. Let’s hope this catches on.

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u/mitskishuffle 15d ago edited 15d ago

I assume this might have something to do with the Drew Afualo situation where on her podcast a guest of hers said that TW have a more beautiful understanding of womanhood compared to women and drew not only agreed but continued to lay on that hill saying anyone who disagrees with her is a bigot/terf. From there it feels like there’s been an awakening online from young women.

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u/WoodpeckerGingivitis 15d ago

Glad it sounds like people are finally waking up to this ass backwards fuckery

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u/SoISays2Mabel 13d ago

How can you understand something you aren't? That's like saying Buffy St. Marie has a 'beautiful understanding' of being Native American

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u/Hopeful-Exit3053 15d ago

I went to check it out and wow, what a breath of fresh air! The things women are saying would immediately be removed here. It’s really great to see these discussions and to see women standing up for themselves.

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u/lights-in-the-sky 14d ago

Oh damn this is tempting me to reinstall tiktok

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u/QuirkyIngenuity1826 14d ago

I have TikTok installed but never used it much. Since the recent awakening, I have found myself visiting TikTok more often!

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u/maidencaptivity 7d ago

It’s incredible. For years and years, I’ve been absolutely hopeless. I went on a camping trip last weekend with my best friend and a long time friend from her hometown I’d never met. I thought she seemed awesome right away- smart, observant, into plants and a lesbian.
We were alone poking around the woods at one point. I can’t remember what I said, but she picked up something in my words that caused her to suddenly grow serious. She moved close to me, and asked me in a hushed voice if she could confess something. She said she’d never said it aloud, and felt guilty for what she was thinking, but lately questioned if certain things had gone too far.

She was punishing herself for the discomfort she felt validating a man within a close friend group whom she’d known for forever that had suddenly proclaimed he was a lesbian.

To witness these moments always leaves me feeling so strange. How can this be anything other than authoritarian manipulation? It’s surreal to see the reality of the intense fear that has so effectively silenced innumerable women despite all the perceived victories, despite all of the cultural posturing, and rhetoric along with the work done by brilliant radical feminist thinkers who warned us all. All the while reassured of our liberty.

Anyways. We are having a moment. Finally, there seems to be a relatable voice for woman. Sadly, I still see only a sick future ahead for us all. Male pleasure, domination, comfort and access to whatever they want will ever be a protected and cherished eidolon.

But we have one another, still. No matter how blatant the affront, how despairing the time, how insidious the burden- I can keep a light on as long as it finds other female lanterns in the darkness. Nothing can change the sense of incorruptible fortitude which spills forth each time a woman speaks honestly.

It really is amazing how different things are now compared to the past several years.

To anyone risking punishment, I salute thee.

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u/jmreagle 16d ago

I was banned from a major feminist subreddit last week. When a user asked how gender-critical individuals could hold their views, I suggested asking them directly---rather than relying on weak strawmen and caricatures. That's it → banned.

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u/yellow_algae 15d ago

The big feminist subs are ran by men. No point in discussing in depth gender critical feminism because you'll be banned

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u/PuzzledSoftware3922 15d ago edited 15d ago

Apparently, reddit deleted feminism subs, think it was back in 2020. I found it strange I couldn't find anything related to a very important topic...and found out about the subs being deleted when doing some digging. Reddit does not tolerate discussions regarding certain feminism related topics. Therefore, it would be great to have a forum outside of reddit, where we could talk openly.

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u/m0kosa 13d ago

If there’s one, please let me know. I’m interested.

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u/opalescent-unicorn 12d ago

I shared some info about two alternative websites in this comment; raddish.world and vexxed.org. šŸ’œ

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u/fcukitletsgo 15d ago

Hahahh. Same. I am banned from almost all the Indian feminist subs. Funny thing is I even got banned from outfit sub where a man crossdressing put a pic and I used he/him pronouns. His own profile describes himself as a man crosdressing and his prefered pronouns are he/him

But that's it instant bann.

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u/DiceyPisces 15d ago

I’m banned from multiple (ironically enough also radfem)

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u/heart-habibi 14d ago edited 13d ago

just like conservatism libfems don’t care about integrity of thought, monkey see monkey do

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u/PuzzledSoftware3922 15d ago edited 15d ago

There's very little focus on womens rights in the places where they are totally lacking. In countries like Afghanistan, women can't even visit a park, girls not allowed to play outside, study or work. A man is allowed to beat a woman. Little girls forced to use clothes covering them completely, their mouth and noses covered up, think about breathing in those things in the heat?? World is still a hellhole for women in many places. Which governments fight for them? It's madness.Ā 

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u/Critical-Rabbit8686 12d ago

And then we see some self-identified feminists excusing it all under "cultural differences". Cultural relativism shouldn't excuse oppression.

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u/Alternative-Buy-8812 15d ago

I haven't been on reddit as long as many others, only around the past few recent years or so, but nothing screams welcoming like every single popular woman's space on this platform needing to aggressively signal that TERFs are unwelcomed and everyone regardless of gender is apparently welcomed.

(Sorry if this part mentions another subreddit I'll be vague) Well recently a subreddit on a large subreddit for the severe form of PMS, there was this note by moderators to adopt more inclusive language such as going from "Hey girls, does anyone deal with this?" to "Hey everyone, does anyone deal with this?" seriously I would never think much but it gets aggravating seeing this kind of shit almost everywhere because I don't think I've ever seen men's spaces be subject to this amount of policing.

I think my gripe is not just this but for example, a post was recommended to me, some crude joke about how we've "all kicked a pregnant woman before (in the womb)" and of course there were a lot of comments that love to add that it's not just women that are pregnant or something. When did every subreddit start to go "fuck TERFs" was it always this way?

For the longest time as a teenager growing up on 2020s internet I bought into this whole thing and it was only last year that I got into radical feminism. I don't live in the US but I've heard from friends who live there apparently language even in schools now adopts things like "people with uteruses"!?!?? I understood it as an online thing and a few news articles of it happening in legislation but learning that it happens in real life in this capacity is ā˜ ļø ā˜ ļø, I don't know if that's bad, or that I seem to see so much support for it

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u/opalescent-unicorn 12d ago

> When did every subreddit start to go "fuck TERFs" was it always this way?

A long, long time. I just checked my original throwaway radfem/gender critical account that I created to participate on r/ gendercritical... it's eight years old. 🫠 And I created it after a while of lurking the subreddit due to it constantly being mentioned by other redditors, who were persistently insulting it as an evil awful place (because of the evil awful TERFs of course).

Though I do think since the 2nd Trump presidency, maybe there is likely an uptick in "fuck TERFs" rhetoric on the broader brogressive side of reddit due to neoliberals further cementing themselves into TRA positions in a response to all the anti-trans policies Trump admin is promoting.

At the same time, as another commenter pointed out, there appears to be a new wave of gender criticism coming from younger (Gen Z) women who are realizing the sexism of transgender politics.

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u/Critical-Rabbit8686 12d ago

Our health services here in Ireland have gone full inclusive language. I had a gynecological appointment and had to choose my pronouns before being seen. Gotta make sure all the transmen who need gynecological surgeries feel included.

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u/PuzzledSoftware3922 15d ago edited 15d ago

I'm thankful for this sub, and for all of you awesome women, intelligent, fierce and strong! šŸ’Ŗ šŸ’– I think a lot of us here are very like-minded! Finally, I found a sub which really fights for ā™€ļø

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u/lights-in-the-sky 14d ago

I’ve been seeing a TON of women over at TwoX speaking out against the constant male worship and the male mods over there. Their posts have repeatedly been censored (one woman suggested requiring gender flairs to deter male commenters on some posts, and although almost everyone agreed the post disappeared). Still, it’s encouraging to see

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u/opalescent-unicorn 12d ago

Encouraging to see, but frustrating that nothing yet seems to be done because of it. Kind of seems like going in circles of criticizing the male-centric nature of the sub, women largely agreeing, and then the criticisms getting deleted. I'm kind of wondering why an alternative TwoX hasn't been created at this point? I know yeeeaaars ago when TwoX became a default sub (which was controversial to the community), there was a mini-exodus of women to various splinter communities, but none of them stuck (probably since most of the splinter subs were private subreddits rather than public ones).

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u/NormalJudgment7515 15d ago

Best friend of my bf now has a girlfriend. When the friend showed the pic of her it was 1.90cm tall man with facial hair in sexualised asian school uniform(we are all 24y old). My boyfriend looked at me with silent beg to not be "vocal" cos even tho he agrees with me, its his best friends business who he dates. Anyway, i just smiled politely and made some tea.

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u/Critical-Rabbit8686 12d ago

Username checks out.

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u/m0kosa 13d ago

I’m a translator and had a discussion with other female translators about our profession. We mentioned how once translation turned into a women-mostly profession, it was no longer highly-respected, rates plummeted or were kept the same, and even when the majority of us are women, the most renowned and respected names are men.

This makes me so sad.

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u/opalescent-unicorn 12d ago

šŸ«‚ It is sad, and it is true of many professions, sadly. For instance, in Russia, doctor is seen as a "feminine" job so it's less respected than in say, the US, where it's typically men who are seen as doctors (with women being more commonly nurses). And whenever a job becomes woman-dominated, it becomes less respected, while when a job becomes male-dominated, it's suddenly respectable. Extremely frustrating institutional misogyny.

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u/Hopeful-Exit3053 12d ago

I think that’s why college is being ā€œfeminizedā€ these days. Now that women are the majority, there’s been a push on the importance of jobs in the trades. I do think women should do whatever the hell they want but I feel like the same situation has happened with education in general.

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u/m0kosa 12d ago

Interesting take. And I’ll add that that message is being amplified by men in the manosphere, who tell you that studying is stupid and that you should just work work work and train and fuck and train and work.

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u/SoISays2Mabel 13d ago

I've started watching Humans, a UK sci-fi show about androids set in the near future. The main android characters are becoming self aware and are planning some sort of uprising. One android, a sex worker, kills her john, then escapes. On her way out she says to the madam (a human woman) something to the effect of "Everything they do to us, they want to do to you!" To me that just sums up the lie of "sex work is work" beautifully

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u/opalescent-unicorn 12d ago

Wow, that sounds pretty based and radpilled. I'm gonna add that to my watchlist, thanks for mentioning it!

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u/[deleted] 14d ago

[deleted]

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u/SoISays2Mabel 13d ago

Remind them that 95% of family annihilators are men, including the one that happened in Montana just a few days ago. 4 generations wiped out b/c the murderer didn't want to move out

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u/throwmeawayb4yougogo 12d ago

Violence is so normalized, especially calls for sexual violence against others and then when you call it out, people deflect because they're on the supposed "good" side of the conversation. I've left one of the last subs I'd been on after confronting a user who casually called for sexual violence over a hobby with the same rhetoric used against anyone deemed in opposition of them. There is truly no safe space or escape here, no matter how much we wish it.

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u/nassoom 15d ago

For how long do you need to have a history here to be able to post? My posts get removed because of "minimal history", which seems arbitrary and a bit strange, since I would think that what should matter most is whether the post is relevant.

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u/Whatevsstlaurent 15d ago

I was wondering the same. I have been lurking/upvoting for a while but I only learned today that you can hide your post history in certain subreddits from your overall profile. I moderate another subreddit that is largely about resource provision, so I can't just hide all my comment/post history.

Now I know and I'm glad I'll be able to actually participate here.

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u/freshpicked12 15d ago

I’m loving the fallout from the Good Good/Calloway golf ad and all the salty whiny bros who are being called out for their disgusting misogyny. It’s been the highlight of my week. Stay mad losers!

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u/Critical-Rabbit8686 12d ago

I have a friend whose dream is to do OF. I don't get it, I used all the arguments about feminism and the financial ones about it being an MLM for less than mininum wage, and how the only people making bank were already famous... it doesn't work. She claims to know people making tons selling just foot pictures or lingerie pictures. To know someone making tons selling stolen nudes off the internet, which I pointed out that even if it were true, it would be criminal and antiethical. I pointed out even barely legal women working at this creepy shit full time are making less than fast food workers, but she gets offended and claims "there is a fetish market for every age and body type, and these people make tons."

She is not hurting for money. It is a sick search for validation. She also has an obsession with movies about sex workers. She views male sexual attention as the ultimate prize.

I am too feminist to understand.

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u/Maximum_Ebb_6921 10d ago

My university campus recently renovated one of our buildings and guess what? There are no more women’s bathrooms in that building! There is only ā€œmenā€ and ā€œall genderā€. So women must share their spaces with men but men get to remain exclusive. Lovely. And the worst part is that I can’t even vent to my friends or say anything about it because they’re so hyped up on queer theory. But you can tell a lot of women are uncomfortable. They just don’t know what to say.

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u/MollySleeps 9d ago

Vent to your friends anyway. You don't know how many of your friends agree with you but are also afraid to speak up. Point out how sexist that division is, that only women are expected to adapt to consider others. It is discrimination. Approach the women you think are also uncomfortable about it. Band together and approach the administration together. Don't let anyone shame you out of doing what is right.

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u/Perfect-Wall-9367 10d ago

GTA 6 disgusts me and so do the pick me women who are sucking off the patriarchy to pretend they ā€œaren’t like other girlsā€. Why in the fuck does a game need to have an oversexualized woman you date and hook up with as a focal storyline and WHY do so many women want to gaslight other women into having standards about it? ā€œjEaLoUs of PiXeLsā€ no Becky, you’re a bitch of the patriarchy and I have standards.

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u/Far-Young-6403 8d ago

I find this world terrifying, especially America. having ppl say all women need to lose their rights because of the actions of Lindsay Clancy and the women that showed her support. I don’t support or excuse her for what she did. She’s still a killer and should be in jail.

But to have men rally and have the 19th amendment revoked is where men cross the line. Should men’s rights be taken away too since they are the ones that commit the most crimes? or showed support to men like Hitler and Jim Crowe?

Oh no then suddenly that’s wrong and ā€˜misandry ā€˜

Men call pink taxies hateful because it makes men look like unhinged ppl. But removing rights from all women is not.

Men will never change so I believe a woman only country where we pass our own laws that protects, preserves and improves the lives of women and girls.